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Jack Gladney posted:I'm shocked as all hell that he writes for the National Review. His attacks on "liberals" always struck me as being in the CLR James sense and not in the George Will sense. Is he such a contrarian that he'll eagerly go to bed with people who would love to put his former colleagues at Out Magazine into concentration camps? Yes. Also he is a pariah in the larger critic community because of his behavior at events and his general approach to the whole thing, which is that most critics are human garbage.
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Jan 5, 2017 23:16
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I think he started writing for the National Review after the McQueen incident.
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Jan 5, 2017 23:18
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MacheteZombie posted:I think he started writing for the National Review after the McQueen incident. Do tell.
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Jan 5, 2017 23:20
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Hodgepodge posted:Do tell. http://variety.com/2014/film/awards/12-years-a-slave-director-steve-mcqueen-heckled-at-new-york-critics-circle-awards-1201032911/
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Jan 5, 2017 23:21
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For what it's worth George Lucas is on the record as agreeing with White's sentiments on the critic circuit, but Armond's disgust is on a whole other level.
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Jan 5, 2017 23:23
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MacheteZombie posted:http://variety.com/2014/film/awards/12-years-a-slave-director-steve-mcqueen-heckled-at-new-york-critics-circle-awards-1201032911/ Wow. Guess he decided that it's the life of sneering at others from a position of privilege for him. Conservative criticism has often tended to be fanboy-level poo poo dressed up in a veneer of sophistication and contrarianism from critics who no longer want to put in the level of work that earned them the respect necessary to appeal to an authoritarian mindset, though. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jan 5, 2017 |
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Jan 5, 2017 23:24
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The Armond White derail is a neat parallel to the discussion about how dumb George Lucas must be.
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Jan 5, 2017 23:28
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Armond White isn't dumb, but he seems like a right oval office, and I'm glad on some level that as his star falls he'll spend the rest of his working days somewhere where half the people reflexively clutch their purses or momentarily start in fear whenever he has to visit the office.
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Jan 5, 2017 23:39
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"I can't believe I'm watching a puppet die," says the film critic. "This is why you fail," replies the dying puppet. I love Armond White, but his Rogue One piece seems more like an anti-Disney polemic with disdain for its "toys." Personally, I'd rather read the giant robot dinosaurs and compare them to great stop motion monsters than complain a multi-billion dollar corporation is trying to sell me something; like R2 D2 toys haven't been a Christmas staple for like 40 years.
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Jan 5, 2017 23:39
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Jack Gladney posted:Armond White isn't dumb, but he seems like a right oval office, and I'm glad on some level that as his star falls he'll spend the rest of his working days somewhere where half the people reflexively clutch their purses or momentarily start in fear whenever he has to visit the office. I too fantasize about people I don't like being subject to racism.
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Jan 5, 2017 23:41
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I too fantasize about people I don't like being subject to racism. I wouldn't but the National Review is full of monsters. They endorsed Cruz. They only exist in the first place because Buckley wanted a platform to support Barry Goldwater.
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Jan 5, 2017 23:57
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Jack Gladney posted:I don't think he is conservative. Until like half an hour ago I thought he was a socialist. That's because he's both. There's no real contradiction between White's leftism and his relatively conservative attitudes. White had extremely high praise for Edwards' previous (and similarly-themed) film, Godzilla. His criticism of Rogue One is that it isn't leftist enough; he views CG Princess Leia's appearance at the end as a straightforward endorsement of the liberal Rebellion To Restore The Republic. And I think that's a fair interpretation that simultaneously misses the key theme of exploitation of the authentic left by liberals. The nuance of the phrase "rebellions are built on hope" is that the rebels aren't the good guys. They are the Obamas of the galaxy, taking advantage of other people's hopes, building their republic on the backs of the people. White shares this interpretation, but simply asserts that the film doesn't do enough to criticize these caped elites, with their gold butlers.
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Jan 6, 2017 00:30
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It kinda makes sense that Armond White would take over the NR film beat after they relied on John Simon, a man who seemed to stop enjoying movies of any kind around 1970.
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Jan 6, 2017 00:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That's because he's both. There's no real contradiction between White's leftism and his relatively conservative attitudes. Except that the Rebellion is consistently portrayed as a small band of freedom fighters who are apparently taking the extraordinary step of active resistance. They are the revolutionary vanguard seeking to destroy the system and bring about massive change. In point of fact we never see anybody associated with the Rebellion even interacting with "the people" of the galaxy once they join the fight, with the exception of Han interacting with Lando in Empire and the Jabba's palace stuff in RotJ.
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Jan 6, 2017 00:48
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Rogue one blows that all to hell
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Jan 6, 2017 00:49
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Does it? Because again the only interaction with the people is through Saw's group, which is explicitly apart from and more radical than the Rebellion. Otherwise, it's once again a radical vanguard hoping to destroy the oppressive system. Unless I'm forgetting something?
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Jan 6, 2017 00:58
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TheLoquid posted:Does it? Because again the only interaction with the people is through Saw's group, which is explicitly apart from and more radical than the Rebellion. Otherwise, it's once again a radical vanguard hoping to destroy the oppressive system. Unless I'm forgetting something? The entire third act?
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Jan 6, 2017 01:02
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TheLoquid posted:Does it? Because again the only interaction with the people is through Saw's group, which is explicitly apart from and more radical than the Rebellion. Otherwise, it's once again a radical vanguard hoping to destroy the oppressive system. Unless I'm forgetting something? They've got a ton of ships, both fighter and capital. Saw's group might've been a bunch of randos on the ground, but the actual Rebels had enough of a war machine that that they considered scattering it upon learning of the Death Star.
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Jan 6, 2017 01:02
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TheLoquid posted:Does it? Because again the only interaction with the people is through Saw's group, which is explicitly apart from and more radical than the Rebellion. Otherwise, it's once again a radical vanguard hoping to destroy the oppressive system. Unless I'm forgetting something? In Rogue One, some of the rebels want to work within the system by revealing the Death Star to the Senate, and others want to give up the cause and surrender.
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Jan 6, 2017 01:03
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MisterBibs posted:They've got a ton of ships, both fighter and capital. Saw's group might've been a bunch of randos on the ground, but the actual Rebels had enough of a war machine that that they considered scattering it upon learning of the Death Star. On a galactic scale their fleet is still vanishingly small and gets obliterated when the Imperial fleet shows up, so there's no grounds for saying they are anything more than a radical fringe regardless. Zoran posted:In Rogue One, some of the rebels want to work within the system by revealing the Death Star to the Senate, and others want to give up the cause and surrender. Ok, but that doesn't mean that they are somehow exploiting people's hopes though, right? Recruiting is a thing radical groups do. euphronius posted:The entire third act? Oh yeah it was probably that
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Jan 6, 2017 01:08
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TheLoquid posted:
Is that sarcastic or . My filters are all off sorry
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Jan 6, 2017 01:21
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euphronius posted:Rogue one blows that all to hell Rogue One's take on the rebellion is that it's made up mostly of politicians with mixed loyalties, people who are not acting at all out of selflessness to the cause. These money men need to see a path to victory right now or they're out of the game. The military wing, who profess themselves as selfless, are also merchants of death who buy and sell human lives to no real effect after twenty-odd years of "resistance." Mon Mothma is either: (A) Telling rebel agents one thing and doing another, or (B) Surrounded by scheming terrorists who are jockeying for their own political positions within the rebellion.
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Jan 6, 2017 01:24
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euphronius posted:Rogue one blows Haha Just kidding, I enjoyed The Star War Story.
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Jan 6, 2017 01:26
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Selective editing!!
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Jan 6, 2017 01:27
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dont even fink about it posted:Rogue One's take on the rebellion is that it's made up mostly of politicians with mixed loyalties, people who are not acting at all out of selflessness to the cause. These money men need to see a path to victory right now or they're out of the game. That sounds like a genuinely cynical take. Haven't seen the film, though. I watched some deleted scenes from ANH the other day, and one was Biggs (I think) talking with Luke about going to join the Rebellion on Tatooine. Was interesting to see how ordinary people like Luke and Biggs saw the Rebellion. Even more so than in TFA, the scene conveyed the idea that the Rebellion was something that idealistic young people aspired to join. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 01:46
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Rogue One absolutely presents the Rebellion as being composed of dispossessed aristocrats.
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Jan 6, 2017 01:55
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The leadership maybe, which is true of a lot of rebellions throughout history. But Rogue One also shows the Rebellion is composed of the kinds of people who'd volunteer to go on a virtual suicide mission just to preserve the hope that the Empire can still be defeated and gladly give their lives to contribute a fraction towards that goal. Even though its pointed out that a lot of them have done bad stuff, their genuine sacrifices directly lead in to the more naive, earnest heroics seen in ANH.
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Jan 6, 2017 02:05
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That does seem like a tonal change worth criticizing. (e: Mechafunkzilla's take, I mean). Although the Rebellion in TFA isn't really portrayed that way, although an establishment still exists for the Rebellion to work with until most of it gets blown up, and I guess White hates it too?
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Jan 6, 2017 02:07
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Hodgepodge posted:That does seem like a tonal change worth criticizing. (e: Mechafunkzilla's take, I mean). Basically we go to the Yavin IV base, lovingly reconstructed in complete detail, a couple of times. Much of the movie, and the stuff that gets said there in particular, puts a new spin on the events of Episode IV. As in, Luke is lucky he didn't draw the short straw on mission assignments.
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Jan 6, 2017 02:10
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Hodgepodge posted:That does seem like a tonal change worth criticizing. (e: Mechafunkzilla's take, I mean). There is no Rebellion in TFA. There is "the Resistance," which is essentially a local paramilitary run and funded clandestinely by the Republic whose higher-ups are ex-Republic military leaders. There's not a lot of great and heroic parallels to groups like that in real life, either. But we've had this less idealized take on the Rebellion be true since the prequels showed the kinds of people who are trying to recapture their former political power through it. Rogue One is just shining a more direct light on that.
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Jan 6, 2017 02:12
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Crion posted:There is no Rebellion in TFA. There is "the Resistance," which is essentially a local paramilitary run and funded clandestinely by the Republic whose higher-ups are ex-Republic military leaders. There's not a lot of great and heroic parallels to groups like that in real life, either. By essentially the left wing of the Republic, with the others to some degree supporting or sympathizing with the First Order. e: Yeah, the series has yet to propose an actual functioning government, let alone a utopian one.
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Jan 6, 2017 02:16
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To be very clear: Armond White's very accurate concern, with Rogue One, is that it is easily appropriated by the unselfaware liberals who still perceive themselves as the underdog heroes. As White points out in his review of Allied, there's a persistent liberal fantasy of being the last heroes holding back the nazi hordes. Some end-of-history horseshit. So you need to be careful. Unless read carefully, Rogue One can be - and has been - facilely appropriated as a pro-Hillary narrative. A paperclip to add to the lapel of those who declare Trump the next Hitler and fantasize that roving gangs of redneck stormtroopers are going to lynch Muslim women in the streets. See Walter Chaw's review: "[Krennic is] engaged in a kind of political double-speak, in gaslighting--things that until this year were the scourge of banana republics and other backwards backwaters. [...] In a very real way, Rogue One (and much of Disney's recent output) is like Disney's WWII propaganda work. In terms you can understand: Stop it before it's too late. [...] The word 'hope' is the one bandied about the most. We've elected Presidents on 'hope.'" My italics. Chaw does not mean this in a critical way. He's straightforwardly praising the film as pro-Obama propaganda from the Disney corporation. So Jyn - a former insurgent fighting imperialism in space-Iraq, currently an escaped convict - is held up as a Hillary figure. She's presumed to be an American democrat - because she's a girl, right? People assumed the same about Rey and FN: they must be liberals and democrats because of their identities. That is what White is responding to.
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Jan 6, 2017 02:17
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Hodgepodge posted:By essentially the left wing of the Republic, with the others to some degree supporting or sympathizing with the First Order. I don't recall any evidence suggesting one way or another what politics the Resistance actually supports. All we know is their stated goal, which is getting rid of a regional nuisance that opposes the Republic (which later surprises them by having a superweapon and killing the Republic governing worlds). The actual politics of the groups in TFA are intentionally oblique to the point of nonsense.
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Jan 6, 2017 02:21
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:To be very clear: Armond White's very accurate concern, with Rogue One, is that it is easily appropriated by the unselfaware liberals who still perceive themselves as the underdog heroes. So he's specifically criticizing a particularly relevant reading of the text which repulses him, as much in the role of cultural critic as film critic.
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Jan 6, 2017 02:27
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Crion posted:I don't recall any evidence suggesting one way or another what politics the Resistance actually supports. All we know is their stated goal, which is getting rid of a regional nuisance that opposes the Republic (which later surprises them by having a superweapon and killing the Republic governing worlds). The actual politics of the groups in TFA are intentionally oblique to the point of nonsense. Uh, the First Order isn't exactly subtle about being space nazis.
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Jan 6, 2017 02:28
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The governments supporting the removal of nazis were not good based on that fact Alone.
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Jan 6, 2017 02:30
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euphronius posted:The governments supporting the removal of nazis were not good based on that fact Alone. Oh, yeah. I just mean that you're underplaying the extent to which the First Order is obviously hostile. Beyond not liking aggressive fascists, we don't really get a sense of what sort of vision for the Republic the Resistence supports/is supported by. e: like nothing present in Star Wars suggests that this poo poo isn't going to just keep happening, since the Republic is evidently defined by corruption and decadence. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 02:37
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I just saw Rogue One and I love it, but I have no idea where on the forums we're supposed to talk about it. it burns my soul.
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Jan 6, 2017 02:41
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Hodgepodge posted:So he's specifically criticizing a particularly relevant reading of the text which repulses him, as much in the role of cultural critic as film critic. I specifically highlighted that piece White wrote about the liberal appropriation of the hope bit because I couldn't have put it better into words myself like White and SMG did above. White may be a kook for half of his reviews but some of the stuff he writes is spot on imo. So thanks poster who linked him, some interesting stuff. After binge reading a bunch of White's stuff he seems keenly aware of the cheap poo poo hollywood sells you; usually the appearance of progressive values but no substance. Which, as a euro lefty looking at american liberals strikes a chord with me. "Rebellions are built on Hope" is such weak drivel you could apply it to Trump/Hillary in equal measures. The actual rebellion in our time going on right now is one of (right wing) nationalism in the west so take that for whatever. R1 therefore imo couldn't have gone far with hammering home its implied message, if it's even there. I feel it's so weak that it's just a general 'anti-imperialism' thing which we're going to see more often now. (15 years too late folks)
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Jan 6, 2017 02:49
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Turtlicious posted:I just saw Rogue One and I love it, but I have no idea where on the forums we're supposed to talk about it. This is a good of a place as any.
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Jan 6, 2017 02:51
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