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Cyno feedback (attn Floodkiller): First of all, I love the concept. High aptitude races are my favorite, and this gives you great flexibility with great drawbacks. The ultimate hybrid. I expected them to be great at the very beginning of the game, but it takes until D:5 or so to actually benefit from the great apts. As such, I lost quite a few to adders and gnoll packs by overestimating my strength and not caring if I died. I chose a Transmuter of Oka. I think one could make an argument for Transmuter being a preferred background. It's intensely skill heavy at first, but once you have Unarmed Combat and Transmutations to 10, you're doing really well with Blade hands. I expect Level 6 spells are the highest you can cast reasonably with the 14 skill cap? I'm not sure if UC will be lovely with only 14 skill. I'm curious to see how Blade Hands holds up, and try out Statue Form if I can find it. I found a Book of Power. I'm training up Magma bolt slowly for the hell of it. I'm halfway through Lair, and skill points feel nearly free now with Oka Heroism support. I'm also training Staves and hoping for a sweet Lajatang gift from Okawaru. Heroism really helps before/during Lair, but soon I won't need it. Finesse is still a damage multiplier. It seems like Ash would be an objectively bad choice. Is there anything you can do to improve that? I feel like the race needs something else to make it really fun. I'll have more feedback once I get into the true midgame, but I feel like skill choices will get boring around the Lair branches. There's just too much XP for the 14 skill cap at +2. If you stick with the dog theme, consider a bite auxiliary attack. This might be totally infeasible, but could the apts scale with XL? +5 until XL3, +4 until XL5, etc. Down to +1 across the board around XL20, but it raises the skill cap to 18 or higher. This might also be a terrible idea. If this isn't possible, I still think some way of slightly increasing the skill cap at great risk/drawback would be nice. If you have a great character, it would be nice for them to become extended capable somehow. Something like a racial ability to lower apts by 1 across the board, but increase skill caps by 2 maybe? Perhaps even start the race at +4/10 cap. This doesn't carry enough risk... maybe also incur fairly severe red drain when you use the ability? Flavor it as forcing yourself to become smarter somehow. I think my suggestions would make the race even more overpowered. As it is, I expect good players will be able to win with Cynos as much as if they were Gargoyles. Anyone know how to link the dump from an experimental branch? e: if you do go with a draining racial ability to increase the skill cap, here's a flavor concept: a race of Automatons that contain a brain from a dead humanoid. They are able to learn from its memories at superhuman speed, but to a limited capacity. Once the cap is reached, they may rescan it at a lower speed to try to learn more, but this takes significant effort. brainwrinkle fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 07:32
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Mighty Dicktron posted:Dogg you poisoned the well ages ago and very much established yourself as an rear end in a top hat who constantly points out their superiority to everyone in here even if you don't intend for that to be the case, is where the communication was hurt Then it's sure funny how lately 100% of the direct insult and juvenile behavior is coming from "pretty much everyone in here" instead of the constantly superior rear end in a top hat dev. Why take it upon yourself to speak for the crowd without mandate if all you're going to do is deliver an unproductive gently caress you to a german schoolteacher asking why so many of you appear to be so highly misanthropic? It's amusing when the playground bullies that romp around here punching arms get mortally offended by someone's lack of nuance in a second language and general failure to "get" SA. By amusing I mean sad and sucking any value out of the conversation. I don't mean to white knight dpeg, who can certainly be a prickly gently caress when the wind is right. But for gently caress's sake, enough. The simple answer to his question is this place is full of high verbals with memories that are long on slights and short on manners. This should be obvious to anyone reading a page or two of posts on any forum. It hardly bears further dissection, especially while we live in a world where there is a frog species that CANNOT APPORT ITEMS WITH THEIR TONGUES.
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Jan 10, 2017 07:49
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dpeg posted:They asked two rhethorical questions and added a statement. They started with "What the gently caress is accomplished with this" which does not read like a question to me. Perhaps I've been living for too long in academia and/or polite society, but if you want answers, try to pose questions. You react really strongly to any criticism you feel is too strongly worded or "mean", as if criticisms of your design decisions were personal insults. They're not, no matter how strongly worded, and even if they were, your reactions are spectacularly unhelpful and unlikable. I get that it's hard to have one's decisions/creations criticized, but you makes every time you show up here a lovely experience for both parties. You're defensive and vitriolic. It's possible to be a developer who has those traits, but maybe the Arcane Concil of Developers should choose a different emissary to communicate their whims to the public. edit: Yeah, the lack of Tongue Apport on frogmen is an astonishing travesty. LogicNinja fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 08:29
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Araganzar posted:CANNOT APPORT ITEMS WITH THEIR TONGUES. What if instead of apporting stuff frogs could disarm enemies? Give it a long cooldown and its a powerful ability that you're only going to be able to do once in a normal length fight. Or maybe make it recharge on experience.
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Jan 10, 2017 10:15
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LordSloth: Thanks for the fish! It could've been fun while it lasted.
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Jan 10, 2017 10:22
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FINALLY http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/InternetKraken/morgue-InternetKraken-20170110-092735.txt 67 mummies died to achieve this win. Many certainly because I was tilted, but a lot because this combo is complete trash. I dunno why I thought this would work whenever I tried it years ago. Yeah lets play as one of the worst starts as one of the worst races. What could go wrong? I used magic but I didn't cast a single hex the whole game. Mummies garbage apts make investing in that school a huge mistake due to how unreliable it is. Think I'll play a gargoyle and just easy mode through the game because that was painful.
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Jan 10, 2017 10:36
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Play a formicid fighter. Its probably the most fun I've ever had in crawl. Just the right amount of restriction coupled with being able to literally be a tank.
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Jan 10, 2017 11:25
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I'd like to ask all of you to start being nicer to eachother itt. Chill out. This goes both to people dogpiling on dpeg and to dpeg himself. The first group could really tone down with the insults when something is changed that you don't like - SA culture or not, you should still try to discuss things instead of immediately going into 'what the gently caress' mode. Dpeg on the other hand, for all the manners and education you claim to have you sure can't stop melting down, throwing tantrums and overall displaying signs of your superiority complex. There's nothing to win here with this, you can only lose. Listen to your own advice, let more things slide. From now on I'll start probating for this behavior.
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Jan 10, 2017 11:29
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why is the thread 0.20
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Jan 10, 2017 11:31
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Someone got excited "Home of the frog dog" and got a little over eager asking the mods to change the title. The confusion is probably worth it. In the spirit of a better atmosphere in the thread I apologize to dpeg, I've been needlessly mean spirited about things that aren't really going to affect me since I plan to just stay on 0.19. I still disagree with the changes, but that's no reason to insult someone working on something for free where things could still be changed for (in my opinion) the better.
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Jan 10, 2017 12:37
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The thread title is real good so I can forgive the typo.
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Jan 10, 2017 12:39
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Cool i can play as a Battle Toad now. FR: Aux-attacks flying enemies from range, similar to using polearms.
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Jan 10, 2017 16:00
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Dpeg: does examining a monster after running it around dynamically update as well? I ran a goblin around a pillar a few times and I didn't notice any of it's key stats leveling up when I used examine and view details. I'm trying the change so I can give you concrete feedback. Edit: looks like it does update after a mob is 'bezotted', which happens after about 20 turns. Does it raise accuracy as well? Feels like once a mob gets it they tend to connect more often. Whaleporn fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 16:07
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Do they continually improve or is there some sort of ceiling?
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Jan 10, 2017 16:18
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I have yet to try running something around a corner benny hill style to get it to beef out, but the first enemy who did it without me trying to proc it was a phantom. Might make imps and phantoms more lethal to characters who have to rely on rng to hit them.
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Jan 10, 2017 16:26
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Piece of advice for crawlers new and old alike: use your identify scrolls on artifact armour unless you're fine with slapping some gear on that has *Contam and then finding some way better armour a few turns later. I haven't found a cancellation pot yet after clearing the dungeon, lair, swamp, snake, and orc 
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Jan 10, 2017 16:44
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brainwrinkle posted:Cyno feedback (attn Floodkiller): Thanks for the feedback! brainwrinkle posted:I chose a Transmuter of Oka. I think one could make an argument for Transmuter being a preferred background. It's intensely skill heavy at first, but once you have Unarmed Combat and Transmutations to 10, you're doing really well with Blade hands. I expect Level 6 spells are the highest you can cast reasonably with the 14 skill cap? I'm not sure if UC will be lovely with only 14 skill. I'm curious to see how Blade Hands holds up, and try out Statue Form if I can find it. The preferred backgrounds are currently just placeholders, so I'll consider Tm if it is still good once I stop making major modifications to the species. brainwrinkle posted:I'm also training Staves and hoping for a sweet Lajatang gift from Okawaru. Heroism really helps before/during Lair, but soon I won't need it. Finesse is still a damage multiplier. It seems like Ash would be an objectively bad choice. Is there anything you can do to improve that? Unfortunately, I don't think I can make Ash a better choice without fundamentally breaking the species (as it currently is). It isn't a bad thing that a god might not be viable for a species, as long as it isn't to the degree of Deep Dwarves. I don't think anyone expects Minotaur to be changed to accomodate better Sif Muna worship. brainwrinkle posted:I feel like the race needs something else to make it really fun. I'll have more feedback once I get into the true midgame, but I feel like skill choices will get boring around the Lair branches. There's just too much XP for the 14 skill cap at +2. This is an unfortunate side effect of having high apts with a low cap, and why I probably won't be going back above +2 for any future revisions as it only makes the problem worse. On the other hand, I don't want to go lower or it will lose the quality of being able to pick up any skill quickly. brainwrinkle posted:If you stick with the dog theme, consider a bite auxiliary attack. I'll definitely be considering adding a flavor mutation or two when I finish fleshing out the major portions of the species. I'm currently considering stuff like implementing the sense invisible that other dogs/wolves have, a bite attack, or a sense items radius. Any other dog joke mutation suggestions are also encouraged! brainwrinkle posted:This might be totally infeasible, but could the apts scale with XL? +5 until XL3, +4 until XL5, etc. Down to +1 across the board around XL20, but it raises the skill cap to 18 or higher. This might also be a terrible idea. I don't think the first idea would be good, as it just brings the species to being closer to the same as the other species, and also brings up the issue that aptitude changes recalculate how much skill you have (unlike when manuals do this). This is an issue because now the player needs to make sure to avoid leveling up at specific times to not accidentally 'drain' their character. I may experiment with a very low starting cap+ability to raise the cap in a future revision if a static cap doesn't work. However, I think I would try implementing it by forcing the player to permanently lose skills (like Ru) to increase the cap. This would probably be one opportunity every 5 XL or so (to stop start scumming), and I'm not sure whether it should be skills chosen at random entirely or giving the player a choice in some fashion. I'm going to try my hardest to stick to a static system first, because I feel adding dynamic systems to species can make the species more frustrating for newer players, unless it is done in a simple way (demonspawn vs vampire, for example). brainwrinkle posted:Anyone know how to link the dump from an experimental branch? You should be able to hit # and a morgue dump will appear in your chat window on WebTiles. If you have downloaded and compiled it offline, you'll have to navigate to your morgue folder and grab the game you want to show.
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Jan 10, 2017 16:46
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Floodkiller posted:Any other dog joke mutation suggestions are also encouraged! If a projectile hits you, it is added to your inventory and then you are mesmerized by and have faster movement speed towards the monster that fired it (because you are playing fetch with the centaur)
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Jan 10, 2017 17:38
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Will it lead to weird deaths where you fail to kill a bat for 30 turns until it hulks out and destroys you?
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Jan 10, 2017 17:38
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I don't think most normally played characters will have major issues with bezotting monsters, but it forces you to play more aggressive. I think my biggest problem is that it seems like it's a 'punish losers' mechanic since usually characters are trying to run for long periods from: overwhelming numbers of monsters and high hp targets/armor that they can't damage effectively, slower monsters that can't be handled by melee, blinking away/running monsters, packs of monsters with a smite target caster who is too dangerous to wade through trash for (entropy weavers now are a lose/lose: they corrode you and if you outrun them the pack of spiders is going to end up half zotted) On a spriggan aside from a goblin early on the only monsters that mutated were an orc warrior and duvessa, both because they got berserked and I had to run away full speed. Also a phantom nearly killed my first try because I was a melee, and they keep slipping away. I see the way it works will probably doom some characters that don't find effective damage methods before yak packs start coming around. At the very least it seems like monsters don't get upgrades offscreen which is good. Almost every other game that throws augmented monsters your way does so in a manner that makes them a risk/reward proposition: this thing can mess you up, but it's worth more exp or has a chance to drop rare items. In this, it seems like it's more rng punishment of the player for assessing that standing and fighting is a bad idea, or simply having a fight where you don't do much damage to an enemy and suddenly they might start clobbering you harder. I don't feel like the augmented monsters are more interesting to fight either, and even then the role of unique monsters in crawl already exists in terms of unique effects. That's off of 2 characters and seeing how the mechanic works. I think if your promoting monsters then birthday boys need to have some allure to fighting them, because at the moment it feels sort of like adding hell effects to the entire dungeon. Whaleporn fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 17:41
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If you are the dogman, Grum and his wolves should be your friend.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:42
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Floodkiller posted:
My latter concept was for an activated racial ability - increase your skill caps in exchange for reduced apts and drain. Each use of the ability lowers apts by 1 and increases the cap by 2. Using it unlocks more potential at a short term risky cost. Theoretically you could never use it and stay at +4 apts/10 cap all game. Use it twice and you get to +2/14. To get to 20 cap your apts go to -1. So as a species, it's very flexible early on but still prevented from mastering things easily. This approach also makes Ash useful, as she will support your apts after using the racial ability. The Ru-like method of sacrificing skills might be better, but I don't personally like it thematically or for gameplay. If you let the player choose, it's a bit too strong. If you select randomly, it's too much like Ru. Mainly I think there should be some interesting character building choices by the mid game. Even if the cap doesn't increase, there might be design space here. I did hit # to dump my character in webtiles, but it didn't link me to it.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:40
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This thread got pretty wild, geez. I haven't played in forever but I'd be thrilled to see a malmut and/or extended rework, though the former seems like it's been sidelined unfortunately (hopefully that's not on the "won't do" list? )
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Jan 10, 2017 19:20
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Unimpressed posted:gently caress dude, I thought you got voted off the island or something... Yeah, sorry again! Didn't realize how my post would read without context - it was thoughtless of me. apple posted:This thread got pretty wild, geez. Not a 'won't do', just sidelined. The won't do list is pretty stable... could maybe do with a review or reorg, though. Are there really people clamouring for "ice bridges"?
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Jan 10, 2017 22:26
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quote:Removing Paralysis LOL
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Jan 10, 2017 22:37
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The won't do list does have a link going into paralysis in further depth. Following that logic, you can see why they removed paralysis from hell effects. Though since that discussion happened, it predates the introduction and removal of an amulet of stasis and doesn't cover Giant Eyeballs - though it appears their special paralysis gaze takes time to charge?
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Jan 10, 2017 22:46
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Yeah, I read the longer explanation. It just didn't really move me.
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Jan 10, 2017 22:57
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Giant eyeball paralysis is fine because its tied to a rare enemy you know to play around. Paralysis in random spellbooks is pretty awful and I'm sure more people would complain about it if it didn't come up so rarely. Really that's the only reason paralysis as a mechanic doesn't get more hate I think. By the time it comes up, you usually have enough MR that paralysis chance is zero. I'm pretty sure all my paralysis deaths have been to orc sorcerers in the mines because I didn't have enough MR to resist them. Its notable though that while Hell paralysis is gone you can still get petrified. You can quaff cancellation to avoid that but you also need to burn through your very small amount of cancellation potions to get rid of Hell glow. If you're playing as a mummy I guess you just get to die and the devs laugh at you because RNG decided to petrify you in front of Hell Sentinels. EDIT: I think sleep is a much better version of paralysis honestly. It works the same way but you'll just take a ton of damage before getting to act. That's still punishing but not on the infuriating level of paralysis where you can easily go from full health to dead.
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Jan 11, 2017 00:22
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Here's my Malmutate fix: 30% chance for nothing to happen. 40% chance for a BadMut 30% chance for any non-restricted Mut *Necqoxecs & Shining Eyes get 'Cantrip' added to their spell list. *Cacodemons get promoted to Tier 1, with a corresponding reduction in spawn frequency. *OoF have it put on a breath timer. Speleothing fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 00:41
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PleasingFungus posted:Yeah, sorry again! Didn't realize how my post would read without context - it was thoughtless of me. Displaying the damage you do to monsters, having summons/allies give full XP, and creating high level acid spells in the poison school would all be good ideas.
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Jan 11, 2017 01:02
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I do hate trying to maximize xp when I play summoners.
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Jan 11, 2017 01:32
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Ferrinus posted:Displaying the damage you do to monsters, having summons/allies give full XP, and creating high level acid spells in the poison school would all be good ideas. Two out of three!
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Jan 11, 2017 02:02
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PleasingFungus posted:Two out of three! I'm guessing it's viable high level poison magic you disagree with, but the truth is that fully or partially irresistible top level spells for schools which initially had to deal with resistant or immune enemies would be par for the course, and there are at least a few blast templates or other delivery gimmicks which haven't yet been explored by the firestorm/glaciate/tornado/shatter/singularity pentafecta.
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Jan 11, 2017 02:15
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Even though I understand rationale behind removing giant eyeballs from the early game, I kind of miss them running into them there.
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Jan 11, 2017 02:29
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Ferrinus posted:I'm guessing it's viable high level poison magic you disagree with, but the truth is that fully or partially irresistible top level spells for schools which initially had to deal with resistant or immune enemies would be par for the course, and there are at least a few blast templates or other delivery gimmicks which haven't yet been explored by the firestorm/glaciate/tornado/shatter/singularity pentafecta. Smite-targeted toxic glue. 3x3 area. Irresistible Slow, spellpower based chance to paralyze. Strong poison. Spell failure chance for whole Slow effect duration, even to demons.
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Jan 11, 2017 02:52
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Speleothing posted:Smite-targeted toxic glue. 3x3 area. Irresistible Slow, spellpower based chance to paralyze. Strong poison. Spell failure chance for whole Slow effect duration. Hell yeah.
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Jan 11, 2017 02:53
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Bring back Haste as a level 9 poison spell that fatally poisons you when you cast it, and the effect is cancelled early if the poison is cured. You can't use it if you are immune to poison.
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Jan 11, 2017 03:01
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POison immunity seems broken btw, I'm hella getting poisoned all the time with an rP cloak
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Jan 11, 2017 03:03
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I think poison being so poor later on is an outdated design decision. It used to be that poison trivialized the early game but there is a lot more stuff that resists poison now. Venom mage literally has no way of dealing with rPois enemies so I wouldn't consider it the amazing start its made out to be. Darth Windu posted:POison immunity seems broken btw, I'm hella getting poisoned all the time with an rP cloak rPois doesn't confer immunity, just resistance. So you'll resist most poison attempts but they have a chance to break through it, dependent on monster HD I think. It shouldn't happen a lot though, and more importantly even if you only resist a few poison strikes you won't get poisoned multiple times. So it doesn't stack up and become super deadly. Poison immunity can't be obtained through gear. You have to either be an undead or statue.
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Jan 11, 2017 03:08
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Internet Kraken posted:Giant eyeball paralysis is fine because its tied to a rare enemy you know to play around. Paralysis in random spellbooks is pretty awful and I'm sure more people would complain about it if it didn't come up so rarely. Really that's the only reason paralysis as a mechanic doesn't get more hate I think. By the time it comes up, you usually have enough MR that paralysis chance is zero. I'm pretty sure all my paralysis deaths have been to orc sorcerers in the mines because I didn't have enough MR to resist them. You know what bugs me about Paralysis? I'd be fine if there were monsters that consistently cast Paralysis and I had to take that into account, and their stats took that into account. But something like an Ogre Mage *might* have paralysis and is unlikely to, and I just can't make myself take every turn as if they had the worst-case-scenario spellbook.
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Jan 11, 2017 03:12
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