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OwlFancier posted:For fucks sake you dense motherfucker yes it does. Privilege is not an absolute quantitative term, it is qualitative. Why can't it be quantitative? Because you say so and because it would break your model? I get how you are talking about privilege qualitatively but how are you measuring it? This is an academic term that goes back to 1903 as someone said earlier in the thread. Is there any amount of privilege a black man can have (financial, familial, etc) that can ever cause him to be considered more privileged than a white man doing meth in a trailer park. If the answer is yes then it is not true that privilege is inherently white. If the answer is no, you can probably now see the reason why people get upset with the idea.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:54
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Rakosi posted:You guys might want to communicate to the alt-right that being white doesn't necessarily make you privileged anymore. Because that is actually news for probably quite a lot of them. "White privilege" is something that all white people have. But it doesn't mean that all white people are "privileged" in the sense of being hoity-toity poshos born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Obviously a homeless white drug addict from an abusive background would just love to exchange her white privilege for being one of the Obama girls! It merely means that all else being equal, the white person has an advantage over the black person. So if you take a white teenager and a black teenager from identical backgrounds, the black teenager is more likely to be accosted by police. But this is statistical. The black son of the mayor is less likely to be accosted by police than a poor white teen in a bad area.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:55
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Call Me Charlie posted:Privilege is a loaded term in a similar fashion as conservatives saying entitlements. It's meant to shame and silence those who are perceived as privileged. For example... It's certainly a loaded term if you feel like it's an incorrect statement that privilege exists, that white men (for example) have opportunities, freedoms and status that other groups don't. If your worldview is that black people are disadvantaged because they're inherently worse in some way than other people, it would feel like an attack to introduce the concept of privilege. So in that sense, yes it's divisive. It's not a loaded term, and it's not meant to shame or silence anyone, only to acknowledge a fact about humanity. It means exactly what it says. It's not a weasel word or hyperbolic, it just means privilege. It is not like conservatives who use the word "entitlements" to refer to things like Medicare or Social Security, because it's factually wrong to refer to those things as entitlements.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:58
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Who What Now posted:Whether or not you feel privileged has no bearing on whether or not you are privileged. And those white guys undoubtedly have a privilege that the non-whites that Wal*Mart would never consider hiring do not. Have you ever been to walmart? The Wlatons are evil fuckers who need to be 1793'd but of all the places I worked in my life walmart was the most diverse. Also not they wouldn't have considered their situation privileged outside maybe someone not in America like say a Syrian.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:59
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Rakosi posted:Why can't it be quantitative? Because you say so and because it would break your model? I get how you are talking about privilege qualitatively but how are you measuring it? This is an academic term that goes back to 1903 as someone said earlier in the thread. Is there any amount of privilege a black man can have (financial, familial, etc) that can ever cause him to be considered more privileged than a white man doing meth in a trailer park. If the answer is yes then it is not true that privilege is inherently white. If the answer is no, you can probably now see the reason why people get upset with the idea. If you are white you have white privilege, this does not go away unless you cease to be white, which you don't, as an overwhelming rule. If you are wealthy you have wealth privilege, this does not go away unless you cease to be wealthy, which you generally don't because wealth is self reinforcing. These concepts help to understand and explain your interactions with the world, no matter how poor you are you have a significant advantage when dealing with the police compared to a black person if you are white. No matter what colour you are you have a significant advantage dealing with the world in general if you are wealthy compared to someone who is poor. It is not productive to spend time trying to write top trumps rules for privilege, because that is not what the term exists to do. You are trying to say the term is useless because it does not perform when you try to use it for things it is not useful to use it for.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:59
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Rakosi posted:Why can't it be quantitative? Because you say so and because it would break your model? Because it's not a quantitative term, and the only person using as such is you. Why do you want it to be?
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Jan 2, 2017 04:00
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Who What Now posted:Where did I say they should feel ashamed? That'd be news to me, considering I've explicitly said the opposite more than once. It's a loaded term that's used to marginalize a person's struggles. And you can try to claim that's not the way you meant to use it but it doesn't change that fact. To call people who are stuck in a minimum wage job at part-time hours privileged (because of the color of their skin or the genitalia between their legs) is beyond ridiculous. Of course they'd react badly to that statement. You're belittling everything they're going through. (That's not even getting into the people who try to use the term as a way to silence others. I deem you privileged therefore anything you say doesn't matter.)
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Jan 2, 2017 04:00
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Rakosi posted:You guys might want to communicate to the alt-right that being white doesn't necessarily make you privileged anymore. Because that is actually news for probably quite a lot of them. Is English not your first language or something?
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Jan 2, 2017 04:02
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Call Me Charlie posted:To call people who are stuck in a minimum wage job at part-time hours privileged (because of the color of their skin or the genitalia between their legs) is beyond ridiculous. Of course they'd react badly to that statement. You're belittling everything they're going through. That is not even remotely close to what anyone means when they use the term. Your unwillingness to understand it doesn't change the intent or meaning of the word.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:03
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Who What Now posted:Is English not your first language or something?  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 2, 2017 04:03
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^^^^^^^ I don't think you actually know what that smilie even means. Call Me Charlie posted:It's a loaded term that's used to marginalize a person's struggles. And you can try to claim that's not the way you meant to use it but it doesn't change that fact. That's not a fact at all, actually, and you simply claiming it's a fact with nothing to back it up doesn't make it so. quote:To call people who are stuck in a minimum wage job at part-time hours privileged (because of the color of their skin or the genitalia between their legs) is beyond ridiculous. Of course they'd react badly to that statement. You're belittling everything they're going through. I'm actually not, but I suppose that I can't control what unnecessary baggage that people bring to the table for literally no good reason.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:05
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No point arguing guys, these alt-right facists have already declared:OwlFancier posted:I see no reason to moderate my language into meaninglessness because you're too emotionally delicate to deal with the slightest criticism of your beliefs. Where is the thread for discussing these progressive topics in a safer space?
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Jan 2, 2017 04:13
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Yes because my big complaint with the alt right is that they're too harsh in their wording, not that they're nazi apologists.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:14
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OwlFancier posted:Yes because my big complaint with the alt right is that they're too harsh in their wording, not that they're nazi apologists. You realize they refuse to use preferred pronouns, for example, by using the very same sentence you typed? Dont you find it ironic that maybe you're like the weird left version of the alt-right? Uncanny valley, My racist old grandad literally talks like you when he tries to qualify his points.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:19
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Who What Now posted:
So saying that a white guy is 'fortunate' 'lucky' or 'advantaged' just because he could get a minimum wage job is not supposed to be insulting? Because to that person, you are telling them that their position as a position as a poorly-paid worker is somehow a privilege he has that Ben Carson or the hispanic guy who owns his own business do not have. Yeah, he should feel thankful for the 'Privilege' that gave him the only job he could find, its too bad all the other minorities he sees in the media have better jobs than him, they dont have his massive privilege at all, what with his lovely car and minimum wage job this 'privilege' got him.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:20
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Rakosi posted:You realize they refuse to use preferred pronouns, for example, by using the very same sentence you typed? Dont you find it ironic that maybe you're like the weird left version of the alt-right? Uncanny valley, Well there's also the fact that I'm correct and they're nazis. That helps.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:23
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Pharohman777 posted:So saying that a white guy is 'fortunate' 'lucky' or 'advantaged' just because he could get a minimum wage job is not supposed to be insulting? Because to that person, you are telling them that their position as a position as a poorly-paid worker is somehow a privilege he has that Ben Carson or the hispanic guy who owns his own business do not have. Yes, that would indeed be very insulting if I said that. Good thing I'm not saying that and you made that up whole-cloth out of nothing. If you ever want to address something I actually said I'll be here.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:24
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Pharohman777 posted:So saying that a white guy is 'fortunate' 'lucky' or 'advantaged' just because he could get a minimum wage job is not supposed to be insulting? Because to that person, you are telling them that their position as a position as a poorly-paid worker is somehow a privilege he has that Ben Carson or the hispanic guy who owns his own business do not have. And yet that same white guy still has the privilege of not getting shot on his parents front lawn in a relatively nice area because he looked too much like a 'thug'. Don't be deliberately dense. He absolutely has privilege. Any interaction he has with the police or the justice system at all will be significantly more favorable for him than for any person of color. He doesn't have to worry about pregnancy or any kind of serious birth control issues that pretty much every woman has to deal with. He is significantly more likely to end up as the manager of that same lovely job that any other non-white dude. All of these things are part of privilege.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:25
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Who What Now posted:Yes, that would indeed be very insulting if I said that. Good thing I'm not saying that and you made that up whole-cloth out of nothing. If you ever want to address something I actually said I'll be here. Who What Now posted:Whether or not you feel privileged has no bearing on whether or not you are privileged. And those white guys undoubtedly have a privilege that the non-whites that Wal*Mart would never consider hiring do not.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:27
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Yes, and? Use your words, honey, you can do it.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:28
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OwlFancier posted:Yes because my big complaint with the alt right is that they're too harsh in their wording, not that they're nazi apologists. The irony is that the alt-right moderate their language instead of saying what they really think all the loving time.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:33
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Refried Hero posted:And yet that same white guy still has the privilege of not getting shot on his parents front lawn in a relatively nice area because he looked too much like a 'thug'. Don't be deliberately dense. He absolutely has privilege. Any interaction he has with the police or the justice system at all will be significantly more favorable for him than for any person of color. He doesn't have to worry about pregnancy or any kind of serious birth control issues that pretty much every woman has to deal with. He is significantly more likely to end up as the manager of that same lovely job that any other non-white dude. All of these things are part of privilege. The privilege of not being shot is barley a privilege when your not getting by. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Jan 2, 2017 04:38
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Who What Now, I really loving despise you for not seeing how insulting everything you are saying is for white people with minimum wage jobs. Telling them that their lovely situation is the result of privilege is not going to make them suddenly thankful for any 'privileges' they have, real or not. It is going make them tell you to gently caress off for saying they should be aware of all the other people who never got the opportunities to be in their lovely position and they are somehow advantaged because they are living paycheck-to-paycheck, with a lovely apartment.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:40
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Crowsbeak posted:The prvledge of not being shot is barley a privilege when your not getting by. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. Just because your situation is lovely, doesn't mean someone else doesn't have it worse. Quite the opposite, in fact, if you are a white dude.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:41
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Refried Hero posted:That doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. Just because your situation is lovely, doesn't mean someone else doesn't have it worse. Quite the opposite, in fact, if you are a white dude. But their not going to care, if their life is lovely. Pharohman777 posted:Who What Now, I really loving despise you for not seeing how insulting everything you are saying is for white people with minimum wage jobs. Just want to repost this.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:42
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Pharohman777 posted:Who What Now, I really loving despise you for not seeing how insulting everything you are saying is for white people with minimum wage jobs. You've had this explained to you many times and you aren't getting it. Having privilege is not supposed to make you feel shame or gladness, neither of those are remotely useful. Privilege is a concept which allows you to understand your position in society and others' positions in society better. That you want to inject a moral component into it is your failing, stop doing it if you don't like it, because nobody else wants you to do it. You can even use it to explain why as a white poor person you might have a lovely life. It's because the extremely wealthy have monumental amounts of privilege which allows them to set the laws and policies which keep your life as it is.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:43
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Pharohman777 posted:Who What Now, I really loving despise you for not seeing how insulting everything you are saying is for white people with minimum wage jobs. The point isn't to make them thankful for the privileges, you moron.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:43
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Crowsbeak posted:But their not going to care, if their life is lovely. So?
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Jan 2, 2017 04:43
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Who What Now posted:The point isn't to make them thankful for the privileges, you moron. No the point is for you to feel smug about being woke.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:44
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Refried Hero posted:That doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. Just because your situation is lovely, doesn't mean someone else doesn't have it worse. Quite the opposite, in fact, if you are a white dude. Same can be said of most african americans compared to trafficked thai girls, they best check their privilege.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:46
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Who What Now posted:The point isn't to make them thankful for the privileges, you moron. So you want to make the minimum wage white guy feel bad even when his living and job situation are lovely and he knows it? What is the knowledge that he is somehow privileged supposed to do? He is still poor and has a lovely job, what should he do?
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Jan 2, 2017 04:48
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OwlFancier posted:You've had this explained to you many times and you aren't getting it. So when you tell somebody to "check their privilege" in response to a statement they make, there's no element of judgement there? You do not actually believe this.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:49
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Rakosi posted:Same can be said of most african americans compared to trafficked thai girls, they best check their privilege. So are you just trolling or something. This is a thread about the alt-right - a group mostly made up of white dudes. The experiences of various minority groups compared to each other isn't exactly relevant here. African Americans are not the dominant majority in this country and while black men have it better than trafficked sex workers is true at face value, it has literally nothing to do with this discussion. So uhh, good job deflecting from the point that people are making I guess?
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Jan 2, 2017 04:52
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Crowsbeak posted:No the point is for you to feel smug about being woke. No, that's merely a pleasant side-effect. The point is to get people to realize that their situation sucks but that other people in similar (this qualifier is very important, so don't forget it) may have it even worse due to arbitrary conditions out of their control like their race or their gender or their health condition. It's to get them to think "Wow, my situation sucks, and it would probably suck even worse if I were black, or a woman, or trans. I should work together with them to raise us all up." Unfortunately people like you aren't willing to put in the slightest amount of effort into understanding and would rather throw women, minorities, and LGBTs under the bus to focus on your "no war but class war (and specifically the class wars that affect me personally)" ideals.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:54
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:So when you tell somebody to "check their privilege" in response to a statement they make, there's no element of judgement there? I haven't ever done that so I wouldn't know. The point of being aware of privilege is to better understand the world around you and the people in it, as well as your own place in society. It helps to destroy the notion of individual control, and re-describe your life as an expression of the effects of systems. Breaking the myth of individualism is important in order to have an accurate understanding of the world as well as pushing you towards helpful explanations for your problems and for the world's problems. If you are in a position of privilege and have normalized that position to the point you believe it is universal, it might make you believe that differences in status are a result of individual actions, and that things like poverty and inequality are moral failings. So if you are told to check your privilege, try it. The person telling you to might be wrong, but it doesn't hurt to check. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Jan 2, 2017 04:56
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OwlFancier posted:I haven't ever done that so I wouldn't know. Okay, but now imagine that you're speaking to actual human beings.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:59
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:Okay, but now imagine that you're speaking to actual human beings. Normal human beings are capable of introspection, though, so what he said is good there.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:01
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:Okay, but now imagine that you're speaking to actual human beings. ? The concept of privilege could basically be thought of as the concept of Marx's Capital except applied more universally. It's not some bizzare concept that nobody throughout human history has managed to grasp.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:02
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OwlFancier posted:? I mean, it's pretty bizarre if you are entirely unwilling to examine how your life might be different from someone elses or if you are entirely happy with the current socio-cultural status quo.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:03
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Pharohman777 posted:So you want to make the minimum wage white guy feel bad even when his living and job situation are lovely and he knows it? Let's stop pretending for a moment that you're the spokesman for hard luck white america. You're clearly personally offended by the idea of privilege, and by others asking you to consider your own. Why is that?
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Jan 2, 2017 05:05
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