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OhDearGodNo posted:I am on the camp of a 3e full wipe, however I started right when 3e began so I don't know how many models/units were invalidated. I played 2nd and 3rd and was around for the transition and what I'd tell you is that the problem isn't necessarily that a bunch of rules are invalidated, but moreso that it takes *years* for some factions to get actual rules again and not just the stopgap "here's a quick, lovely take on your whole faction" version, especially if those factions are not space marines.
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Jan 8, 2017 04:11
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I see the thread has evolved to armchair rules designing... so I'm gonna just throw my I'd support a full 3rd Ed wipe, if they did exactly that- revert the rules back to 3rd edition. Keep some quality of life things they learned in 3rd like not being able to assault out of every vehicle or assault out of sweeping advance and a whole bunch more poo poo I'm forgetting, maybe keep the psychic phase and instead change vehicle armor to toughness based on the side armor value (av14 is equivalent to toughness 10. av 10 = toughness 6 etc) so no shenanigans over which side is facing the enemy to make the game just touch simpler. Then they can give vehicles an armor save to bring them up to parity with monstrous creatures. Oh yeah, and all fliers are now just skimmers with a jink save. Hamshot fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 04:13
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^^^^^^^ I've been playing since 3rd, and 3rd is my least favorite of the editions I've played. I genuinely like the guts of 7E. 90% of the core rulebook, at least up through page 179, are fine with me, and I think most of the changes from 3rd are improvements. Like many people I want (1) a significant to full rules rewrite for 40k, (2) FW to continue modifying the 6E rules in their own direction rather than being anchored to 40k, and (3) 40k fluff to still move forward but slow the gently caress down. I'm okay with the Imperium being dragged inevitably closer to extinction, but what I don't want to see is six IRL months of total galactic destruction followed by 8E opening with the Emperor waking up and starting another Great Crusade led by Custodes. Truescale Space Marine models that made the Custodes sculpts more reasonable by comparison--that might actually be cool, but I don't really want to think about the impact it'd have on us as hobbyists. Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 04:14
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Moola posted:but what if those rules were actually good?! As it turns out, the traitor legion rules are actually pretty good
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Jan 8, 2017 04:20
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I strongly disbelieve that
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Jan 8, 2017 04:33
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Sulecrist posted:^^^^^^^ The only experience I can draw on is as an assault army with no options to assault out of deep strike and right now it's inevitable that I'll need to weather at least two, usually three turns of shooting. It's bringing a knife to a gun fight. On top of that, most of the arguments in favour of revamping 40k is to make it simpler, and nothing is as simple to play as 3rd edition was. Well, another way is to consolidate the army books and remove formations but that way lies AoS madness. Moola posted:I strongly disbelieve that One, maybe two of the traitor legions are good, out of nine. Hamshot fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 04:39
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Moola posted:I strongly disbelieve that They're good by 40k standards but as an actual decent set of rules, nah.
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Jan 8, 2017 04:39
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Hamshot posted:The only experience I can draw on is as an assault army with no options to assault out of deep strike and right now it's inevitable that I'll need to weather at least two, usually three turns of shooting. It's bringing a knife to a gun fight. Being assaulted by something that I never had the opportunity to see, much less do something about, is a terrible experience and I am really happy that assaulting from reserves is gone. Assault got nerfed too hard over the past few years, but a lot of the changes have made the core game less frustrating.
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Jan 8, 2017 04:57
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drat, didn't expect the Death Thread to leak into here so quickly. Y'all are on point tonight.OhDearGodNo posted:Formations aren't bad. They bring out thematic compositions that gives some flavor to the usual FoC. Formations are a loving cancerous infection on this game that exist purely to push power creep and sell boxed sets. They need to go entirely. They won't though, because they loving WORK for selling those boxes sets. See: Start Collection: Necrons! The formation in this allows defeated units of warriors and scarabs to be brought back into play on the next turn within 3" of your overlord. It's strong enough on its own, and it's prepackaged with ~savings~ so gently caress yeah I bought two of them. I originally started playing this game in early high school when the start box was space marines and dark eldar. I think 4th edition? I'd visit my buddy and throw my marines at his tyranids for the afternoon. We'd only need to reference the WS and BS charts because we were dumb kids and remembering THAT was iffy. Now every army has several unique rules and formations make the bloat worse. It's time to rebuild from the ground up. I'll keep saying I love this stupid game and its stupid setting and fluff, but formations are bad and the rules bloat is awful. Supplements are goddamn awful now and I can't even justify using a cheap one as a band-aid fix for armies because THERE ARE NO CHEAP ONES.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:04
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Hamshot posted:One, maybe two of the traitor legions are good, out of nine. All nine of the legions have good rules that represent the fluff of their factions well. Some are stronger than others, but none of the rules are bad, and none of them are wildly unbalanced or downright trash. Also seriously, we have a death thread for a reason. Did you guys finally get sick of talking about anime and arguing over loving star wars and decide you couldn't talk about how 40k is poo poo over in there?
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Jan 8, 2017 05:08
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TheChirurgeon posted:All nine of the legions have good rules that represent the fluff of their factions well. Some are stronger than others, but none of the rules are bad, and none of them are wildly unbalanced or downright trash. Gonna agree with this. The traitor legions may have two or three actually ~pro tier~ sets but gently caress if all their poo poo isn't super fluffy and fun. Who cares if you'll only ever seen death guard or emperor's children at Adepticon or where ever. The rules are fun and I actually saw somebody fielding goddamn NIGHT LORDS at the Local GW today, while somebody was painting up a heresy army of Alpha Legion to play in both 30k and 40k. Let nerds play and enjoy their dumb games how they want to.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:17
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SteelMentor posted:They pretty much stated at the reveal that this isn't 40k's End Times, it's a much less cataclysmic shift in the status-quo. They're being a million-times more transparent without just outright giving spoilers. 40k needs a shakeup. Yeah, Neo-G.Dubs is a lot more fan-focused, and so far between Imperial Agents/Genestealer Cults/Traitor Legions it seems to line up with what fans have been asking for a while (move everyone closer to their endgame-scenario where they have crazy and cool stuff to play with but none of the factions get screwed out of the fun).
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Jan 8, 2017 05:26
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Moola posted:I strongly disbelieve that There was only one real panic (splitting horrors), but even that was dissipated with the first FAQ which established that splitting horrors cannot actually summon more horrors (which would have created the nightmare scenario of a horror spawning two horrors when attacked, and two horrors when not attacked)
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Jan 8, 2017 05:28
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Neurolimal posted:There was only one real panic (splitting horrors), but even that was dissipated with the first FAQ which established that splitting horrors cannot actually summon more horrors (which would have created the nightmare scenario of a horror spawning two horrors when attacked, and two horrors when not attacked) also the splitting horrors are daemon rules from Wrath of Magnus, and not part of the legion rules for CSM
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Jan 8, 2017 05:30
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TheChirurgeon posted:All nine of the legions have good rules that represent the fluff of their factions well. Some are stronger than others, but none of the rules are bad, and none of them are wildly unbalanced or downright trash. Fluffy and good are mutually exclusive things. Everyone in the thread was blasting the Night Lords rules because next to nothing in the game is affected by fear that wouldn't already be mulched by a CC unit. Word Bearers get a rule that within the radius of a sub-par HQ unit they get something that's still worse than ATSKNF (although I admit 3+ to summon demons is tits and I'll be using it). World Eaters get to charge in the first turn, but with Berzerkers. The real winners are Death Guard and the Alpha Legion. Both fluffy AND good.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:44
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Night Lords rules look bad on paper, but if that goon batrep of a NL vs. Necron match is anything to go off of, it has its uses.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:47
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Hamshot posted:Fluffy and good are mutually exclusive things. You are falsely equating "powerful" with "good." Rules can be good without being powerful. Eldar have really powerful rules. That doesn't mean those rules are good. I wouldn't be saying the Traitor Legion rules were good if every legion got ridiculous rules that made them must-field in every tournament. Here's another example: Space Marines getting free transports is a powerful rule that is loving terrible. And no, fluffiness and good aren't exclusive--rules have to be fluffy to be good, though being fluffy alone isn't enough to make a rule good. The Night Lord rules aren't bad by themselves, only in the context of a meta that has a glut of space marines, and even then they are underrated. Outside of the fear rules, they have good artefacts and raptors are among the army's best units, so the ability to take them as troops is powerful. Word Bearers got rules that are fine.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:49
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Rules need to have some power, otherwise they'll never see play. I used to run a mono-god Khorne Demon army, nice and fluffy, interesting synergies, got tabled every time. Guess what? I never play them any more. You're introducing a third factor into rules. Fluffy: reflects the fluff. Power: how strong the rule is against its peers, and if it's too powerful that's just as bad as being too weak. "Good": some nebulous subjective factor you define, and not a combination of the previous two as I thought it was.
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Jan 8, 2017 06:01
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That third one is kind of important, because without it a fun gimmick that is fun to play and play against becomes 'bad' in the face of DaemonBayn the MindMarine, who can roll a 1d6 and win the match on round one against any daemon army. Some shits just broken yo
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Jan 8, 2017 06:07
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Hamshot posted:Rules need to have some power, otherwise they'll never see play. I used to run a mono-god Khorne Demon army, nice and fluffy, interesting synergies, got tabled every time. Guess what? I never play them any more. "Good" isn't some nebulous, hard-to-define trait of rules, but rather a function of the other traits of a rule or ruleset, and those traits go well beyond power. I'd suggest that "Good" can be easily understood as a combination of other factors, e.g. a rule or set of rules is good if: - it is balanced within the game system (which is not the same as powerful, though there is some overlap and I agree that rules need *some* power, but that isn't a problem for any of the traitor legions) - it well reflects the fluff of the faction--strong or well-designed rules that have no thematic connection to their faction are still bad, even if most of the reason for them being bad is aesthetic. You could give Tau powerful close combat rules, or Orks powerful shooting rules, but these would feel "wrong" and out of place, and weaken the game's factional differences - it is easy to understand and remember (complicated rules and rulesets are bad) - it creates opportunities for interesting decisions to be made during play (not all rules need this, but good rules often lead to interesting decisions) Yeah you ideally want your rules to have some power. But none of the traitor legion rule sets are weak. Some are stronger than others--I can't deny that Death Guard and Emperor's Children are more powerful than Night Lords, but the Night Lords rules are not bad--they are fluffy, they have some power, even if that power is primarily exercised against only half of the game's factions (likewise I think Black Legion are underrated, but they have a similar advantage against a good 2/3 of potential enemies), they're fairly easy to remember, and they can lead to interesting decisions during army building and games--there is an interesting synergy between units and rules (the fear modifiers stack with the modifier from the Heldrake formation and the charges from the Raptor Talon formation that can be used as a core formation in the army). Sorry about your Khorne bros, but last I checked KDK were pretty good and see a good amount of tournament play, albeit in flesh hound-heavy lists
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Jan 8, 2017 06:20
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It was from before KDK were a thing, so just using the Demon codex. Otherwise yah, that's a good definition of Good Rules. Night Lords are still bad for only being usable against half the armies, and then only if you get into CC with them  .
Hamshot fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 06:25
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Hamshot posted:It was from before KDK were a thing, so just using the Demon codex. Otherwise yah, that's a good definition of Good Rules. ah, makes sense. You should consider running them as KDK, or with the newer Wulfen book rules. They make mono Khorne significantly stronger and more fun to play. e: cover saves are still good against every army, and the raptor talon formation they can take as core lets them make disordered charges out of deep strike, and they naturally get to reroll charge distances with their detachment. getting into cc isn't an issue 
TheChirurgeon fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 06:29
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TheChirurgeon posted:Also seriously, we have a death thread for a reason. Did you guys finally get sick of talking about anime and arguing over loving star wars and decide you couldn't talk about how 40k is poo poo over in there? 
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Jan 8, 2017 07:25
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Ilor posted:In a fit of pique over Rogue One spoilers, Leperflesh locked the thread until he can see the movie. Now we have to poo poo up other threads. drat him! Post the spoiler here so he reopens the thread
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Jan 8, 2017 08:54
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3rd Edition was loving awful and as a with-friends non-tournament player every edition since has been more fun to play overall. Which isn't to say that book and formation management is fine at the moment, because it isn't, it's silly. Also, the transition from 2nd to 3rd edition was a completely mishandled disaster. A nightmare of obsoleted models and lovely lovely wafer thin codex books that drove an awful lot of people away from the game. Remember Dark Eldar? Remember how there was basically no fluff in their introductory codex? In other news, Kill Team is really very good and fun.
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Jan 8, 2017 11:57
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I thought Black Legion was pretty good. Run a Hounds of Abbadon with one random spawn to make it a Speartip and you get free Veterans of the long war, free Marks of Khorne, Fear, Crusader, can call a pseudo-waagh to run and charge for one turn, a turn one deepstrike rolls (automatic for your Warlord and his unit) and rerolling to hit in every combat phase against Imperium units (Endless Hatred).
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Jan 8, 2017 12:46
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TheChirurgeon posted:Also seriously, we have a death thread for a reason. Did you guys finally get sick of talking about anime and arguing over loving star wars and decide you couldn't talk about how 40k is poo poo over in there? Th death thread has been edging about this happening to 40k since AOS dropped. Let us have this moment. We're also mostly ex or current 40k/30k players so we actually have input on how this could be handled for either good or bad and chatting about the future of 40k in the 40k thread is surely a good thing. Not all of it is going to be positive when the ship you're sailing on is captained by Games Workshop.
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Jan 8, 2017 12:54
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World Eaters are great fun too. Everyone is choppy as gently caress and they actually have the speed to be a melee threat. Also a lord on a juggernaut with the Berserker's Glaive is both fluffy and goes through entire units like a lawnmower.
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Jan 8, 2017 12:57
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TheChirurgeon posted:Also seriously, we have a death thread for a reason. Did you guys finally get sick of talking about anime and arguing over loving star wars and decide you couldn't talk about how 40k is poo poo over in there? Please loving stop this In 99% of other threads on something awful it is absolutely fine to talk about what you don't like about a thing, apart from GW threads for some reason?
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Jan 8, 2017 13:03
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I started playing 40k in 2nd edition and play 30k now. Things that need to happen:
Things that need to happen but absolutelly will not happen:
Things that should be avoided:
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Jan 8, 2017 13:20
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Increased use of USRs instead of everyone getting something slightly different is the big thing. For example, ATSKNF. Know what knowing no fear is? Fearless. Just give them fearless.
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Jan 8, 2017 13:25
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Moola posted:Please loving stop this I'm all for discussion of the game's flaws (you know as well as anyone that I think 40k is a bad, flawed game), but continually posting "lol 40k is going to get sigmar'd, suck it people who still play" isn't productive discussion. Also, I wanted to make fun of the death thread, which so rarely actually talks about GW that it's laughable.
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Jan 8, 2017 13:32
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TheChirurgeon posted:I'm all for discussion of the game's flaws (you know as well as anyone that I think 40k is a bad, flawed game), but continually posting "lol 40k is going to get sigmar'd, suck it people who still play" isn't productive discussion. In the same vein, shutting down all negative thoughts about the game and the company isn't productive.
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Jan 8, 2017 13:39
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TTerrible posted:I started playing 40k in 2nd edition and play 30k now. They definitely need to simplify the list and use of USRs. The worst are USRs that confer other USRs and have no other ability beyond that, and there are a few of those. They should all be removed. I don't know that they need to roll back to 5th edition, but they certainly need to shore up the game and return to that line of thinking. The psychic phase straight up needs to go. Any benefit it has is more than offset by how much longer it makes games, and the fact that it adds a phase for which multiple factions have nothing to do. The random powers go hand in hand with the balance of powers being a joke. In my opinion, of the great misses of 6th/7th edition is the random warlord traits. By making them random, they've taken a set of rules which could have been fluffy and fun--paying points for special rules to build your own special character--and instead made them an nonsensical random mess. The codex release schedule does need to be sped up, but I think we're *kind of* seeing that with campaign books. It seems like GW is intent on replacing codexes with those for now. I have mixed feelings about that. I think formations aren't bad conceptually, but right now there are waaaaaay too many of them, their balance is all over the place, and the fact that they're free points-wise only exacerbates things. The worst formations are the ones that come bundled with things like online bundles. I like the concept of letting you immediately play with your "start collecting" box, but adding a new formation that is only available if you buy that box or online bundle is crazy--not only have you contributed to formation bloat, but your contribution is obscure and difficult to find or know about. Why not build the "start collecting" formations into the existing detachments, or vice versa (they do the following, but only as online bundles)? TTerrible posted:In the same vein, shutting down all negative thoughts about the game and the company isn't productive. Sure, but it's p clear I'm not doing that or advocating for that
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Jan 8, 2017 13:48
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Ilor posted:In a fit of pique over Rogue One spoilers, Leperflesh locked the thread until he can see the movie. Now we have to poo poo up other threads. drat him! There's already been a new death thread since before Xmas
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Jan 8, 2017 13:52
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Sigmar surprisingly handles Warlord traits and Psychic powers (spells in their case, I guess) a lot better than 40k does at the moment. Since they're selected rather than randomised they're much more tightly balanced. If there's one thing I'd like to see carried over, that wouldn't be a bad one. Along with taxing formations and warscrolls.
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Jan 8, 2017 13:53
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Granted, I don't play the game that much these days, but I like the idea of the Decurion way of building lists as a fluffy option. I could see formations being restricted to only be used in a Decurion style list as a way to make formations less terrible. Or at least make formations cost points if you don't use them like that. USRs definitely needs to be cleaned up. Aside form that, there's way too much random elements in the game. Random warlord traits, random psychic powers, and the lousy random tables some armies are stuck with, and it all needs to go, or at least be really reduced for the game to be better. The group I've been playing with, that includes fellow goon Soulfucker, houseruled the random warlord trait like this: First you roll, then you chose the table from which you pick your trait. So let's say you rolled a 3, you then get to chose the third trai from one of the three tables in the BRB, or the third trait in your codex. There's still a random element to it, but it's mitigated by still having a choice to make. In other news, something that was talked about ITT about a week ago; Gav Thorpe's take on the Dark Angels and how the Fallen might actually be loyalists. I just finished Angels of Caliban, and as it turns out that was just a big red herring. The Fallen absolutely are the traitors. Luther declares Caliban independent from the Imperium. Zahariel decides to serve the warp entity called the Ouroboros imprisoned in the planet's core, going against the Watchers in the Dark. The Lord Cypher on the other hand followed the Watchers, and is killed by Zahariel who then becomes the new Lord Cypher.
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Jan 8, 2017 14:04
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SteelMentor posted:Sigmar surprisingly handles Warlord traits and Psychic powers (spells in their case, I guess) a lot better than 40k does at the moment. Since they're selected rather than randomised they're much more tightly balanced. If there's one thing I'd like to see carried over, that wouldn't be a bad one. Along with taxing formations and warscrolls. It's such a weird missed opportunity on all fronts to have them be random. The tournament players don't like it because they can't maximize their effectiveness, and can get randomly boned with a bad/irrelevant power, and the casual players can't build their own fluffy unique warlords with rule to represent the magic powers they were bestowed on the catgirl planet.
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Jan 8, 2017 14:04
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^ GW loving love random tables man, and think their customers do too. It feels like they barely restrained themselves from doing it in AoS. Bombogenesis posted:drat, didn't expect the Death Thread to leak into here so quickly. Y'all are on point tonight. Saint Drogo fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 14:10
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TheChirurgeon posted:It's such a weird missed opportunity on all fronts to have them be random. The tournament players don't like it because they can't maximize their effectiveness, and can get randomly boned with a bad/irrelevant power, and the casual players can't build their own fluffy unique warlords with rule to represent the magic powers they were bestowed on the catgirl planet. 
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Jan 8, 2017 14:15
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