|
they were in an experimental branch iirc and also were way wonkier than anything in trunk currently ps: how would anyone feel bad about the cool rods getting changed into wands/evocable and the lame ones going away, do you really like swapping weapons all the time or something Darth Windu posted:What's the new hybrid race then. Who can wield long swords and cast tornado and isn't a tengu there were already multiple other species who were better at being a hybrid than high elf before they were removed anyways, I don't really get where this "king of the hybrids" idea comes from when they weren't really that strong
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 06:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 06:06 |
|
|
Lava Orcs and Djinn were definitely in non-experimental trunk
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 06:51
|
|
|
IronicDongz posted:they were in an experimental branch iirc and also were way wonkier than anything in trunk currently Nobody said they were king of the hybrids they were just real good and had real good apps.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 06:59
|
|
|
IronicDongz posted:there were already multiple other species who were better at being a hybrid than high elf before they were removed anyways, I don't really get where this "king of the hybrids" idea comes from when they weren't really that strong No there really aren't. I mean there are species that are better than them at certain kinds of hybrids but high elves had really good hybrids skills in pretty much everything other than summoning and necromancy. Combined with their high stat gain meant they had a lot of flexibility with what path they took and could really excel in both melee and magic. There's enough difference between them and other races that they didn't play out similarly. This isn't like minotaur and mountain dwarf where their apts were basically identical so they always played the same exact way. The devs compared high elf to tengu but I already outlined why the two races are significantly different.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 07:02
|
|
|
Darth Windu posted:Nobody said they were king of the hybrids they were just real good and had real good apps.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 07:23
|
|
|
IronicDongz posted:they were in an experimental branch iirc and also were way wonkier than anything in trunk currently This is already in trunk and any character worshipping Ashenzari or using a contaminated (*drain?) or vampiric weapon is in love with it. It's also much easier on hunger than rods, if you were Gozag, Spriggan, etc. Rods of lightning are still in, but as an Exp-Evoker like lamps of fire. quote:i get the feeling the dev team is too focused on the tournaments and top crawlers
It looks like the win ratio has actually been decreasing, but not by any large margin. By comparison, versions 0.3 to 0.9 had a win ratio between 0.3% and 0.5%. Version 0.12 reached as high as 0.8%, and in fact 0.16 was the first version with a win rate of over 1% as far as I can track. My long playtime may be skewing my overall perspective more than some. I think I've lost some of the stats on my earliest games, but I've played 3942 games since at least 2008, so that's built in a lot of tolerance.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 07:32
|
|
|
If the dev team always cared what top players think they would of listened to me and removed glow from hell effects like, 5 versions ago  IronicDongz posted:they had nice apts(and stats) but weren't actually real good. they sat fairly squarely in the middle of the species power curve. How good a species doesn't matter when it comes to whether or not they get removed. Mountain dwarves were basically just as good as minotaurs, which made them one of the better races when it came to winrates. They got removed because they were redundant. High elves really aren't redundant. There's plenty of room for diversity when it comes to hybrid playstyles due to how many magic schools there are. Plus I'm confident tengu have an even worse winrate than high elves do. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Jan 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 07:42
|
|
|
Darth Windu posted:Also ive kinda skimmed over the last 30 or so pages of this thread and a lot of the changes are for the worst. i get the feeling the dev team is too focused on the tournaments and top crawlers and are kinda ignoring the gently caress around goofball players. They have sacrificed Fun on the sacred alter of Efficiency and the world is lessened for it You might think that from reading this thread since we tend to revel in negativity, but actually I think the vast majority of changes have been positive. The only really bad change was the removal of singularity, which was a deeply problematic spell that needed to be changed, but should not have been removed. I do agree that there is now a bigger focus on Serious Gameplay Choices over just screwing around and that's pushing the game in a direction I don't like, but most of the changes resulting from this attitude only have had a minor negative impact. IronicDongz posted:there were already multiple other species who were better at being a hybrid than high elf before they were removed anyways, I don't really get where this "king of the hybrids" idea comes from when they weren't really that strong The issue is not whether or not high elves were good. I agree they weren't. What made them interesting was the combination of extremely high stats and high apts. That let you learn a wider variety of spells compared to other hybrids without sacrifice in your melee ability. Compare HEIE to MfIE. MfIE was the better choice if you wanted to win the game. Mf has higher HP, reaches mindelay faster with a better weapon type, has comparable defenses and can swim. But HE was more interesting to play, because your play style was strongly shaped by what books you found since you could reasonably expect to still be able to cast strong ice magic even if you picked up a bunch of hexes, air and necromancy, for example. MfIE, because of far lower int, lower spellcasting and lower overall magic apts would be much more restricted in its choices. The early game for the two was roughly the same, but the Mf would handle the mid-late game much more by brute force, whereas for the HE to shine, the player had to recognize interesting spell combinations and use them effectively. For example, taking freezing cloud, simulacrum, metabolic englaciation, bolt of cold, silence, deflect missile and, formerly, haste, was not unreasonable for a HEIE melee hybrid. But the merfolk would really feel too spread out with such a diverse spell selection. The same comparison holds between HE and Te, the other "high apt" hybrid species. It is even more true when comparing HE to even aptitude species like Hu, Dr or Dg. The species were already pretty distinct based on apts, but between apts and stats HE could be played in a fun and rewarding way that other species could not. Removing HE was still not as bad as removing singularity, though. PleasingFungus posted:This is a good list! I'm putting it on my backlog to look at. I'm glad these suggestions got some recognition. I had an idea of my own that could be used in addition to or instead of a few of these. Singularity could root you to the spot, either with a barbs like effect, or just with root like from shambling mangroves. That, along with making the singularity tile passable, making the singularity disappear if the central tile left LoS and restricting its range would allow you to damage thing out of LoS in combination with abilities like darkness or fog (more tactical depth) while still removing possibility for abuse. It would also require you to seriously consider whether or not it's worth the risk to cast in dangerous situations, which would also make the spell better and more interesting.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 07:46
|
|
|
Yeah, there's a good crate message about HE strength in learnDB:quote:<crate_> if you play HE and dont expect it to be bad it will be strangely bad For Sk in particular, a class where that incredible (sarcasm) +2 charms gave High Elves some differentiation from Tengu in particular, you could still just play HuSk, which would make you significantly stronger than a HESk, or play MfSk or HOSk, which would be stronger still. HESk whle it existed was simply below-average or at best average, if you really think those stats & small apt difference did anything compared to less HP and XP gain. And they were otherwise very normal. With HE gone, you can still do average (and above-average) Sk with species ranging from plain to very weird. Below-average Skald yet with reasonable Charms/Hex apts is well covered by Ko, Ha, Ds, among others, any of which give you something more interesting in terms of limitation/benefit trade-offs beyond "levels up slow but some extra stat points".
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 08:06
|
|
|
I think that message is quite true about HESk. HESk was really, legitimately bad. HEWz and HEIE were decent hybrid starts, though, if weaker than other species. From a purely early game viewpoint, HE was bad. But in spite of the early game being the hardest, most of the time people actually spend playing the game is not spent there. In the mid-late game, well-played HE hybrids were distinct, interesting and strong.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 08:32
|
|
|
LordSloth posted:0.16 was the first version with a win rate of over 1% as far as I can track Internet Kraken posted:Plus I'm confident tengu have an even worse winrate than high elves do.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 08:47
|
|
|
I don't buy the argument that HE were a "bad" race. I never had any trouble with them. They are slightly slower to get going but they have no equipment restrictions or major inherent flaws. They are only a little weaker than other common hybrid races early on and potentially a lot stronger later. -10% HP is their biggest problem but most magic oritented races have to deal with that or worse anyways. I will agree that HeSk isn't a great combo but that has nothing to do with He; skald simply isn't a good start. The book of battle is a great book...when you find it past the early game. Regeneration and repel missiles are the only really good spells for the early game in it. Infusion is weak and shroud feels like it does nothing most of the time. Song of slaying isn't that good when you are gonna be resting a lot and would rather not wake up everything in the dungeon. Spectral weapon is underwhelming without a good weapon, obviously. What a hybrid really wants out of their starting book is utility. Something that helps to cover their weaknesses. Skalds spells are oriented towards enhancing your offense, but early on that would be better accomplished by simply focusing on your fighting skills instead.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 08:58
|
|
|
Internet Kraken posted:How good a species doesn't matter when it comes to whether or not they get removed
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 09:13
|
|
|
HE being a "bad race" shouldn't be part of the discussion towards removal since balance is supposed to be a minor goal. e:f,b On a somewhat related note, I couldn't find the Crawl Philosophy page but I found this gem instead: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Frustrated_Philosophy apple fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Jan 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 09:16
|
|
|
World Famous W posted:I'm partially responsible for that if [tengu have a lower winrate]. They don't. Te have a somewhat higher winrate all-time, as well as going back to 0.15, as well only looking at recent (0.18 and later) versions. code:
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 10:00
|
|
|
That probably has more to do with high elves having nearly double the games played than the actual strengths of the races.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 10:33
|
|
|
Well, you could come up with any number of reasons to explain the statistic, for example that new players who jump into the game are more likely to pick high elf than weird Japanese bird people, but it could also just be that High Elf has a tough early game and people die more often with it. I will say that I don't really like Tengu and personally find them harder to play than HE, but that might just be me. Internet Kraken posted:I don't buy the argument that HE were a "bad" race. I never had any trouble with them. They are slightly slower to get going but they have no equipment restrictions or major inherent flaws. They are only a little weaker than other common hybrid races early on and potentially a lot stronger later. -10% HP is their biggest problem but most magic oritented races have to deal with that or worse anyways. HE isn't "bad". People are being hyperbolic. HE is average. It has a weaker early game than you'd expect, which might lead people to say it's bad. It does have a very strong mid-late game if played well, but that doesn't matter as much. I do think HE is uniquely bad for Sk in spite of seeming like a natural fit, because charms, hexes and spellcasting aren't really that important to Sk. You can get spectral weapon up pretty early with almost any species. Auxiliary melee attacks or beefiness are much more important to help you survive the early, awkward period until you get enough weapon skill and defenses to allow your spells make a big difference. HE has low HP, no additional sources of defense and no way to deal extra damage in melee, so it has a tough time fighting toe to toe with a sub-par melee start.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 11:05
|
|
|
You know what the real travesty is? Demigods still exist. Demigods, the humans that can only worship Chow, Cheis little brother. Instead of slow movement and cool invocations you get slower xp gain, fewer stats and a little more health and mp. Demigods only point of value is being an atheist challenge run except they're even banned from getting that tournament banner. High elves are far more interesting than demigods as are all other races, even boring baseline humans. P.S. Remove Hell contam effects. P.P.S. Also remove sInv from entropy weavers.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 13:18
|
|
|
gammafunk posted:For Sk in particular, a class where that incredible (sarcasm) +2 charms gave High Elves some differentiation from Tengu in particular, you could still just play HuSk, which would make you significantly stronger than a HESk, or play MfSk or HOSk, which would be stronger still. HESk whle it existed was simply below-average or at best average, if you really think those stats & small apt difference did anything compared to less HP and XP gain. And they were otherwise very normal. Darox posted:Hexes and Translocations and Summoning and Necromancy and Transmutations and Charms are all schools that are especially beneficial to hybrids and they are all schools where Tengu and High elves have a three point gap in aptitudes (four for charms!) Tengu and HE spell apts are nothing alike though?
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 13:21
|
|
|
demigods are more fun to play than most other species in the game. not having gods means you have to play around what you do get more, and I find it actually makes my runs more varied because the stuff gods give you is so strong it sorta makes runs feel samey-but floor loot varies a lot.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 13:46
|
|
|
Denimgods only fill the niche of 'people who want to play godless runs but can't bring themselves to choose not to worship as a regular race', which I feel is a very small niche. e: Autocorrect has shown the way, replace demigods with denimgods. They wear jeans. No other changes.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 14:10
|
|
|
Honestly, I think if I was going to go godless, a lot of other races would take priority over demigod.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 14:28
|
|
|
it "feels" cooler when it's a game enforced thing rather than an honor rule. also having really big stats(without garbage slowmove) is fun
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 14:34
|
|
|
Remove demigods and add Cloak of the Demigod: -faith (wield penalty and reduced faith gain), +10 to all stats, -1 to all apts when worn
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 14:48
|
|
|
Development is not focused around tournaments or top players. It's even unclear to me how people arrive at this conclusion, but it's just not true. HE removal: this is not about power. If we would have thought that HE is too weak or too strong, then the answer would be to buff or nerf, respectively. (If we would have cared at all, because species aren't intended to be equal in power.) Instead, this is about differentiation. Hold on, for you may strongly disagree: [i[we[/i] think that HE is not different enough from neighbouring species. If you look over the history of DCSS, you will see that the standards for "is varied enough" have been risen increasing all the time. Finally, there are two new species tested out right now: frogs and dogs. You're totally entitled to mourn your HE and feel that froggies and doggies are at best a cynical replacement, but try to look at it with the eyes of new players: with which set of species will they get more out of the game? About pull request to add HE back: don't do it, please. Nothing will happen, and it'll just lead to wasted effort and further frustration. Singularity: you know this psychological effect how it feels much worse if you find 10$ on the street and have to part with 5$ rather than just finding 5$? In a sense, Singularity has never existed. It was tried out, and found to be absolutely, unrepairably overpowered. For most things removed, you could (and people do) say: "why not think a bit harder about how to replace it?" That's true, but it is hard. So if you really think that Singularity should be a Crawl spell, make ideas how to improve it. This has happened., and be persistent. You may even have to make a thread on the tavern or something to keep the idea alive.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 15:40
|
|
|
Hey guys anyone can work on this, just don't do stuff we don't want you to do. Thanks! Edit: This is needlessly mean, but I stand by the general sentiment. If I went to the trouble of making a new race that was essentially HE but with an extra thing would it even get considered? Carcer fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Jan 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 15:52
|
|
|
dpeg posted:Finally, there are two new species tested out right now: frogs and dogs. You're totally entitled to mourn your HE and feel that froggies and doggies are at best a cynical replacement, but try to look at it with the eyes of new players: with which set of species will they get more out of the game? High Elf. New players don't play Op a second time after they get killed by a d1 kobold playing OpTm, I'm confident they'll feel the same when playing Dog, the dog bounty hunter. Re: Singularity. That argument is wrong because unlike finding money, we aren't subject to the whims of the universe. We have a dialog with the creator and can say "fixing singularity is good." instead of just shrugging our shoulders when we find 10 then lose 5.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 15:58
|
|
|
dpeg posted:Singularity: you know this psychological effect how it feels much worse if you find 10$ on the street and have to part with 5$ rather than just finding 5$? In a sense, Singularity has never existed. It was tried out, and found to be absolutely, unrepairably overpowered. For most things removed, you could (and people do) say: "why not think a bit harder about how to replace it?" That's true, but it is hard. So if you really think that Singularity should be a Crawl spell, make ideas how to improve it. This has happened., and be persistent. You may even have to make a thread on the tavern or something to keep the idea alive. This is kind of a bad analogy. Keeping with your example, we found $10 and had to part with $10. Singularity was added and then removed totally. However... Chakan posted:Re: Singularity. That argument is wrong because unlike finding money, we aren't subject to the whims of the universe. We have a dialog with the creator and can say "fixing singularity is good." instead of just shrugging our shoulders when we find 10 then lose 5. This is not really fair either, because (with the exception of Ferrinus), I haven't seen anyone who's mad about the removal of Singularity provide any ideas or feedback on how to make it reasonable to keep. I could be wrong about this, but mostly the cries for its return just go "bring back Singularity!" with no suggestions on how it could be included without breaking the game.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 16:46
|
|
|
I had an idea for Demigods a while back that might make them more interesting to the average player, admittedly this is just a concept and I haven't examined what it would take to balance and it will be complicated with so many gods in the pantheon. Introduce the unique racial ability to Denounce an established god. Destroying the god's altar gives a themed power at the cost of suffering the god's wrath. I think the wrath should be permanent and the power should grow a little each time it hits and is survived but there might be a better way to handle this. Since meaningful choice is a theme of the development process this could be a way to introduce some to Demigods, also it would be badass to defy a bunch of gods and use your own power to survive their combined wrath (if you are allowed to Denounce more than one god, haha.)
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 16:51
|
|
|
Zarick posted:This is kind of a bad analogy. Keeping with your example, we found $10 and had to part with $10. Singularity was added and then removed totally. However... Dude i literally caught up with this thread yesterday after not playing since vine stalkers were introduced but I saw at least two other people post good ideas for balancing that spell. It's weird to be so IT CANT POSSIBLY BE FIXED. about it
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 17:18
|
|
|
As someone who was a new player once it was nice to have High Elf because it is a familiar troupe. I imagine most people who play for the first time pick a race they have heard of before. As for demigods I like the posters idea of changing up their mechanics via denouncing or something similar. What is the point otherwise if you could just worship Chei. If it's having a game enforced athiest option you could implement that with a start option. "Are you an athiest? (Not for beginners, Gods are cool doods worthy of worship)"
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 17:32
|
|
|
dpeg posted:Singularity: you know this psychological effect how it feels much worse if you find 10$ on the street and have to part with 5$ rather than just finding 5$? In a sense, Singularity has never existed. It was tried out, and found to be absolutely, unrepairably overpowered. For most things removed, you could (and people do) say: "why not think a bit harder about how to replace it?" That's true, but it is hard. So if you really think that Singularity should be a Crawl spell, make ideas how to improve it. This has happened., and be persistent. You may even have to make a thread on the tavern or something to keep the idea alive. Okay, this is totally bullshit. People pitched plenty of ideas about how singularity could of been changed to not be broken when it was removed. None of them were even tested. Zarick posted:This is not really fair either, because (with the exception of Ferrinus), I haven't seen anyone who's mad about the removal of Singularity provide any ideas or feedback on how to make it reasonable to keep. I could be wrong about this, but mostly the cries for its return just go "bring back Singularity!" with no suggestions on how it could be included without breaking the game. No people made plenty of suggestions about how it could be changed. They were just ignored. They made these suggestions back when it was removed several versions ago and gave up because nobody listened. I really don't feel like any "ideas" ever get implemented if you don't go and code them yourself. Which is fair honestly, but don't pretend there aren't people that have supplied feedback about how things could be better balanced.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 17:42
|
|
|
Hey, uh, why not just merge high elves and hopkins? People get to have their favorite set of apts back (which is frankly a lot more interesting than hopkins' across-the-board averageness), and now the race is slow/hoppy to differentiate it from tengus or whatever. Hopkins are a really fun idea, but in practice I don't feel like they're that unique tbh.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 17:53
|
|
|
High elves might make more sense as the chill, easygoing race with really high aptitudes at anything they try their hand at but no discipline to truly master anything.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 18:04
|
|
|
WEEDCAT posted:I had an idea for Demigods a while back that might make them more interesting to the average player, admittedly this is just a concept and I haven't examined what it would take to balance and it will be complicated with so many gods in the pantheon. The bits about permanent wraths applies as in your proposal. I hope to live to see altar desecration in Crawl, what's a video game without it?! dpeg fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Jan 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 18:11
|
|
|
The clear answer to all this negativity... is to buff felids. edit: actually fuckit, just buff them anyway. silentsnack fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Jan 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 18:18
|
|
|
Zarick posted:This is kind of a bad analogy. Keeping with your example, we found $10 and had to part with $10. Singularity was added and then removed totally. Internet Kraken posted:Okay, this is totally bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 18:21
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:High elves might make more sense as the chill, easygoing race with really high aptitudes at anything they try their hand at but no discipline to truly master anything. If the species ends up in a place where it is likely to be added, I can ask about it and consider it during the bikeshedding phase (because human with the head of a dog was a midnight decision for flavor because I wanted to make a dog joke). However, that might just make people more upset when High Elves return but aren't exactly what they used to be.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 18:26
|
|
|
There's a number of ways to accept ideas. Hint: Your approach is dysfunctional.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 18:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 06:06 |
|
|
Fitzy Fitz posted:Hey, uh, why not just merge high elves and hopkins? People get to have their favorite set of apts back (which is frankly a lot more interesting than hopkins' across-the-board averageness), and now the race is slow/hoppy to differentiate it from tengus or whatever. I agree. I find races with clear aptitude strength/weaknesses or features that have major gameplay effects (Ds, Dr, DG) to be more interesting.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2017 18:27
|
|
