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Phi230 posted:How do you mean heroic? Slightly larger than "normal" 28mm. They're roughly the same size as Bolt Action minis but the Black Tree stuff I have is better proportioned and designed. edit: here's a quick and shoddy comparison:  Left to right: Warlord Games Winter US Army HQ, Wargames Factory Soviet, Black Tree Designs Partisan Tank Bomber, Warlord Games Soviet Army HQ long-ass nips Diane fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 23:12
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So which would you suggest? I like the look of black tree Who has good vehicles though they all seem to be infantry Phi230 fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 23:32
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I'm torn between US and Soviet
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Jan 8, 2017 23:52
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Phi230 posted:So which would you suggest? I like the look of black tree It depends on what you want, how many models you need and what your budget is. If you're ordering right now, Black Tree is doing a 50% off sale on all of their infantry packs, but bulking out an entire army of, say, Soviet Infantry would be very expensive to do via them. What I've done for my all 3rd-party BA Stalingrad Soviet list is: * Plastic Wargames Factory for the bulk of my regular infantry squads. There are six 12-man squads, so I picked up 2 boxes. * Black Tree Designs Partisans that I'm mixing in with the Wargames Factory models to give the squads some differentiation and character. A few packets of these let me hit the 72 models I need for all of the infantry. * Black Tree Designs Assault Troops and Scouts to make up squads of those two things, and some Flamethrower troops because flamethrowers own. * Plastic Soldier Company Heavy Weapons to get all of those I'll ever need. * Rubicon T-34. My Winter US Army list is much simpler and all Warlord products, because that range is new, all-metal and looks pretty rad. I think their new plastic US Paratrooper box is really cool, too. If you're getting into something smaller scale like Chain of Command you can go nuts, because you don't need a huge amount of dudes and you can buy from any manufacturer you want that you think looks good. I'd recommend going on The minis page and looking through their forums for things you like.
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Jan 8, 2017 23:55
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Phi230 posted:I'm torn between US and Soviet Now you know how Hitler felt.
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Jan 8, 2017 23:57
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Phi230 posted:So which would you suggest? I like the look of black tree It depends on what you like. BA are heroic as all get out, with exaggerated proportions and cool poses. Perry are on the other end of the spectrum, and more strictly realistic. Personally I like 'em a bit heroic. I use BA pretty much exclusively. BA has a huge range of vehicles, with all the big iconic tanks being made by Italeri. Their Tigers, T-34s, Shermans etc are fantastic.
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Jan 8, 2017 23:58
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I find the heroic style ranges to be slightly easier to paint, which can be a bonus. After all, details like faces are exaggerated in size and depth. On the other hand, ww2 is one of those periods where you get very far with just a base coat and washes, as the uniforms are MEANT to make the wearers blend into the terrain. In the end I usually mix many ranges to find the stuff I want, and unless they are extremely different it'll work. Buy the ones you think look good. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 00:08
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And gameplay wise how do soviets play out in BA/CoC? Are they Enemy at the Gates kinda thing?
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Jan 9, 2017 00:12
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Phi230 posted:And gameplay wise how do soviets play out in BA/CoC? Are they Enemy at the Gates kinda thing? For ba at least early war Soviets are less charging and dying end masse so much as getting permenately pinned after taking a few shots, while your opponent captures all the objectives. Once you get to the Stalingrad lists they get a bunch of cool toys and more experienced troops so they become fairly versatile though Edit: the new 2nd edition rules that allow officers to help activate dudes probably helps, but wow inexperienced troops fuckin suckkkkk
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Jan 9, 2017 00:26
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Phi230 posted:And gameplay wise how do soviets play out in BA/CoC? Are they Enemy at the Gates kinda thing? My main opponent plays late-war Soviets. From what I've seen, they're one of the best armies to play super aggressively. The amount of duders he can field and deploy rapidly is pretty scary. A full squad of Vets with SMGs in a truck can be extremely nasty. Other than that, their tanks are decently priced and hardy, they have one of the most versatile artillery pieces in the game (Zis-3) and have some good national rules. They're a pretty cool force.
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Jan 9, 2017 00:51
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Phi230 posted:And gameplay wise how do soviets play out in BA/CoC? Are they Enemy at the Gates kinda thing? Also, in that rule set a dude with a rifle is a dude with a rifle. Aside from "green" troops (who are easier to hit because they don't know enough to keep from making lethal mistakes on the battlefield), there really isn't any metric of "quality," so it avoids the (historically inaccurate) trope of hordes of guys with lovely guns and no training. But green troops are like a 33% discount, so if you want to take lovely troops and lots of 'em, you can do that. But the same applies to late-war, scraping-the-bottom-of-the-barrel Waffen SS formations - you go green with the troops, which frees up points for a decent tank or two, which again is a very historically accurate force composition.
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Jan 9, 2017 07:54
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Another cool thing you can do as BA Soviets is forward deploy up to 3 four man tank hunter teams that you can arm with SMGs and panzerfausts. They can occupy prime spots on the board, hunt small teams and force the other guy to screen his tanks carefully. They're really good at tying up more expensive units for a couple of turns. I don't remember if this is still kosher but you used to be able to forward deploy an M3 White Scout Car if you took it as a transport for a scout squad.
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Jan 9, 2017 08:08
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Phi230 posted:And gameplay wise how do soviets play out in BA/CoC? Are they Enemy at the Gates kinda thing? The gameplay differences in COC between nations lie entirely in the equipment and organization of the armies, which they strive to have historically accurate. COC (correctly) does not differentiate at all between individual soldiers - A Russian with a rifle is exactly the same as a German with a rifle, whether that Russian is a guards rifleman, a marine, or a partisan, and whether that German is a Wehrmacht Panzergrenadier, a Waffen-SS, or a Volkssturm. You have a choice between making your platoon Green, Regular, or Elite, which affects how effective they are. As an example, here's a regular Soviet rifle platoon: quote:Senior Leader, Lieutenant or similar, with pistol - This is the guy with the fancy hat who is in charge of the entire platoon. A regular German rifle platoon, which can either represent Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS, or if you make them Green quality, volkssturm: quote:Senior Leader, Lieutenant or similar, with a SMG Although each man is the same in both platoons, there are three key differences that affect how they play more than you might think at first: 1) The Germans have a belt-fed MG42, while the Russians have a magazine-fed DP machinegun. The belt-fed MG42 rolls eight dice, while the magazine-fed DP rolls six. This means the Germans have a slightly better MG. 2) The Germans have a built-in Panzerfaust team This means their platoon can deal with armor with no additional support. 3) The German squads are split into two distinct teams. This means you can give each team separate orders, but also that they need to use two separate orders to give orders like Overwatch to the entire squad. This is a double-edged sword. The Soviet player can split his squad into teams once on the table, and likewise the German player can merge his teams, but this is the way they deploy. Because the Germans are better equipped with better MGs and a Panzerfaust team, their platoon strength is higher than the Soviets - The Soviets have 3 more support points to spend on things outside the platoon, such as vehicles and specialist teams. Other than this, the different nations have different support lists, which means they can buy different things with their support points. The Soviets can't buy a Tiger, obviously. However, the differences between the support lists are pretty minimal, gameplay-wise. The biggest difference is that the Soviets lack any good man-carried anti-tank weapons, such as the Panzerfaust. They only have anti-tank rifle teams (which are garbage against anything bigger than a Panzer II), and Tank-Hunter teams (also garbage unless your enemy really likes to have his tanks hang out unsupported in the middle of forests), and have to rely on towed AT guns and their own tanks to do that job.
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Jan 9, 2017 10:57
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I introduced a friend to COC and we played a game. The friend is a complete newcomer to miniatures and wargaming. He was blown away by my (in my view) decidedly mediocre and semi-speed painted Soviet infantry. Playing people new to the hobby is great for your painting self-esteem. 
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Jan 9, 2017 12:09
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Geisladisk posted:I introduced a friend to COC and we played a game. The friend is a complete newcomer to miniatures and wargaming. He was blown away by my (in my view) decidedly mediocre and semi-speed painted Soviet infantry. Casually browse wargaming sites: feel like a great painter Casually browse scale model sites: feel like a talentless pile of poo poo
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Jan 9, 2017 12:23
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Geisladisk posted:2) The Germans have a built-in Panzerfaust team This means their platoon can deal with armor with no additional support. Do these guys have a finite number of panzerfausts? Is it treated like grenades?
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Jan 9, 2017 14:55
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drat CoC sounds baller what does support look like? Like whats the upper limit on it? Mortar team? SPG? Field howitzer?
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Jan 9, 2017 14:59
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Phi230 posted:drat CoC sounds baller Support can be anything from a medic to a pre-game artillery barrage to a tank. It all depends on the disparity between the strength of the two forces and a 2d6 roll. There's a big table that gives you options. I hear taking a tank can be a real dick move, haven't seen it myself yet. DiHK posted:Do these guys have a finite number of panzerfausts? Is it treated like grenades? I think you get 3 shots before you have to try to resupply at a jump-off point but I might be mixing that up with something else.
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Jan 9, 2017 15:21
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Edit: slightly beaten, eh whatever here's the same thing in more detail Technically the skies the limit, but generally the scenario you play will determine the amount of support points you get (with modifiers such as who's the attacker in addition to the actually force strength difference of the two armies if there is one). These are cumulative, so if you are an attacker who rolled a 5 for your force support bonus as was directed by the scenario you are playing, and are fielding a Strength 2 force against a Strength 5 force your total allotted support points are 8. Unlike BA, where static point values are used to buy everything (Tank A costs 150 points, etc) in COC there are support option lists. List 1 will cost you 1 support point, and is usually small things like an engineer team, or a minefield. Picking something from List 7 will cost 7 support points and will including things like a Pak 40 anti tank gun, a Panzer IV tank, or a StuG III assault gun. So in the example above, as the attacker if you had 8 points, you could pick a List 1 engineer team to clear obstacles the defender will probably set up and a List 7 Panzer IV to push with your infantry. Or pick any combination of choices from the lists so long as they total 8. Springfield Fatts fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 15:23
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Phi230 posted:drat CoC sounds baller Light mortars are fielded on the board, and are most common in early and mid war lists. They were often discarded later on, but for example Barbarossa period Germans will have them in most platoons. Japanese and French have those small knee-mortar and rifle grenade weapons too. Heavier mortars are represented by Forward Observers (FO). They are small teams of specialists who can call down artillery barrages from off-map artillery on targets that they spot. Once dialled in, the mortars will keep on pounding the target area, but will stop once a turn ends. Notice that what's called turns in most games are phases in CoC, and turn endings are a bit uncommon but can be forced by players under certain conditions, such as rolling 3 6's or more on the command dice at the start of a phase, or using up a CoC die, which you get from gathering 5's on the command dice. There are stats for fieldng SPGs firing direct fire, but if they are acting as artillery they would be treated as a normal artillery/mortar barrage. E: as for bringing tanks being a dick move, it depends. Having a tank against a platoon without decent anti-tank options is almost an auto-win in 39-41. As real world armies faced exactly this problem as well, they would eventually equip most platoons with anti-tank weapons like bazookas, PIATs and panzerfausts. These make tanks a lot more vulnerable to infantry. We've been mostly playing 1941, and we've had some successes with satchel charges. But most of the time a tank will make short work against a platoon that doesn't have a good anti-tank gun (Pak-36 has again and again proven to me that it DOESN'T qualify), or a tank of their own. Meetings between two platoons with one tank each can be extremely tense and fun games. Edit2: after playing relatively regularly for two years, I'd say that anti-tank guns are definitely underperforming compared to tanks of a similar support cost in CoC. So keep that in mind if you find tankamania starts running wild over your group. We've introduced several nerfs to tanks, and they are still great compared to AT guns. I suspect that things get a lot more equal in later periods, where you have more AT weapons in the platoon structure itself. It also seems that the game was made with a clear emphasis on 44-45, so just be aware of a certain bias in the balance if you play earlier periods. EDIT 3 (I know): if you get a real hankering for steel there are rules for fielding tank platoons. Never field tank platoons against infantry platoons (that is just plain murder). Run tank platoons against each other, and go *kpcho krrrrch blaow* as you fire AP shells left and right before ramming a T-34/85 into a Pz. II at full speed. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 15:26
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All this has been answered before but w/e DiHK posted:Do these guys have a finite number of panzerfausts? Is it treated like grenades? They get 3 and then they have to resupply at a jump off point. In practical terms they very rarely get to fire three. Phi230 posted:drat CoC sounds baller Small mortars can be represented on-table, but any fire support larger than, say, a 2 inch mortar is not present on the table. You can still buy it with your support points, but it's real far away and as such isn't on the table. They just fire on the table. Some examples of support, from the Soviet list: 1 point: A medic 3 points: 37mm anti-tank gun with 5 crew 6 points: T-34-76 8 points: T-34-85 11 points: IS-2 RAW you're supposed to roll 2d6 for the support points available, with each side getting an equal amount modified by their platoon strength, and the defender getting half that in scenarios with attackers and defenders. That's not really practical though, I'm pretty sure most people just have a pre-arranged support point limit. long-rear end nips Diane posted:I hear taking a tank can be a real dick move, haven't seen it myself yet. It can - This is definitely a game where you have to have a pre-game dialogue with your opponent to insure you both have a good time. We played a game where the German player took a Tiger I, and the Soviet player took a Sherman M4 and a tank hunter team. The Tiger dominated the game, with the M4's little bitch cannon dinging harmlessly off the Tiger, and the Tiger then obliterating the Sherman. This is less of a problem if you're playing late war, where most platoons have built-in AT, like the Panzerschreck, but you definitely need to make sure that if one side is bringing some serious tanks, the other side can somehow deal with it - Unless, of course, you've made a scenario where one side is intentionally outgunned. But then both players know what they're getting into. You just need to discuss it beforehand - Games where one side has a lot of tanks, or one really good tank, and the other has a lot of infantry AT and towed AT guns are a lot of fun. So are games where both sides have a good number of lovely tanks. Games where both sides have one heavy are generally not great - Because the game revolves around which heavy tank lands a solid hit on the other first, and whoever loses his heavy is basically out. Geisladisk fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 15:47
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lilljonas posted:Casually browse wargaming sites: feel like a great painter The eternal struggle.
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Jan 9, 2017 16:36
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On the tanks vs infantry thing, armor has the potential to dominate early-war engagements. That said, some of the towed AT guns listed in the book are actually over-costed, so look in the "Consolidated Arsenal" (community-maintained and available online as a Google Doc). I am in the midst of a North Africa campaign right now, and one of the campaign rules is that if the Germans gain the initiative, they may make an armored counter-attack using a tank platoon (which turned out to be 5x Pz III Gs). Fortunately for the British, the 2-pounder AT gun is dirt cheap, so between the Force Rating disparity, the number of supports for the scenario, and the campaign bonuses (the Battalion CO has grown to like the Platoon Lt because he gets results, and therefore throws more support his way), they were able to field 4x 2-pound guns. One of them never even got deployed; 3 was sufficient to murder enough German tanks to stop the counter-attack cold. Another thing worth considering is that in many cases you don't necessarily have to kill the tank - often, your better bet is to kill off your opponent's infantry or (if he chooses not to deploy it) capture his Jumping-Off Points and crash his Force Morale. But by the late-war period, the profusion of rocket-powered, man-portable AT weapons makes bringing tanks a risky business, especially in close quarters where they can be ambushed at short range (and often against their weaker side armor).
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Jan 9, 2017 17:15
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Phi230 posted:drat CoC sounds baller
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Jan 9, 2017 17:17
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Ilor posted:By the way, if you want to read about how the game actually plays, my North Africa campaign AARs are here - I include a phase-by-phase write-up, including what was rolled on the Command Dice so you can see how it all works in play. Handy link: http://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3727 Great inspiration for our preparations for North Africa 2017. I'm put on tank painting duty:  I have a bunch of coc stuff of various quality here: http://krigetkommer.weebly.com Under the download section you can find platoon structures for some of the less common ones, especially 41-42 east front. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 18:05
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Happy (?) to report that I managed to gently caress up assembling the M3A3s for Tanks!, but its not like I'll be playing with nerds. If I don't get it, neither will my girlfriend. I don't know how to attach the hedgecutters and why is sherman V only 4 HP?
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Jan 9, 2017 21:23
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Crossposting from the scale model thread: Tried to get some decent shots of my DAK tanks (Tamiya 1:48), but gently caress me if I can ever get focus. Need to get a decent tripod or something.  Happy 2017 and build tons of tanks, y'all  High Fantasy StuG III: afaik, there was about 7 (!) StuGs in the desert, and they'd be earlier models than this without shürzen.       I tried a ton of new stuff on these: - preshading and highlights with airbrush - chipping with sponge - enamel wash In the end I think they are over-weathered, as you'll bound to do when you try new techniques, but they were hella fun to build and paint. Tamiya 1:48 AFVs are totally my jam now.
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Jan 9, 2017 23:06
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No, dude, these aren't over-weathered at all. They look fantastic!
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Jan 9, 2017 23:09
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Ilor posted:No, dude, these aren't over-weathered at all. They look fantastic! Thanks! I'm really going back and forth beween Rubicon/Warlord/Italero and Tamiya: sturdier tanks models are definitely the way to go, objectively, for wargaming, but at the same time I love the detailed Tamiya kits, even if half of the details are bound to get trashed after a few games. Those shürzen will break off in a stiff breeze, be warned if you're looking for wargaming tanks.
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Jan 9, 2017 23:13
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lilljonas posted:Those shürzen will break off in a stiff breeze, be warned if you're looking for wargaming tanks. 
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Jan 9, 2017 23:22
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Ilor posted:That's why I magnetized my schürzen. nice
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Jan 9, 2017 23:23
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I think I've posted these before, but these are actually the same tank: ...and...  The first is a Pz III Ausf J and the second is a Pz III Ausf N with schürzen, hull armor reinforcement, and heavy turret mantlet. And I can do pretty much anything in between.
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Jan 9, 2017 23:34
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I hope that Stalin and Hitler have rules because I'm totally getting those models from Black Tree and having them fight
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Jan 9, 2017 23:51
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Phi230 posted:I hope that Stalin and Hitler have rules because I'm totally getting those models from Black Tree and having them fight My summer project is to go all Dinoriders with our desert forces. What's better, the Dinosaurier Afrika Korps or the Long Range Dinosaur Group?
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Jan 9, 2017 23:56
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lilljonas posted:My summer project is to go all Dinoriders with our desert forces. What's better, the Dinosaurier Afrika Korps or the Long Range Dinosaur Group? Obviously Nazi Dinosaurs just like Danger 5
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Jan 9, 2017 23:59
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lilljonas posted:My summer project is to go all Dinoriders with our desert forces. What's better, the Dinosaurier Afrika Korps or the Long Range Dinosaur Group? Why do you have to choose?
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Jan 10, 2017 00:01
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long-rear end nips Diane posted:Why do you have to choose? Well I only got one 1/35 Triceratops to convert.... *frantically browsing for a second dinosaur kit*
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Jan 10, 2017 00:07
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Does anyone have a recommendation for inexpensive kits for ww2 trucks to use alongside 28mm minis? I want to field a motorized German platoon for don't feel like spending 60 bucks on trucks
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Jan 10, 2017 00:43
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lilljonas posted:My summer project is to go all Dinoriders with our desert forces. What's better, the Dinosaurier Afrika Korps or the Long Range Dinosaur Group? lilljonas posted:Well I only got one 1/35 Triceratops to convert....
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Jan 10, 2017 00:45
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You will be very excited to learn that Eureka Miniatures has a Jurassic Reich range in 28mm. 
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Jan 10, 2017 01:33
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