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An elaboration is that earlier I proposed the possibility of an approach to the Force in which the entire Dark/Light struggle is irrelevant. At least one poster interpreted this as a wholly alien mindset inaccessible to humans. SMG quoted something calling the death of Christ the ultimate pagan scandal. This is where he conflated the paganism of Rome with the entire world outside of it. The scandal of the Christian world is that there were places in which Christ's death was never necessary, that possibilities outside of their God and his death exist. I am saying that there are people who never needed Christ but were forced to accept him. For these people, Christ came to enslave them. The truly terrifying part is that the suffering inflicted on them thereby lead many to embrace Christ. Christians learned that by inflicting suffering, they could make Christ necessary to people who never needed him. This is the power Palpatine wields. e: those who believe that all of this was done despite Christ and his teaching instead of by Christ according to his teaching are Zod. I am saying that Superman was right to destroy them. Krypton had it's chance. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 20:49
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Danger posted:From that site: Except that's already been thoroughly debunked in this thread: Ob i-Wan's costume is different from the moisture farmers in Episode IV already, being based on samurai garb. Likewise, the Jedi have individual robes in the prequels, all of which are different from the moisture farmer look. There'S a huge post with all the different costume designs and designer'S comments on them that shows that this particular meme is bullshit.
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Jan 9, 2017 21:09
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MonsieurChoc posted:Except that's already been thoroughly debunked in this thread: Ob i-Wan's costume is different from the moisture farmers in Episode IV already, being based on samurai garb. Likewise, the Jedi have individual robes in the prequels, all of which are different from the moisture farmer look. There'S a huge post with all the different costume designs and designer'S comments on them that shows that this particular meme is bullshit. If someone has this post, I'd love to read it.
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Jan 9, 2017 21:21
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Bongo Bill posted:If you look at a shot where moisture farmers and Jedi are both in frame, you can visibly see that the farmer robes are made of much coarser material. The Jedi ostentatiously dress like peasants, but they still live in a palace just down the street from the Senate, and that's something they carry with them everywhere. Yeah, notice that in RO, Jyn's mom is wearing something approaching Jedi robes, yet for all we know she's just a farmer.
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Jan 9, 2017 21:25
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Hodgepodge posted:I am saying that there are people who never needed Christ but were forced to accept him. For these people, Christ came to enslave them. The truly terrifying part is that the suffering inflicted on them thereby lead many to embrace Christ. Christians learned that by inflicting suffering, they could make Christ necessary to people who never needed him. A similar point came up in a conversation I had the other day about Silence. I wouldn't have expected Silence and Star Wars to evoke similar theistic arguments.
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Jan 9, 2017 21:27
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Cnut the Great posted:Hey, why don't we just ask John Mollo, the guy literally in charge of designing the costumes for Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back? Cnut the Great posted:Sorry for my harsh tone. But like many things, I find it hard to understand why this has emerged as a perennial criticism of the prequels, because, I mean, did you actually watch the movies or didn't you?
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Jan 9, 2017 22:29
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There's also the part where dead Jedi Anakin in ROTJ wears those same kind of robes as Obi-Wan and Yoda. So I don't see how anybody could have expected Jedis to wear anything dramatically different from 1983 on.
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Jan 9, 2017 23:16
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MonsieurChoc posted:Except that's already been thoroughly debunked in this thread: Ob i-Wan's costume is different from the moisture farmers in Episode IV already, being based on samurai garb. Likewise, the Jedi have individual robes in the prequels, all of which are different from the moisture farmer look. There'S a huge post with all the different costume designs and designer'S comments on them that shows that this particular meme is bullshit. Also it behooves the Jedi to wear robes that are easily mistaken for robes a poor moisture farmer would wear - something common - since part of a Jedi's role is that of an intelligence operative, a spy.
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Jan 9, 2017 23:52
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Hodgepodge posted:An elaboration is that earlier I proposed the possibility of an approach to the Force in which the entire Dark/Light struggle is irrelevant. At least one poster interpreted this as a wholly alien mindset inaccessible to humans. The power Palpatine wields is precisely what SMG is alluding to."Pagan" as i've always read it, applies to rationalisations and justifications of atrocities carried out in the service to some Big Other, acts justified for a "greater good" or as "natural outcomes" or whatever. Christ's teaching confronts this directly. Like you say, he came to bring the sword - Love - that cuts through such rationalisations. In this sense, the death of Vader is the ultimate pagan scandal, because he didn't bring balance to the force. In doing so he demonstrated that the emperor has no clothes, undermining this power with a tragic punchline. SMG was in agreement with you, this dark/light struggle is irrelevant, but Palpatine is a symptom. The Jedi Order didn't question taking command of a slave army, or that slavery persists outside their purview; The Republic allowing a conglomerate the same rights as a planetary political body within the senate and so on, Palpatine simply exploited what was already there.The tricky part is what comes after Vader's death, if the Republic is restored. Charlie Rose: What are we talking about here then? Must there be a Superman?   Senator June Finch: There is.   
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Jan 9, 2017 23:52
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The "Radical Christianity" Zizek has to offer is more or less Gnosticism without the numinous, the ecstatic, the contemplative. Which, to be fair, is about what you can expect out of a fairly orthodox Marxist trying to engage with religion. It's an interpretative framework, but good lord, don't try to make it the center of your spirituality.
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Jan 10, 2017 00:46
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Hodgepodge posted:I am saying that there are people who never needed Christ but were forced to accept him. For these people, Christ came to enslave them. The truly terrifying part is that the suffering inflicted on them thereby lead many to embrace Christ. Christians learned that by inflicting suffering, they could make Christ necessary to people who never needed him. Who are these people who never needed the universal emancipation that Christ stands for? In Star Wars terms, you are implicitly taking about the primitive-communist Ewoks. Weren't they 'better off' not being discovered? The first problem here is that, again, the Ewoks don't have healthcare. They practice cannibalism and so-on. But, moreover: the ship has sailed. Now that they've been contacted, there's no going back. So what are they going towards? This imagery is very deliberately racially charged, but the point of any such 'first contact' story (as Star Trek has always toyed with) is that these 'primitive' people confront us with our own limitations. Will the Ewoks be brothers in a true universal democracy, or will they be simply assimilated into a Republic as token faces of the liberal multiculture (as Jar Jar was)? You can say that Jar Jar was better off in the swamp under Boss Nass' rule, but the truth is that the Republic's colonialism - what ripped the Gungans violently out of their life-world - is also what opened up the space of universality for them. "Another example to make this clear, one of my heroes Malcolm X, the great American fighter for black rights, who was a little bit more violent than Martin Luther King jr., chose to replace his family name with just an X, as the unknown, because at an immediate level he wanted to emphasize how the blacks, by being torn out of their African ancestral homes, are deprived of their roots. But the programme of Malcolm X was not, 'so let’s return to those roots,' but X means: what if we grasp this very void into which our enslavement put us, the fact that we don’t have any genuine tradition to rely on, that we have to, as it were, collectively, re-invent our identity as a unique opportunity of freedom. And it’s also clear that he followed this line, in the end he was right, he found a new universalist frame in Islam. He had no dreams about returning to origins." -Zizek In much the same way, Martin Luther King is much more a Christian than any of the people who sought to oppress him. The danger is in saying that universality itself is the problem, and 'if you have a point of view, then you are truly lost!'
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Jan 10, 2017 01:38
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You don't need something until you know it exists.
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Jan 10, 2017 01:47
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Yeah, Malcolm's conversion to Islam had no effect on how he saw himself and certainly didn't provide any traditions for him to act within. Not a bit.
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Jan 10, 2017 01:53
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Star wars thread, in which SMG defends the White Man's Burden
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Jan 10, 2017 01:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Who are these people who never needed the universal emancipation that Christ stands for? The healthcare aspect of this argument is deeply ironic, considering what Christians brought to the Americas wasn't healthcare. It was smallpox. In terms of Star Wars, there is no option presented outside of the Dark/Light dichotomy. This leads many to assume that these are objective, scientific aspects of the Star Wars reality. In our world, the people who didn't need Christ were the people who were not already enslaved by Rome and had never believed in its gods or that of Judaism. And in the end, your "now what" is a permutation of my observation that Christianity creates the suffering it proposes to solve. "Oh, I'm sorry that everyone who spoke your language is dead and we beat you for speaking it as a child. Have you heard the Good News?" quote:The danger is in saying that universality itself is the problem, and 'if you have a point of view, then you are truly lost!' Is the only possible point of view universal? The connection between universality and imperialism barely needs to be elaborated upon. (Note that this doesn't foreclose the possibility that we, the West, need Christianity. The most difficult thing for a white man to admit is that his problems and solutions are his own and not everybody else's). Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 02:08
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Jack Gladney posted:Yeah, Malcolm's conversion to Islam had no effect on how he saw himself and certainly didn't provide any traditions for him to act within. Not a bit. It has nothing to do with 'abandoning traditions'. X found a new universalist frame in Islam. In Christianity, you have the Holy Spirit which is the community of believers. The origin of these believers is irrelevant: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Phi230 posted:Star wars thread, in which SMG defends the White Man's Burden That is precisely the opposite of what I wrote the burden is on the Ewoks. Will they get such things as universal healthcare, and what kind of bullshit will they have to go through to get it? Can they coexist without being exploited? The point of evoking the 'violent' X is that they will undoubtedly have to fight for it.
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Jan 10, 2017 02:31
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Officially, at least in the nu eu they get used as comforters for wounded rebel and republic military.quote:As a manner of recompense for saving Endor, some Ewoks agreed to travel offworld to help Rebel veterans recuperate, working with Doctor Arsad as "therapy Ewoks." Therapy Ewoks were offered to those who had suffered the horrors of war, such as decapitation or witnessing tragedy, and needed help with their recovery. Those that found this option distasteful were sometimes given the use of a therapy droid instead. They are fuzzy and like being stroked. ShineDog fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 02:36
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Okay, I finally saw Rogue One, and it's loving awesome. I'm looking forward to watching the entire series again, from Episode 1 through Episode 6, because the ending of Rogue One actually strengthens the end of A New Hope. This Rebellion made up of the dregs of society--war orphans, deserters, mendicants, criminals, you name it--is led by a loving committee of aristocrats in silk capes. The fighters have sacrificed everything, even their own morals, and the committee decides to just throw it all away after concluding that they don't have a pragmatic master plan. So the revolutionaries pull it off in spite of them, and then literally with their dying screams hand off their achievements to a scion of this aristocracy. This is some serious "First as tragedy, then as farce" poo poo. Amazing. (Literally my only complaint about this movie is that I can't remember anyone's names. Gin Enzo, Rook Chinook, Saw Bobloblaw, K9 Cop, this is getting memey so I'll stop now.)
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Jan 10, 2017 02:41
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It has nothing to do with 'abandoning traditions'. There were early Christians who encountered Buddhism and argued that the two faiths were identical. Are you arguing that the origin of the community of believers is irrelevant in that sense, that we should recognize "the Holy Spirit" as independent of this or that tradition and form a greater community based on a mutual desire for emancipation?
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Jan 10, 2017 02:44
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ShineDog posted:Officially, at least in the nu eu they get used as comforters for wounded rebel and republic military. I like how that excerpt can be read as "those who had suffered the horrors of war, such as [experiencing] decapitation."
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Jan 10, 2017 03:37
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Hodgepodge posted:There were early Christians who encountered Buddhism and argued that the two faiths were identical. Are you arguing that the origin of the community of believers is irrelevant in that sense, that we should recognize "the Holy Spirit" as independent of this or that tradition and form a greater community based on a mutual desire for emancipation? Correct!
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Jan 10, 2017 03:44
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Correct! We're in agreement then. Although I was kind of hoping for a lightsaber duel 
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Jan 10, 2017 03:47
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I'm sorry, this is very interesting but I'm unclear what point it is rebutting. What is the original argument that this is responding to?
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Jan 10, 2017 04:04
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It has nothing to do with 'abandoning traditions'. In fact, the "X" is about a new tradition.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:06
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Jewmanji posted:I'm sorry, this is very interesting but I'm unclear what point it is rebutting. What is the original argument that this is responding to? Someone earlier had argued that Obi-Wan was dressed as a farmer in ANH in order to blend in on Tatooine and that the prequels hosed up by aping that style for every jedi.
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Jan 10, 2017 10:11
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Thank you for finding this. Jewmanji posted:I'm sorry, this is very interesting but I'm unclear what point it is rebutting. What is the original argument that this is responding to? Big Mean Jerk posted:Someone earlier had argued that Obi-Wan was dressed as a farmer in ANH in order to blend in on Tatooine and that the prequels hosed up by aping that style for every jedi. And then someone made reference to a large post laying out the differences between all of the outfits worn, which I asked for.
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Jan 10, 2017 15:18
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Someone earlier had argued that Obi-Wan was dressed as a farmer in ANH in order to blend in on Tatooine and that the prequels hosed up by aping that style for every jedi. The former is correct, the latter is not.
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Jan 10, 2017 15:30
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It has nothing to do with 'abandoning traditions'. The Republic, as a neoliberal entity, no doubt would exploit the Ewoks. They didn't land on Endor, Endor landed on them
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Jan 10, 2017 15:50
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*forest moon of* Endor. Come on man.
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Jan 10, 2017 16:24
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euphronius posted:*forest moon of* Endor. Come on man. I was never clear if that meant the planet was Endor or if it was like "the land of mordor."
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Jan 10, 2017 17:02
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All of Star Wars take place around Endor. The desert moon, the ice moon, the no moon...
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Jan 10, 2017 17:09
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I always liked how Star Trek had a very anti imperialist message
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Jan 10, 2017 17:11
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Phi230 posted:I always liked how Star Trek had a very anti imperialist message Wut? Star Trek was imperialist as poo poo. Like, it's in the loving theme song.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:22
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Yeah, but the kind of imperialism where you let someone's planet fall into the sun because you wouldn't want to ruin their "authenticity."
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Jan 10, 2017 17:24
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Danger posted:Wut? Star Trek was imperialist as poo poo. Like, it's in the loving theme song. Prime directive says leave people alone
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Jan 10, 2017 17:24
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Phi230 posted:Prime directive says leave people alone This, I claim, is ideology.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:28
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Phi230 posted:Prime directive says leave people alone Don't they ignore this in basically every episode?
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Jan 10, 2017 17:29
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In TNG yeah. I am just getting through it now and I am midway thru season 3. They gently caress it up all the time. But it's a decent thing to follow.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:31
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Original Star Trek is all about collapsing social systems and leaving people in chaos with no alternative while Captain Kirk laughingly explains that they'll enjoy the challenge of building a society for themselves. He's really a very bad socialist and racist against totalitarian computer intelligences and omnipotent blobs.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:36
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The Ewoks all died a few years later when ten billion tons of debris de-orbited onto their moon
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Jan 10, 2017 17:37
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