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I think he means, like, people being fired or becoming unhireable because of a public support for socialist politics. But we have secret ballots in our elections for precisely that kind of reason. And if the forces of reaction are powerful enough to suppress socialism through sheer terror of destitution, then we've already lost and there's no point caring about anything - because Capital interests will always be our masters.
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Jan 5, 2017 05:29
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| # ? May 25, 2024 22:56 |
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:What if supporting socialism loses them their tiny poo poo job and puts their families welfare in jeopardy? don't be a wimp, you have nothing to lose but your chains!
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Jan 5, 2017 05:31
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The sad truth is that a lot of 'anti-imperialism' in the west is just pro-china or pro-russia imperialism, it's not actually anti-imperialism full stop. I think a lot of groups fall for the trap that, clearly by playing in and being a part of The Great Game Between Great Powers, that you yourself are powerful, but of course you're not. Also if we're honestly going down the route that 'core' countries pop will never support socialism because 'labor aristocracy', then we're assuming that self-interest is the only factor, which it cannot be. If it were, false consciousness wouldn't be a thing, and we'd have full communism by now. That, and the vast majority of the boon of imperialism doesn't go to labor, it goes to capital, like it always does, a plan that brings all workers up is entirely feasible. You also have to take into account that capitalism itself isn't exactly efficient, not when it has to spend vast quantities of that surplus maintaining the system for the benefit of capital, viat the vast military and intelligence apparatus and other instruments of suppression. Or hell, just some of the dumb ideas that get in vogue but are wasteful per unit of marginal utility provided (replacing cities + public transit with suburbs + automobiles). Basically using the word 'settler' unironically should be grounds for getting shot. Pener Kropoopkin posted:I think he means, like, people being fired or becoming unhireable because of a public support for socialist politics. But we have secret ballots in our elections for precisely that kind of reason. And if the forces of reaction are powerful enough to suppress socialism through sheer terror of destitution, then we've already lost and there's no point caring about anything - because Capital interests will always be our masters.
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Jan 5, 2017 06:00
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neither russia nor china have developed enough economies that would allow them to maintain the stranglehold on world affairs the us does. i'm really sick of the "so you think russia or china would be better???" because in no way is that the point. the us empire has myriad fault lines and it's the richest country in the history of the world. without american imperialism self-determination would be the way forward for most nations by default
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Jan 5, 2017 06:02
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China will, soon, and Russia has a strong enough economy to give eastern europe and central asia a hard time. I mean the model of imperalist exploitation is that you take resources from the periphery to support your core manufacturing base, and guess what china is trying to do right now? it's effectively becoming a 'core', it doesn't have any interest in overturning exploitation writ large
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Jan 5, 2017 06:04
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they'd be regional "superpowers" at best, without the military might to enforce whatever hegemonic aspirations may exist. russia's economy is in freefall because of its reliance on resources and the best it can do is wage a couple war games in small, proximate battlefields china is in a similar situation, though considering the terms it has with its weaker trading partners it's hard to argue their intention is comparable to the neocolonial powers
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Jan 5, 2017 06:11
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there's also more to imperialism than mere resource extraction or military entanglement but that's a discussion for another day
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Jan 5, 2017 06:15
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if you want to see how china treats its friends, see how it treated vietnam. And don't kid yourself dude, china definitely has the capability (and desire) to become global hegemon and eclipse the US, having 3x the population + strong natural resources under a strong central government will do that. the future is basically going to be china vs. india, and everyone else is going to be bit players. they're both improving education health + industry, they have a clear path for what they have to do, and they have the population
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Jan 5, 2017 06:15
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rudatron posted:the future is basically going to be china vs. india, and everyone else is going to be bit players. they're both improving education health + industry, they have a clear path for what they have to do, and they have the population But we control the money system. America is hooked up to an economic dead hand switch.
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Jan 5, 2017 06:18
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rudatron posted:Existing liberal institutions are crumbling apart, facing a crisis of legitimacy, and they're being replaced with direct, reactionary control. How is that not a change in the power structure? So the blue party losing to the red party is a radical change in the power structure? I don't really buy that. Forgive me for the analogy but the ruling class is just shifting to a higher gear on the exploitation train.
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Jan 5, 2017 07:26
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Odobenidae posted:Forgive me for the analogy but the ruling class is just shifting to a higher gear on the exploitation train. you seem to be belligerently agreeing with him
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Jan 5, 2017 07:28
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So you think Russia or China Woukd Be Better?
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Jan 5, 2017 07:29
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Prav posted:you seem to be belligerently agreeing with him The power is still held by the ruling class, not the working class. I mean I guess I agree with him about how Trump is comparatively "bad" but the Probably Bad Man getting the throne instead of the Possibly Not As Bad Woman doesn't meaningfully change the dynamics of political/economic power.
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Jan 5, 2017 07:37
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Odobenidae posted:The power is still held by the ruling class, not the working class. I mean I guess I agree with him about how Trump is comparatively "bad" but the Probably Bad Man getting the throne instead of the Possibly Not As Bad Woman doesn't meaningfully change the dynamics of political/economic power. Tell that to the QUILTBAG thread.
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Jan 5, 2017 07:59
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Tinker Tankie Soldier Spy posted:there's also more to imperialism than mere resource extraction or military entanglement but that's a discussion for another day the homework explainer is a godsend to us, but the last person I'd send to talk to the volunteer firefighters I work with
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Jan 5, 2017 08:02
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i know this is hard to think of in a post cold war world, but, regional power is what nations are before they become super powers. regional superpower doesnt even make sense. either you can project influence or force across the world at will, or you can't.
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Jan 5, 2017 11:10
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The Kingfish posted:But we control the money system. America is hooked up to an economic dead hand switch. This article disingenuous frames opposition to hegemony of eitbet as orientalist, the point is that it is the material operation of power that determines its characteristics, russian or chinese hegemony would not be an improvement in any way shape or form, and will probably be worse because neither are democratic. The US is flawed, but there are degrees to it, and the institutions of power in both Russia and China are worse because they have to be. But even if you disagree, you have no reason to think it's better, ergo there's no reason to prefer one over the other, since they're interchangeable. Basically the only way the logic expressed there works is if you're Sufficiently Woke enough to believe the problem is and must be the white devil, not any kind of rational and materialistic consequence theory of history.
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Jan 5, 2017 12:22
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Always laugh when people do the "but what about china or russia!" move. It always seems like a weasely way to get out of doing anything against your own countries imperialism now, because aparently it might (might!) in a hypothetical scenario result in a rebalancing of global dominance in some mythicay 20 years down the road situation. I mean seriously, as a single feeble human being with very limited resources, in a small organisation with very limited resources and no mass movement existing within a country with an eneormous state aparatus designed primerily to keep you in line, you have very few options to do anything - and your're worrying about whether you're supporting "russian or chinese imperialism". get a grip and actually think about what it is possible for you as a little human to actually do at the present stage. Frankly I don't give a gently caress about china or russia doing hypothetical bad things in the future because they are not the problem at the present moment in my own country which I happen to live in, my own ruling class andf govt is, as is the rest of western europe and the USA. The trots in my country literally go about like russia and china are the main problem across the entire globe. Did lenin not say to fight for the defeat (defeat) of ones own imperialist nation in a time of war? And at that time the same clowns popped up in the form of the 2nd international - "but isn't that supporting german imperialism?!, we should fight for defense of the country instead and defeat the germans". And as our ruling class is at war at ther moment - against yemen, syria, etc as well as against all red movements across the world, we should still be fighting for the defeat of our own country, or at least to lessen its ability to conduct overseas warfare, and imperialism in general, because realistically thats the only thing that has a hope of making a change and handwrining about "russia and china" is stupid trot bullshit and why I hate most first world "communists" (as well as their twisted viewing (as HE said) that imperialism is some sort of conquest and plunder thing, rather than an actual stage of capitalism as a whole encompassing monopoly and financial domination and the transfer of wealth every drat day from the periphery to the core so I can buy a £2 pair of jeans and drink coffee)
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Jan 5, 2017 12:26
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rudatron posted:This article disingenuous frames opposition to hegemony of eitbet as orientalist, the point is that it is the material operation of power that determines its characteristics, russian or chinese hegemony would not be an improvement in any way shape or form, and will probably be worse because neither are democratic. The US is flawed, but there are degrees to it, and the institutions of power in both Russia and China are worse because they have to be. You are an idiot and everything I hate about people who think they're communists
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Jan 5, 2017 12:31
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If you can constrain your own countries' imperialism, then more power to you, but don't pretend that anti imperialists don't consistently excuse, downplay, minimize or straight up ignore the exploition of 'anti-imperialist' countries, because that is exactly what happens, and we have our friend Homework Explainer here to prove that.
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Jan 5, 2017 12:32
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the only person i kno irl who said he was a communist also beats his wife (now separated) and injects heroin.
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Jan 5, 2017 12:41
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and by 'know' i know his (soon to be) ex-wife.
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Jan 5, 2017 12:42
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i knew something was up when i heard there were furries in fursuits attending their wedding years bakc
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Jan 5, 2017 12:45
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rudatron posted:russian or chinese hegemony would not be an improvement in any way shape or form, and will probably be worse because neither are democratic. The US is flawed, but there are degrees to it, and the institutions of power in both Russia and China are worse because they have to be. Quoting this again for submission to the trot zone of US apologism
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Jan 5, 2017 12:47
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gonna need a fact check on the US being a democracy. also on russia not being one.
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Jan 5, 2017 12:48
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last i checked russia wasn't communist either why defend them???? also whats wrong with imperialism? imo imperialism is cool as long as you are in the big powerful country
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Jan 5, 2017 12:51
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imperialism is like the gazelle being taken down by a pride of lionesses screaming "help help im bein oppressed" when its just the natural order of international stuff
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Jan 5, 2017 12:52
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lions gotta eat too
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Jan 5, 2017 12:52
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why even is imperialism a thing tankies are against when commies like the USSR and china are/were hella imperialistic especially USSR, dayum, they took half the drat world.
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Jan 5, 2017 12:56
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Baloogan posted:why even is imperialism a thing tankies are against because you touch yourself at night
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Jan 5, 2017 13:11
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gently caress nature
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Jan 5, 2017 13:19
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G.C. Furr III posted:gonna need a fact check on the US being a democracy. also on russia not being one. For your own health, you may want to keep avoiding reality.
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Jan 5, 2017 13:22
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G.C. Furr III posted:Always laugh when people do the "but what about china or russia!" move. It always seems like a weasely way to get out of doing anything against your own countries imperialism now, because aparently it might (might!) in a hypothetical scenario result in a rebalancing of global dominance in some mythicay 20 years down the road situation. I mean seriously, as a single feeble human being with very limited resources, in a small organisation with very limited resources and no mass movement existing within a country with an eneormous state aparatus designed primerily to keep you in line, you have very few options to do anything - and your're worrying about whether you're supporting "russian or chinese imperialism". get a grip and actually think about what it is possible for you as a little human to actually do at the present stage. Frankly I don't give a gently caress about china or russia doing hypothetical bad things in the future because they are not the problem at the present moment in my own country which I happen to live in, my own ruling class andf govt is, as is the rest of western europe and the USA. The trots in my country literally go about like russia and china are the main problem across the entire globe. Did lenin not say to fight for the defeat (defeat) of ones own imperialist nation in a time of war? And at that time the same clowns popped up in the form of the 2nd international - "but isn't that supporting german imperialism?!, we should fight for defense of the country instead and defeat the germans". And as our ruling class is at war at ther moment - against yemen, syria, etc as well as against all red movements across the world, we should still be fighting for the defeat of our own country, or at least to lessen its ability to conduct overseas warfare, and imperialism in general, because realistically thats the only thing that has a hope of making a change and handwrining about "russia and china" is stupid trot bullshit and why I hate most first world "communists" (as well as their twisted viewing (as HE said) that imperialism is some sort of conquest and plunder thing, rather than an actual stage of capitalism as a whole encompassing monopoly and financial domination and the transfer of wealth every drat day from the periphery to the core so I can buy a £2 pair of jeans and drink coffee) Uh, freakin cosigned.
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Jan 5, 2017 13:32
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id say it's probably always good to fight the fascists here or abroad and i hope im not doing an imperialism by saying that
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Jan 5, 2017 13:34
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but yeah everythign else i agree with
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Jan 5, 2017 13:35
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The Bolsheviks weren't wringing their hands over the vast swathes of Poland & the Baltics they were ceding over to Imperial Germany at Brest-Litovsk. Worrying about whether or not China will do an imperialism on Vietnam or Taiwan should be way way down on the list of priorities. A world free of American hegemony is not by necessity a world vulnerable to new vulgar imperialisms. That's giving way too much credit to Neocons & Liberal interventionists.
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Jan 5, 2017 13:42
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pax americana isn't very peaceful
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Jan 5, 2017 13:47
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Nature abhors a vacuum, any space left by the decline of the US is going to be filled by someone. Sorry to break this to you, but they're no socialist country to fill that space. That leaves China or Russia, which are more than happy to screw over others for their own benefit. Like that 'not necessarily' is doing the heavy lifting of dodging the more important 'realistically'.
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Jan 5, 2017 13:48
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no i understand i just think we've seen one example of a war in the last century that it was important to fight HOWEVER i know that was not the point of his post
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Jan 5, 2017 13:51
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i think there's a mistaken assumption that american hegemony is based on any kind of good will whatsoever, rudatron. im not convinced things would be materially different under a russian or chinese boot for whoever is under it (to the point that it's justifiable to engage with proxy wars with them)
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Jan 5, 2017 13:53
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