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Thirteen Orphans posted:Something you might find interesting, then: In Catholic Marian theology, Mary has a special place in devotion to Saints. God is afforded worship, known as latria. Only God is worthy of worship. The devotion which is given to the saints is called dulia. The Virgin Mary is the sole recipient of the highest form of devotion to a saint known as hyperdulia. So theologically she is afforded a higher place than the other saints, but in no way is part of the worship due to God alone. The other fascinating thing (I was raised Baptist but have converted into Catholicism in the past year and gone balls-deep in the history) is that the heavy focus on Marianism stuff is really fairly recent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneration_of_Mary_in_the_Catholic_Church is a good read. It reminds me of the kind of eschatological strain in Protestantism - it's really fairly recent that it's blown up and achieved a sort of disproportionate representation.
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Dec 30, 2016 15:52
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Transistor Rhythm posted:The other fascinating thing (I was raised Baptist but have converted into Catholicism in the past year and gone balls-deep in the history) is that the heavy focus on Marianism stuff is really fairly recent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneration_of_Mary_in_the_Catholic_Church is a good read. It reminds me of the kind of eschatological strain in Protestantism - it's really fairly recent that it's blown up and achieved a sort of disproportionate representation. I was wondering about that. I enjoy flipping through local Christian AM radio stations when I drive around because some of them are pretty out there. Ended up coming across what I am assuming is a mainstream Catholic station and there is a really solid chance that they are going to be talking about Mary in some capacity whenever I turn it on. Been shopping around for books and had kind of assumed it had always been a thing since Saint Irenaeus had things to say about it.
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Dec 30, 2016 16:10
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Bel_Canto posted:because gently caress you buddy you sprung my trap card, heathen. how could you know fornicating with myself is wrong unless you know it by the law of God written on your heart? someone needs to combine neo-scholasticism with presuppositionalism to form the ultimate smug theology. "how did you know to even ask the question 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' hmm?"
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Dec 30, 2016 17:24
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Cythereal posted:Question for Orthodox goons: I'm reading a history book that's partially about Russia, and there's been mention of at least a couple of foreign-born princesses who changed their names when they converted to Orthodoxy to marry into the Russian royal family. Is name changing on conversion a common thing in Orthodoxy, or is this just Russia being weird? It's not necessary even in the Russian church, but it is customary in all Orthodox churches, from what I know, especially if the convert's name is not that of an Orthodox saint. One is expected to have a Christian name that can be used in church documents or when praying for them. In Russia, on top of russifying the name, one was also expected to pick a patronym (in general, not just in case of conversion). For example princess Alice became Great Duchess Alexandra Fyodorovna. Alexandra because it sounds similar to Alice, and Fyodorovna was a customary patronym among foreign women marrying into Romanovs, because of the connection to the Feodorovskaya icon of the Mother of God that is believed to have helped Mikhail Fyodorovich Romanov to become the Czar. My own legal name is Polish, but when I was baptised as a child, my baptismal name was also that of an Orthodox saint with a similar sounding name.
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Dec 30, 2016 20:38
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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/us/church-militant-theology-is-put-to-new-and-politicized-use.html
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Dec 30, 2016 21:20
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Transistor Rhythm posted:The other fascinating thing (I was raised Baptist but have converted into Catholicism in the past year and gone balls-deep in the history) is that the heavy focus on Marianism stuff is really fairly recent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneration_of_Mary_in_the_Catholic_Church is a good read. It reminds me of the kind of eschatological strain in Protestantism - it's really fairly recent that it's blown up and achieved a sort of disproportionate representation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium oldest known written copy of this prayer is a coptic papyrus, 200-250 ad
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Dec 30, 2016 21:27
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Nice. Looking forward to Vatican conspiracy theories surrounding Trump presidency now that anti-Russian sentiment has made a comeback.
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Dec 30, 2016 21:29
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Paladinus posted:Nice. Looking forward to Vatican conspiracy theories surrounding Trump presidency now that anti-Russian sentiment has made a comeback. Anti-Russian sentiment came back because Putin made several dick moves. Wiggles the last nukes he has at Chechnya and Ukraine and just lives up to the James Bondian image of an ex-KGB man in a cyberpunk world.
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Dec 30, 2016 21:36
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Paladinus posted:It's not necessary even in the Russian church, but it is customary in all Orthodox churches, from what I know, especially if the convert's name is not that of an Orthodox saint. One is expected to have a Christian name that can be used in church documents or when praying for them. In Russia, on top of russifying the name, one was also expected to pick a patronym (in general, not just in case of conversion). For example princess Alice became Great Duchess Alexandra Fyodorovna. Alexandra because it sounds similar to Alice, and Fyodorovna was a customary patronym among foreign women marrying into Romanovs, because of the connection to the Feodorovskaya icon of the Mother of God that is believed to have helped Mikhail Fyodorovich Romanov to become the Czar. Why would you/the Orthodox in general do this? Can't think of any Biblical basis for it, and the only reason that springs to mind for non-religious reasons is "Orthodox church solidifying its hold on the populace."
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Dec 30, 2016 22:58
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Cythereal posted:Why would you/the Orthodox in general do this? Can't think of any Biblical basis for it, and the only reason that springs to mind for non-religious reasons is "Orthodox church solidifying its hold on the populace."
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Dec 30, 2016 22:59
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HEY GAL posted:everyone should be baptized with a saint/holy figure's name, the catholics do this as well No, everyone should not. At least Catholics don't seem to do it to the extent of changing your given name in general.
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Dec 30, 2016 23:04
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HEY GAL posted:everyone should be baptized with a saint/holy figure's name, the catholics do this as well This is going to come across as very crass but does that mean that, so that everyone gets the best good fortune, everyone should be named "Jesus"? Not even "good fortune" necessarily, but more I don't want to describe it as "luck".
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Dec 30, 2016 23:14
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Josef bugman posted:This is going to come across as very crass but does that mean that, so that everyone gets the best good fortune, everyone should be named "Jesus"?
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Dec 30, 2016 23:20
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Cythereal posted:No, everyone should not. At least Catholics don't seem to do it to the extent of changing your given name in general.
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Dec 30, 2016 23:20
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HEY GAL posted:yeah they do, adult converts to catholicism are baptized with a saint's name if they don't already have one Y'all are really weird.
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Dec 30, 2016 23:22
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HEY GAL posted:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/us/church-militant-theology-is-put-to-new-and-politicized-use.html the church militant refers to all believers on this earth let's equivocate it to whatever the gently caress michael voris is doing this is dumb and you of all people should know better than to post crap like this
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Dec 30, 2016 23:23
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Cythereal posted:Y'all are really Christian.
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Dec 30, 2016 23:25
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HEY GAL posted:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/us/church-militant-theology-is-put-to-new-and-politicized-use.html look at all that fuckin idolatry
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Dec 30, 2016 23:26
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The Phlegmatist posted:the church militant refers to all believers on this earth let's equivocate it to whatever the gently caress michael voris is doing I have a group of Quakers that would get very cross and not serve you an extra slice of lemon drizzle cake if you called anything about them "militant", though I think I understand what you mean.
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Dec 30, 2016 23:27
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The Phlegmatist posted:the church militant refers to all believers on this earth let's equivocate it to whatever the gently caress michael voris is doing
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Dec 30, 2016 23:30
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HEY GAL posted:according to mexico: theory checks out hay zeus and mohammed are the most popular names let's fight about it
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Dec 30, 2016 23:32
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The Phlegmatist posted:the church militant refers to all believers on this earth let's equivocate it to whatever the gently caress michael voris is doing in a pattern becoming distressingly common, the only thing worse than the article is the people it's talking about
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Dec 30, 2016 23:39
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Josef bugman posted:I have a group of Quakers that would get very cross and not serve you an extra slice of lemon drizzle cake if you called anything about them "militant", though I think I understand what you mean.
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Dec 31, 2016 00:23
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HEY GAL posted:it's the struggle within your own soul, kind of like the other version of jihad in muslim thought yeah exactly, we struggle against sin and the uncontrolled passions that lead us toward evil. through the grace of the sacraments and prayer we strive to tame our passions so that they direct us toward the good, and to repent of our sins so that we can become more like Christ, who was fully human but without sin. both of these are lifelong struggles that even the holiest saints faced right up to the end of their lives
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Dec 31, 2016 00:57
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Cythereal posted:Can't think of any Biblical basis for it You are so close to getting liturgical Christianity. So close... But jokes aside, there is some Biblical basis to changing one's name upon conversion. Maybe a certain guy named Saul will ring a bell. And as I said, no one is asking you to change your legal secular name, it's just for royalty having a name in the language of the people they're supposed to rule (or in Latin) was more often than not a thing. Hence Isabeau of Bavaria, for example, whose actual name was Elizabeth. Regular people who convert be it to Orthodoxy or Catholicism are usually only referred to by their Christian name in church documents and rituals. Also, remember that monks, patrarchs (and popes) have additional religious names that don't have to match with their baptismal/chrismation name. It's cool to have many names, IMO.
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Dec 31, 2016 01:06
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I talked to a friend who is emerging church and heavy sola scriptura he pushed me on extrabiblical stuff and I didn't want to push back too hard and make him angry so I just gave him info about the age of tradition and liturgy
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Dec 31, 2016 01:09
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Smoking Crow posted:I talked to a friend who is emerging church and heavy sola scriptura he pushed me on extrabiblical stuff and I didn't want to push back too hard and make him angry so I just gave him info about the age of tradition and liturgy pushed you how? as in like "you shouldn't be doing this stuff because my personal reading of the bible can't find it"?
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Dec 31, 2016 01:18
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Bel_Canto posted:pushed you how? as in like "you shouldn't be doing this stuff because my personal reading of the bible can't find it"? Trying to convert me to his way of thinking w/r/t works v faith and tradition Trying to logic me with stuff like how many works does it take to get to heaven and how can you trust tradition when man is fallible
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Dec 31, 2016 01:26
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Cythereal posted:Y'all are really weird. why do you post so much low-effort trolly crap in this thread nowadays. what happened cyth 
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Dec 31, 2016 01:30
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Lutha Mahtin posted:why do you post so much low-effort trolly crap in this thread nowadays. what happened cyth Depression and frequently having access to the computer during long, boring days at work coupled with general crippling loneliness and not being as funny as I think I am. Just didn't know what else to say - the whole concept of taking a special name for baptism or church purposes strikes me as very strange and I'm not sure why anyone would do it. But as with everything else concerning weird liturgical stuff, y'all seem to like it so go nuts.
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Dec 31, 2016 01:33
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Smoking Crow posted:Trying to convert me to his way of thinking w/r/t works v faith and tradition that guy just sounds like a terrible protestant neckbeard. please don't write off all emerging churches because of him, the ones i have been to are all really cool!
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Dec 31, 2016 01:34
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HEY GAL posted:everyone should be baptized with a saint/holy figure's name, the catholics do this as well This isn't necessary (though it may be a good idea), and the issue of the prime mover that people have brought up is a sound one. IIRC the Christian Name thing is a leftover of Roman persecution (along with telling catecumens to leave after a certain point in the liturgy) , but I would have heard that off-hand at least a decade ago.
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Dec 31, 2016 01:34
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The Phlegmatist posted:the church militant refers to all believers on this earth let's equivocate it to whatever the gently caress michael voris is doing Don't see any equivocation in the article. It lays it all out pretty clearly. HEY GAL posted:it's the struggle within your own soul, kind of like the other version of jihad in muslim thought Not just within your own soul though. Evil exists in the world, and has to be fought.
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Dec 31, 2016 01:40
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Cythereal posted:Depression and frequently having access to the computer during long, boring days at work coupled with general crippling loneliness and not being as funny as I think I am. Just didn't know what else to say - the whole concept of taking a special name for baptism or church purposes strikes me as very strange and I'm not sure why anyone would do it. well, don't be too hard on yourself. you have made many good posts in the past  for the issue here, it might help to keep in mind that Christianity existed for almost a millennium and a half before sola scriptura was invented. and the tradition of taking a new name upon initiation into a community is also a pretty common thing, not just in Christianity but in other communities too, and not even just religious ones. it's a bit weird for me personally, because while i thought it was odd that my Catholic friends in school took saint names, i actually kind of like the idea now. when i was confirmed, we didn't do anything with saints, but we had to choose a Bible verse. and now that i think about it, i wonder if this was kind of a watered-down compromise, like "hmm well we don't really do much with the saints, but there's like a big hole in the confirmation formula now! shoot, well, stick a verse in there, see if we can git'r close enough"
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Dec 31, 2016 01:55
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Lutha Mahtin posted:well, don't be too hard on yourself. you have made many good posts in the past I went to my step-sister's baptism over Christmas and they had to do this too Except everyone picked John 3:16, so i had to hear that 10 times
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Dec 31, 2016 01:57
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Can you pick any verse at all? Can you get Numbers 2:6?
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Dec 31, 2016 02:01
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Lutha Mahtin posted:well, don't be too hard on yourself. you have made many good posts in the past Yeah, I lean too hard in "tee hee y'all are weird" nonsense - I understand that tradition and liturgy and things like the baptismal names mean a lot to some people even if they don't to me. My church had something similar to a confirmation verse thing, they encouraged us to pick "life verses" in Sunday school to be recited at our baptism if we wanted to - wasn't required, but encouraged. For me, I cheated and picked two. Proverbs 3:5-6
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Dec 31, 2016 02:06
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Paladinus posted:Can you pick any verse at all? Can you get Numbers 2:6? I think so I would have picked John 11:35
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Dec 31, 2016 02:08
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were i ever in a position where it'd apply, job 23:4 seems obvious
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Dec 31, 2016 02:13
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Smoking Crow posted:Trying to convert me to his way of thinking w/r/t works v faith and tradition ew. fallibility of tradition is a garbage argument for sola scriptura because it requires a belief in the supernatural perspicacity of scripture, which MUST be extra-biblical because it comes prior to any exegetical and interpretive work. the problem with logic bros is that nobody ever taught them how to read
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Dec 31, 2016 03:37
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