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Wasting posted:It definitely can be, dependent on area, but that's kind of a generalization. Since there is really no practical way to know whether the woman you're paying is a victim of it, generalization is appropriate.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:54
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Angepain posted:so feel free to move on to something more exciting if you want I'd really love to hear what Factsareuseless thinks!
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Jan 2, 2017 01:56
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the white hand posted:Since there is really no practical way to know whether the woman you're paying is a victim of it, generalization is appropriate. This is a logical error. Just because a small subset -- again, depending on area -- is a victim, it doesn't mean that all exotic dance and performance is victimization. You're also demonizing sex work in this assessment. We're dealing in a spectrum of course.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:58
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Wasting posted:This is a logical error. Just because a small subset -- again, depending on area -- is a victim, it doesn't mean that all exotic dance and performance is victimization. You're also demonizing sex work in this assessment. We're dealing in a spectrum of course. What steps do you take to ensure that none of the sex workers you purchase services from are trafficked or exploited?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:01
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:What steps do you take to ensure that none of the sex workers you purchase services from are trafficked or exploited? Personally, I've never hired a sex worker, but are you insinuating that prostitution should be illegal?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:02
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Wasting posted:This is a logical error. Just because a small subset -- again, depending on area -- is a victim, it doesn't mean that all exotic dance and performance is victimization. You're also demonizing sex work in this assessment. We're dealing in a spectrum of course. Please walk me through the steps of getting a private dance, and tell me how you discern that your money isn't going to a pimp. e: you're big on "areas", which areas are free of this coercive dynamic?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:03
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the white hand posted:Please walk me through the steps of getting a private dance, and tell me how you discern that your money isn't going to a pimp. Should strip clubs, and further sex work, be illegal?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:04
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Wasting posted:Should strip clubs, and further sex work, be illegal? I asked you first.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:04
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You could perhaps go to a burlesque show instead. Unless those are also sex traffiked, I don't think the one where I live is.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:05
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Wasting posted:Personally, I've never hired a sex worker, but are you insinuating that prostitution should be illegal? Personally, why don't you leave that goalpost where it is and reexamine your "logic" in the light of women being human beings. What odds of inadvertently purchasing services from a trafficked woman are low enough to be an acceptable risk? One slave in a hundred? One in ten?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:06
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the white hand posted:I asked you first. It's a heuristic. I've only been to a few strip clubs in my life, but they are in generally decent areas, and perhaps I've been complicit in the victimization of women, but in major urban centres with high covers, it seems unlikely. I admit it's impossible to know. Now you.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:06
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Personally, why don't you leave that goalpost where it is and reexamine your "logic" in the light of women being human beings. What odds of inadvertently purchasing services from a trafficked woman are low enough to be an acceptable risk? One slave in a hundred? One in ten? So prostitution should be outlawed, and it's impossible for a woman to have agency in this kind of arrangement?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:08
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Wasting posted:Should strip clubs, and further sex work, be illegal? I think an issue here is that there's a difference between "should be legal" and "is currently moral to do in the present system in whatever country you're in". It's possible to be okay with this stuff existing in a theoretical properly-regulated framework where some proper checks exist to make sure that there isn't any exploitation, while still holding that engaging with it right now is a ethically dubious move because those checks are not currently in place and can't be trusted. For a flippant example, I am fine in theory with online bookstores existing but I try not to use Amazon because of their lovely business practices.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:09
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Wasting posted:It's a heuristic. I've only been to a few strip clubs in my life, but they are in generally decent areas, and perhaps I've been complicit in the victimization of women, but in major urban centres with high covers, it seems unlikely. I admit it's impossible to know. Now you. Tell us more about your slavery heuristic. What percentage of slaves is it acceptable for a man to use, and how would you advise him to avoid going over that number?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:09
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Tell us more about your slavery heuristic. What percentage of slaves is it acceptable for a man to use, and how would you advise him to avoid going over that number? I think the women that willingly work as exotic dancers would take issue with your assessment.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:10
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Angepain posted:I think an issue here is that there's a difference between "should be legal" and "is currently moral to do in the present system in whatever country you're in". It's possible to be okay with this stuff existing in a theoretical properly-regulated framework where some proper checks exist to make sure that there isn't any exploitation, while still holding that engaging with it right now is a ethically dubious move because those checks are not currently in place and can't be trusted. For a flippant example, I am fine in theory with online bookstores existing but I try not to use Amazon because of their lovely business practices. Yes, I agree completely. And Powell's books has a good online selection and doesn't torture it's warehouse workers as far as I've heard
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Jan 2, 2017 02:10
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Angepain posted:I think an issue here is that there's a difference between "should be legal" and "is currently moral to do in the present system in whatever country you're in". It's possible to be okay with this stuff existing in a theoretical properly-regulated framework where some proper checks exist to make sure that there isn't any exploitation, while still holding that engaging with it right now is a ethically dubious move because those checks are not currently in place and can't be trusted. For a flippant example, I am fine in theory with online bookstores existing but I try not to use Amazon because of their lovely business practices. Thank you. This is entirely reasonable.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:10
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Wasting posted:I think the women that willingly work as exotic dancers would take issue with your assessment. We're not talking about those women.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:10
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Angepain posted:We're not talking about those women. So what would you have of me?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:11
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Wasting posted:I think the women that willingly work as exotic dancers would take issue with your assessment. How do you and your heuristics advise a man to discern between exploited and non-exploited sex workers?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:11
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Wasting posted:I think the women that willingly work as exotic dancers would take issue with your assessment. Presumably the women that do not willingly work as exotic dancers wouldn't have any problems at all.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:12
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Wasting posted:It's a heuristic. I've only been to a few strip clubs in my life, but they are in generally decent areas, and perhaps I've been complicit in the victimization of women, but in major urban centres with high covers, it seems unlikely. I admit it's impossible to know. Now you. As far as prostitution goes, I think the Nordic model has a lot to offer: bust johns, provide services to sex workers and victims of trafficking. But as has been mentioned, there are a lot of unintended consequences even from that, one of which is that it's hard to get a cop to think in terms of not harassing "prostitutes". Strip clubs are a more complicated problem still, as are other businesses where sex is often covertly sold, like the bikini barista places. We have to look at how to keep men from siphoning off the profit and exploiting women.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:12
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Again, I'd love to hear from Factsareuselesss ^ Thanks, I see no problem with that
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Jan 2, 2017 02:12
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Wasting posted:I think the women that willingly work as exotic dancers would take issue with your assessment. Assuming you aren't able to tell and you know sex trafficking is a systemic issue with sex work, you're kind of trying to balance supporting sex workers by patronizing their service vs possibly supporting sex trafficking at the same time. Which I feel is a bit of a zero sum calculation at best.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:12
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One more thing:Wasting posted:I've only been to a few strip clubs in my life, but they are in generally decent areas What does "decent" mean to you and why would those characteristics shield women from exploitation?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:16
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I have committed the grave sin, as a man, of having visited a strip club in modern society. I submit myself to you, oh D&D. How shall I repent?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:16
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Wasting posted:I have committed the grave sin, as a man, of having visited a strip club in modern society. I submit myself to you, oh D&D. How shall I repent? You know you could just answer the question instead of being That Guy.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:17
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:You know you could just answer the question instead of being That Guy. I've already told you. I don't have an answer. What is your solution?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:18
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Wasting posted:I have committed the grave sin, as a man, of having visited a strip club in modern society. I submit myself to you, oh D&D. How shall I repent? can you commit to either engaging in a discussion or full-on trolling the thread please, this dancing on the fence is getting a bit tedious
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Jan 2, 2017 02:18
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Angepain posted:can you commit to either engaging in a discussion or full-on trolling the thread please, this dancing on the fence is getting a bit tedious There's no fence dancing and I find this a bit aggressive considering my original post. I feel like you are trying to chase me off.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:19
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Wasting posted:I have committed the grave sin, as a man, of having visited a strip club in modern society. I submit myself to you, oh D&D. How shall I repent? I think people are mostly objecting to your attempt to justify it going forward rather than having done it.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:19
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Wasting posted:I have committed the grave sin, as a man, of having visited a strip club in modern society. I submit myself to you, oh D&D. How shall I repent? Firstly you should stop being a sarcastic, sanctimonious prick about it and actually do a little critical thinking and introspection when asked to do so. I feel that'd be a great start.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:19
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Wasting posted:There's no fence dancing and I find this a bit aggressive considering my original post. I feel like you are trying to chase me off. We're actually trying to have a straightforward conversation with you about whether strip clubs are exploitative, and you're being defensive for some reason. I've been to a strip club before, but I wouldn't go anymore because I learned some things.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:20
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Who What Now posted:Firstly you should stop being a sarcastic, sanctimonious prick about it and actually do a little critical thinking and introspection when asked to do so. I feel that'd be a great start. I've really tried to be respectful of everyone's opinion on the matter, but I don't feel that same courtesy has been afforded me. If going to a strip club is an inherently heinous act, how do you propose I go forward as a heinous man?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:21
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If you want a fairly simple suggestion going forward I think "Don't visit strip clubs and donate your stripper money to womens' charities instead" would be a relatively good one.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:21
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Wasting posted:I've really tried to be respectful of everyone's opinion on the matter, but I don't feel that same courtesy has been afforded me. If going to a strip club is an inherently heinous act, how do you propose I go forward as a heinous man? If you go back through all the posts on this page you might be able to figure out that no one has criticized your decisions. You're inferring that.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:22
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the white hand posted:We're actually trying to have a straightforward conversation with you about whether strip clubs are exploitative, and you're being defensive for some reason. I've been to a strip club before, but I wouldn't go anymore because I learned some things. Okay, that's great. And I agreed with your model on how it could possibly be organized.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:22
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Wasting posted:I've really tried to be respectful of everyone's opinion on the matter, but I don't feel that same courtesy has been afforded me. If going to a strip club is an inherently heinous act, how do you propose I go forward as a heinous man? I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the idea that you're heinous from. You were asked how to ensure that women aren't being exploited and then started ranting about how everyone is against you. You're getting offended at phantasms and shadows.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:23
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Wasting posted:Okay, that's great. And I agreed with your model on how it could possibly be organized. Now, what is your idea of a "decent area" and what about those areas makes women less likely to be exploited there?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:23
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Who What Now posted:I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the idea that you're heinous from. You were asked how to ensure that women aren't being exploited and then started ranting about how everyone is against you. You're getting offended at phantasms and shadows. It's impossible for me -- or you, for that matter -- to ensure that any person, whatever business they are engaged in, isn't being exploited in that business relationship. Admittedly, this is an industry where it is more common.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:25
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