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the JJ posted:Basically any broad statement about "the Romans did X" or ""the Romans felt Y" is too broad to be useful. You've got a tremendous time period to cover, and even contemporaneous Romans bitched at each other about what proper behavior was. This wasn't just a Caesar thing either though, the Roman Republic had a long tradition of honorary crowns for being the first over the wall or saving a legion single-handed, often accompanied by other decorations and bonuses. In this context it's important to remember that the Roman army originally wasn't professional at all, and only formally became a professional standing army in Caesar Augustus' time. Codes of conduct were very much at the discretion of whatever individual nobleman happened to be in command. Apparently Caesar had a bit of a reputation for being lax on discipline in the ranks, at one point he's supposed to have said he didn't care if his soldiers were wearing perfume as long as they fought well.
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Jan 7, 2017 22:49
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It's also important to remember that "Rome" spas about a thousand loving years. poo poo like professionalism of the standing army is going to vary wildly between 300 BC, 0 AD, and 350 AD.
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Jan 7, 2017 23:17
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Cyrano4747 posted:It's also important to remember that "Rome" spas about a thousand loving years. And they cleaned those spas about once a century, too.
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Jan 7, 2017 23:43
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It was professional under Marius and they were paid way early than that I think the siege of veii.
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Jan 7, 2017 23:43
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Who did Romans think were the most powerful wizards?
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Jan 8, 2017 00:00
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I would also question what "bloodthirsty" could possibly mean in context. As already stated you're asking a relatively specific question about an incredibly broad swath of history (I suspect "yes absolutely" is true, as is "absolutely not" as are countless shades in-between) but "bloodthirsty" adds another level of vague on top. Even if you take a specific period, say the end of the republic (which I'm more familiar with thanks to pop culture) breaking formation as a legionnaire and brawling was a punishable offence, which suggest "bloodthirsty" was something discouraged, while sometimes "ordering your troops to murder your political rivals/people who's property you desire and also their families" was more or less totally acceptable. To go even broader: wars are unpleasant things, and unpleasant things happen during them. Modern "quiet professional" armies do bloodthirsty poo poo all the time, even moreso depending on how you define "modern".
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Jan 8, 2017 00:01
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Arglebargle III posted:Who did Romans think were the most powerful wizards? The Druids They were all killed
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Jan 8, 2017 00:03
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Arglebargle III posted:Who did Romans think were the most powerful wizards? Etruscan augurs, maybe, given that they borrowed the practice from them and still had Etruscan augurs do their thing in an official capacity. Then again, the Archaic/maybe Mycenaean Greeks did similar stuff according to Homer (Iliad iirc), so maybe they had more exposure to it and Etruscan augury was nothing special. What about Zoroastrians? What did pre-Constantinian Romans think of them and their cool fire temples?
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Jan 8, 2017 00:29
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euphronius posted:It was professional under Marius and they were paid way early than that I think the siege of veii. Hence "formally". Early Republican army was levied (this is the original meaning of the word "legio") and up until Marius this didn't change a whole lot except for the fact that came to be a whole lot of Italian allies in the ranks as part of their treaty obligations. Soldiers were paid from Veii onward but only in terms of compensation given to citizens for being kept away from their real jobs for years on end. Marius took the crucial step of recruiting people who didn't have trades or properties to be kept away from, developing army service into a job you did for a number of years before getting paid out with a slice of ager publicus to farm. In practice this is basically a professional army, but in theory the idea was still these are citizen farmers defending the republic and then going back to their farms. Of course from there a state of near-constant war persisted to the end of the Republic and eventually Augustus formally changed this all over to you sign up, you get a bonus, you do your sixteen years, you get your retirement bonus or your land in a colonia somewhere, you leave. But while he didn't pull this change out of his rear end, it was still a change from an ostensible state of conscripting the citizens temporarily to a state of accepting volunteers for a career.
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Jan 8, 2017 00:43
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Arglebargle III posted:Who did Romans think were the most powerful wizards? The Latin word magicus comes from the Greek magikos which comes from the magi, the Persian priests of Zoroaster. The Greeks credited Zoroaster with being the first wizard, but that might be a recognition of the Persians as having the ability to influence the divine realm more than anything else, since it's difficult to determine what's "magic" and what's religion in a world where divine power is taken seriously. In Roman times there were still wizards, although by that I mean they were people who would tell your fortune or make you a love potion or cast a curse on your enemies. It's said that Nero was into magic and learned from the best teachers of it, though, like everything, that might be a political smear more than a historical fact. But I think the kind of person who today is interested in Aleister Crowley would, in ancient times, have been into the Persians. People did take magic seriously, though. Pliny the Elder's Natural History discusses the claims of magicians and is skeptical, but he also admits that everyone is terrified of magic spells and people buy all kinds of talismans and fetishes to ward off magic.
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Jan 8, 2017 01:02
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Cnidario posted:What about Zoroastrians? What did pre-Constantinian Romans think of them and their cool fire temples?  EDIT: To clarify I'm no expert.
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Jan 8, 2017 01:17
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fantastic in plastic posted:The Latin word magicus comes from the Greek magikos which comes from the magi, the Persian priests of Zoroaster. The Greeks credited Zoroaster with being the first wizard, but that might be a recognition of the Persians as having the ability to influence the divine realm more than anything else, since it's difficult to determine what's "magic" and what's religion in a world where divine power is taken seriously. We don't need to take ancient writers' word for it, either, since we have many surviving "curse tablets" - sheets of lead, probably made by professional wizards or mediums, which bore prepared magical formulas of various types addressed to deities: to kill someone ("the thief who stole this [money], may you consume his blood and take it away, Lord Neptune"), to ensnare someone with love, to gently caress them up overall ("...so long as someone, whether slave or free, keeps silent or knows anything about it, he may be accursed in [his] blood, and eyes and every limb and even have all [his] intestines quite eaten away if he has stolen the ring or been privy [to the theft]"), to make someone lose a lawsuit, what have you. The target's name would then be filled in by an aggrieved customer and the tablet would be ceremonially pierced with nails and buried/immersed. Magic!
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Jan 8, 2017 01:24
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Given the number of protective erection statues and reliefs all over the place in well preserved towns I'd say dicks were the most powerful wizards.
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Jan 8, 2017 03:31
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Comstar posted:You already did that- you gave him a note and he didn't read it. Fine, I'll just subliminally influence Calpurnia so she dreams that he is in danger and she'll warn him not to go. He's bound to listen to his wife. If that doesn't work, I'll just go back further in time and straight up tell Pompeia instead. It'll have to be when Caesar's not around so he doesn't know it comes from me though and asks me some tough questions. I'll just wait for Bona Dea and then sneak into the house dressed as a woman.
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Jan 8, 2017 10:37
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Jerusalem posted:Fine, I'll just subliminally influence Calpurnia so she dreams that he is in danger and she'll warn him not to go. He's bound to listen to his wife. I guess I, Clodius does have a certain ring to it...
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Jan 8, 2017 10:39
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Grand Fromage posted:Given the number of protective erection statues and reliefs all over the place in well preserved towns I'd say dicks were the most powerful wizards. I love the fact that in certain aspects, humanity hasn't changed a bit in the last couple thousand years.
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Jan 8, 2017 15:09
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In Greco-Roman Egypt magical papyri would be used for getting a crush to start loving you, healing and cursing. They were written in Greek and sometimes Demotic, I think. They also included made-up words used in charms. They have a good collection of papyri in Oslo, and I got to see a famous one that included weird illustrations like the penis-holding* birdman seen here: http://www.apollon.uio.no/english/articles/2012/papyrus.html *No one knows what the hell these things are
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Jan 8, 2017 17:10
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Jerusalem posted:Fine, I'll just subliminally influence Calpurnia so she dreams that he is in danger and she'll warn him not to go. He's bound to listen to his wife. Waaaaaaait... your whole plan hinges on a man listening to his wife?
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Jan 8, 2017 18:12
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Dalael posted:Waaaaaaait... your whole plan hinges on a man listening to his wife? whoosh
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Jan 8, 2017 18:21
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Hmm, I hope you have better luck than I did with Croesus.
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Jan 9, 2017 03:29
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I tried to warn Priam and Paris and all of them but they just ignored me and I ended up getting raped by Agamemnon into the bargain. Why did I wear that stupid wig?
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Jan 9, 2017 11:33
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Jerusalem posted:Fine, I'll just subliminally influence Calpurnia so she dreams that he is in danger and she'll warn him not to go. He's bound to listen to his wife. Nah. You gotta go back further. Before he starts down the path to public office. Get some friends together, take him on vacation for a month or so, and convince him not to go to school in Rhodes. He just needs to learn to chill and relax.
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Jan 12, 2017 08:27
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Canemacar posted:Nah. You gotta go back further. Before he starts down the path to public office. Get some friends together, take him on vacation for a month or so, and convince him not to go to school in Rhodes. He just needs to learn to chill and relax. Sounds expensive.... but maybe if I play my cards right I can get him to reimburse me my out-of-pocket costs? I doubt he'd be too upset, I hear he has a pretty good sense of humor!
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Jan 12, 2017 09:43
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Jerusalem posted:Sounds expensive.... but maybe if I play my cards right I can get him to reimburse me my out-of-pocket costs? I doubt he'd be too upset, I hear he has a pretty good sense of humor! Yeah, it'll be kind of expensive. Probably around 20 talents, but knowing how generous Caesar is, he'll likely throw more your way as a thanks.
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Jan 12, 2017 10:13
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Is there a general history ask/tell thread?
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Jan 13, 2017 13:52
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Friendly Humour posted:Is there a general history ask/tell thread? In the context of this thread, "ancient" seems to be anything more than about two weeks ago, so fire away.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:01
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Is the early modern thread still going? I've got a question about renaissance era Italy
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Jan 13, 2017 17:18
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Cyrano4747 posted:Is the early modern thread still going? I've got a question about renaissance era Italy Just yell "STAR FORTS!" to the sky, and Hegel will appear
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Jan 13, 2017 18:12
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Nah, I was just wondering what it was exactly that prevented the spread of reading and writing in the high middle ages outside of the Church. I understand the invention of paper had something to do with breaking that monopoly at the start of the reneissance, but that can't be it can it? Personally I wouldn't be opposed to changing this into a General History A/T thread. It's Goldmine quality already (and I read every single page of it), but threads sometimes die off when they get rebooted so eh.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:17
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Friendly Humour posted:Nah, I was just wondering what it was exactly that prevented the spread of reading and writing in the high middle ages outside of the Church. I understand the invention of paper had something to do with breaking that monopoly at the start of the reneissance, but that can't be it can it? Primarily the cost of reading materials. The printing press democratized literature. Prior to that, everything had to be written by hand which made them quite expensive and literacy was a privilege of rank and wealth. Society was such that most people could get along fine without reading or writing much.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:35
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There's a medieval history A/T thread o'er yonder that might be more applicable in this case. It doesn't get as much traffic as this one, probably because the ancient era lasts so much longer (maybe even by orders of magnitude if you include prehistory into it).
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Jan 13, 2017 18:40
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I feel we are good with the three way setup we have now. Mil history for the tank circle jerks. That other one for star fort for bow fuckery and this one for really old stuff.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:59
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Friendly Humour posted:Nah, I was just wondering what it was exactly that prevented the spread of reading and writing in the high middle ages outside of the Church. I understand the invention of paper had something to do with breaking that monopoly at the start of the reneissance, but that can't be it can it? cost of materials. when people switched to paper you start to see lots more people having access to reading, even before the printing press--like college students would rent books in pieces by the quire, take them back to their rooms, copy them onto their own paper, then give them back.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:25
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HEY GAIL posted:cost of materials. when people switched to paper you start to see lots more people having access to reading, even before the printing press--like college students would rent books in pieces by the quire, take them back to their rooms, copy them onto their own paper, then give them back. I believe that was relatively similar to standard practice in the Muslim world as well, there a teacher would have a proper copy of a book, and the students would copy it mixed in with the teacher's lecturing and end up with a copy of the information in the book with marginalia from the lectures.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:40
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HEY GAIL posted:cost of materials. when people switched to paper you start to see lots more people having access to reading, even before the printing press--like college students would rent books in pieces by the quire, take them back to their rooms, copy them onto their own paper, then give them back. You wouldn't steal a horse... You wouldn't steal a coinpurse... You wouldn't steal a performing troupe... Alternatively, don't transcrible that bible.
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Jan 13, 2017 22:27
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xthetenth posted:I believe that was relatively similar to standard practice in the Muslim world as well, there a teacher would have a proper copy of a book, and the students would copy it mixed in with the teacher's lecturing and end up with a copy of the information in the book with marginalia from the lectures. I recall a story about the University of Bologna and the teaching of Justinian's Law. The actual text would occupy about 1/3 of each page, to which the instructor would add a gloss explaining the text. They would then be rented out to the students for the duration of their studies. Successive students would add their own notes explaining the gloss, and every page was layer upon layer of explanations of explanations, which got richer and richer until the books finally wore out and had to be replaced. Example (click for big): 
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Jan 13, 2017 23:51
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My lecture notes didn't look at all like that
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Jan 14, 2017 00:13
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SlothfulCobra posted:It doesn't get as much traffic as this one Which is why having a single Ask/Tell thread for History would be a good thing. Unnecessary compartmentalisation is unhealthy and annoying for reading. There's a reason why I have read every page of this thread and not a single one of that other thread. And it's because I noticed that this thread is great, which is why I read it.
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Jan 14, 2017 00:20
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The mil hist thread seems like the de facto general history thread. Spans all of history and you can't military history without social, economic, etc history these days. I don't think anyone has ever been run out because their history related question fell into the wrong sub field. And if ya don't give a drat about the minute differences between tank model A vs tank model A.01 those types of posts are easy enough to scroll past.
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Jan 14, 2017 00:40
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SlothfulCobra posted:You wouldn't steal a horse... Vulgate. Translation. Is. Heresy 
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