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Oil of Paris posted:if a thread or forum is so hosed up that it needs to have a mod installed, the contributors in that thread/forum who made it totally lovely are probably not the best people for recommendations  Beet Wagon posted:As exciting as it is going to be to read a bunch of rules-lawyering about why "lmao all homos should die of AIDS" is not in fact extreme enough to fall afoul of the new 'almost anything goes' rule, maybe we could revisit the huge announcement about how blanket hatred based on gender/race/whatever is cool and good as long as it isn't too bad, whatever that means? It's pretty gross and I don't think d&d should head in that direction.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:43
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I donno if this is worth stating but I might as well: I don't think you can have a Perfectly In The Middle Impartial Debate Forum and also be funny. While there are certainly jokes that can appeal to everyone a lot of political humor tends to involve punching at someone else's closely held beliefs and especially in the current climate that's going to be really hard to laugh off with a shrug. A lot of people are genuinely and wholeheartedly scared (and not just on the left side) and it's pretty hard to let that lead into even bitter and cynical humor. I'm not really sure there's a solution to it but I don't really think you can expect impartiality from a subforum like this even if you had more diverse mods, not in the least because short of explicit statements you'll just get a lot of people rules lawyering or dog whistling around saying what they actually want to say until tempers flare. Which, again, the opposite of humor. You could try to make a more chill thread but understandably I think there isn't a ton of chill going on in the world right now.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:43
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Beet Wagon posted:As exciting as it is going to be to read a bunch of rules-lawyering about why "lmao all homos should die of AIDS" is not in fact extreme enough to fall afoul of the new 'almost anything goes' rule, maybe we could revisit the huge announcement about how blanket hatred based on gender/race/whatever is cool and good as long as it isn't too bad, whatever that means? lowtax said like 5 times that hatespeech is still banned lol no one thinks its ok to say "all homos should die of aids" thats a blatant strawman. like the whole announcement was that blanket hatred is not ok but using the word fag in a sentence doesnt count as blanket hatred
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Jan 12, 2017 20:44
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FactsAreUseless posted:It's not, and I'm sorry I implied this, and I'm also not the "main admin:" ZDR does so much more work keeping these forums going than me, and I was just made an admin alongside a few others all at once. Everyone here cares a lot about the forums, and I obviously spend a lot of time on them. It's been a frustrating few days and that all just spilled out. you're by far the most active and level headed one I see. even if you lean towards the problems I think this thread brings up you are always reasonable. these forums lack leadership, direction, and a vision. and that's a problem. Pop-o-Matic Trouble posted:This whole idea behind this thread feels really inappropriate for a public forum. it's like the democracy wall in china when a victor emerges we can purge the wrong-thinkers
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Jan 12, 2017 20:44
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Lowtax posted:I believe the entire purpose of this thread was to point out that a forum called "Debate and Discuss" should be *more* lenient with free speech, as opposed to more intolerant. I do not believe anything said was to be interpreted as "we are racists and want more racists." It's kind of the exact opposite. literally because you posted that funny photoshop from kiwifarms and said "hey maybe we can try and be more like this" clearly inferring being funny and creative, a ton of people are saying that you implied we should start doxxing and harassing people, since that is something else kiwifarms does. basically people just love to find things to be terrible about online.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:44
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Tolkien minority posted:lowtax said like 5 times that hatespeech is still banned lol no one thinks its ok to say "all homos should die of aids" thats a blatant strawman. like the whole announcement was that blanket hatred is not ok but using the word fag in a sentence doesnt count as blanket hatred perhaps, it does
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Jan 12, 2017 20:45
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paranoid randroid posted:id like to request a clarification regarding the verbiage "especially extreme" because ive got a thread idea percolating here, but im not sure if a discussion on my sincere belief that Armenians can astrally project into peoples dreams to steal their bank information is protected under this new rubric It doesn't matter what anyone posts though, someone will find fault somehow, and turn it into some big argument about why .999=1 or pizza with pineapple is bad. Besides, people are racists because they are boring. Hey look at this guy, he is different and I am not, so he must be wrong. Been this way since we penned in ink, i suspects.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:44
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Oil of Paris posted:if a thread or forum is so hosed up that it needs to have a mod installed, the contributors in that thread/forum who made it totally lovely are probably not the best people for recommendations Is that really how you see what happened? Negrotown was hosed up because of the regular posters, and not the random shitposters who would just drop in to troll?
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Jan 12, 2017 20:45
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i know that the prevailing argument strategy in DnD is poo poo like this, but it makes you look like an idiot
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Jan 12, 2017 20:45
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Chelb posted:perhaps, it does well the person that runs the forums and most of the userbase does not agree with you on that so it seems like you're sol
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Jan 12, 2017 20:45
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I don't like the negrotown thread because the denizens get to ignore some of the forums rules, but I think the new D&D mod should be given a fair shake. People who melt down about 6 hour probations should probably be probated more and longer.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:46
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Lowtax posted:I believe the entire purpose of this thread was to point out that a forum called "Debate and Discuss" should be *more* lenient with free speech, as opposed to more intolerant. I do not believe anything said was to be interpreted as "we are racists and want more racists." It's kind of the exact opposite. Frame this post.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:46
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Lowtax posted:Also I have no idea what the assertion is that I now encourage people to dox or harass people, I do not recall ever saying or inferring anything like that. It's another example of you're either with us or you're with them think. There are not just two groups of people with two different ideas in the world, and reducing discussion to that is ridiculous.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:46
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Lowtax posted:Also I have no idea what the assertion is that I now encourage people to dox or harass people, I do not recall ever saying or inferring anything like that. It's another example of you're either with us or you're with them think. There are not just two groups of people with two different ideas in the world, and reducing discussion to that is ridiculous. perhaps, but then you have a lot of people more interested in circlejerking about how Good and Positive they are and if you reduce your opponent to a single Bad Thing like a racist then you can just dismiss anything they say and refuse to engage because they are Bad and you are Good
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Jan 12, 2017 20:46
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Lowtax posted:I believe the entire purpose of this thread was to point out that a forum called "Debate and Discuss" should be *more* lenient with free speech, as opposed to more intolerant. I do not believe anything said was to be interpreted as "we are racists and want more racists." It's kind of the exact opposite. To give a topical example of this that's recently happened; post-election there's been more gbs regulars interacting with the D&D forum. Some of them have weird opinions, some dont. some posted in gamergate threads or other drama threads, some didnt. A lot of them are treated like scheming outsiders and lumped together as Alt Right Infiltrators for some reason or another. I like arguing and I like reading arguments, the new posters showing up to keep the forum active is Good and Cool, and should be encouraged instead of looking for the first unusual opinion to squeeze a probe/ban out of.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:46
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Nevvy Z posted:Is that really how you see what happened? Negrotown was hosed up because of the regular posters, and not the random shitposters who would just drop in to troll? i did not read the thread but installing a popular poster, especially in a ideologically divided setting, is a set up for drama exactly like we are seeing here
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Jan 12, 2017 20:46
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Lowtax posted:I believe the entire purpose of this thread was to point out that a forum called "Debate and Discuss" should be *more* lenient with free speech, as opposed to more intolerant. I do not believe anything said was to be interpreted as "we are racists and want more racists." It's kind of the exact opposite. thank you all anyone is saying is that when someone comes in here with an opinion you find disturbing, you tell them why it is wrong. like it or not, these forums are mostly stupid ignorant white people. full of white tears. like the good ol' country of the USA most of you live in and despise. if you are not willing to educate, debate, and explain to people why their opinions are wrong in your view and instead just label them racists and dogpile upon them shouting them down, then just rename this forum the safe space
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Jan 12, 2017 20:47
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Oil of Paris posted:i know that the prevailing argument strategy in DnD is poo poo like this, but it makes you look like an idiot Negrotown has forever been the victim of the non-black posters running in there and taking gigantic dumps on the decency and respect of the people in that thread, and that's regardless of gfsincere being extremely dumb.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:46
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Oil of Paris posted:if a thread or forum is so hosed up that it needs to have a mod installed, the contributors in that thread/forum who made it totally lovely are probably not the best people for recommendations
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Jan 12, 2017 20:46
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Oil of Paris posted:i know that the prevailing argument strategy in DnD is poo poo like this, but it makes you look like an idiot *totally appropriate and cool gif of tv person or celebrity i like doing something so i dont have to actually think or use words to respond*
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Jan 12, 2017 20:47
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ImpAtom posted:I donno if this is worth stating but I might as well: id argue that you cannot have a Perfectly in the Middle Impartial Debate Forum and also be coherent let alone funny. because if you enforce no curation beyond nebulous differentiations between levels of extremity, you end up with a situation where my sincere belief in Armenian Astral Projection Identity Theft is afforded the same level of admissibility as your sincere belief in whatever.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:47
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Tolkien minority posted:lowtax said like 5 times that hatespeech is still banned lol no one thinks its ok to say "all homos should die of aids" thats a blatant strawman. like the whole announcement was that blanket hatred is not ok but using the word fag in a sentence doesnt count as blanket hatred Lady's post obfuscates the whole issue: LadyAmbien posted:It does not exist to be a special space for you to all circle jerk each other off and feel superior to anyone who thinks differently EVEN IF that opinion is offensive. Essentially, people are taking a look at that and inferring as long as you aren't using specific slurs, it's going to be harder to police hate speech.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:47
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FactsAreUseless posted:Yeah, this is fair. Part of me wants some sort of public denunciation of this other site, like that's going to stop them or it's the reason it started. That doesn't actually solve the problem, I just can't shout at their dumb asses because they're on another website. uh maybe you should take a breather dude its just forums drama
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Jan 12, 2017 20:48
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Define Hate Speech.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:48
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Tolkien minority posted:*totally appropriate and cool gif of tv person or celebrity i like doing something so i dont have to actually think or use words to respond* So I guess this wraps back around to people getting mad at a handful of six hour probations? because that's some pretty weak poo poo, op
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Jan 12, 2017 20:49
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lol at mods upset that LadyAmbien posted this in public Clearly it was done to show, publicly, that you're getting called out for doing a bad job and the consequences of not changing. I mean that's in the first post. To put it another way. You're doing a bad job running this subforum and instead of accepting that your fake boss will fire you for not meeting your comedy quota, you're complaining it wasn't done in private so nobody will know you are getting called out for being bad.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:49
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Chelb posted:So I guess this wraps back around to people getting mad at a handful of six hour probations? because that's some pretty weak poo poo, op i dont give a poo poo about 6 hour probations i just want somethingawful to be a level of discourse higher than tumblr
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Jan 12, 2017 20:50
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I'm sad my geocities website is gone, cause hoo-boy.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:50
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*A person hands out a grand total of four six hour probations with gifs attached to them* this is ruining the discourse!!!!!!
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Jan 12, 2017 20:50
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FactsAreUseless posted:I would include: Examples being Vilerat, who worked as US diplomatic staff, and Brown Moses, who I'm pretty sure works in intelligence. Speaking of, maybe it's time to take vilerat off the mod list? It's sad, but we're seeing new mods now and new people might get confused about it.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:50
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FactsAreUseless posted:I'm glad there's so much spirited discussion happening around questions of free speech and impartiality, but we just had to hide a thread because Kiwifarms members were using it to doxx and collect personal information on a bunch of our posters. I consider that a way bigger problem than the ongoing debate about D&D moderation. So if this is where we're having modding discussions now, I'm concerned about the fact that you and Lowtax have so wholeheartedly endorsed the site. I think encouraging people on SA to act more like a website that runs a wiki in which they have detailed every single moment of a person's life, down to the shirts he wears, and has entire forums dedicated to doxxing and harassing minorities online is a huge issue. A much bigger one than questions of mod bias, use of slurs on the site, how to handle political discussions in GBS, etc. We need to make it very, very clear that doxxing people, trying to dig up their information, or harassing them off SA isn't okay at all, and people who want to do that aren't welcome here. So what about the Iron rose making GBS threads on LMO? He didnt want to do it on this site so he went somewhere else to do it. Just like how I keep getting people trying to troll me for "whinning" about that sixer you gave me. Maybe there should be a rule that you dont import poo poo off site. Maybe PM a admin or Mod. Oh yeah it was a mod who posted about my whinning in QCS. Doxxxing is serious and I would suggest lawtax and mods run something like the SA Protection program. Start creating a bunch of fake accounts age them have them post here and there. and then fake ban people. Oh course the people being targeted better change their posting style so they cant be identified. I know I sound like I am joking but jesus this is just the internet and you shouldnt have people calling your work harassing you for poo poo. What gets people screwed is that they keep using the same screen name, or people quote mine them for bread crumbs. But after seeing what Kiwifarms did with shmorky....good loving god, I d be making GBS threads myself.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:50
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Nevvy Z posted:Is that really how you see what happened? Negrotown was hosed up because of the regular posters, and not the random shitposters who would just drop in to troll? I admit that a part of it came from a misunderstanding on both parties (me treating the thread as a D&D thread instead of an embodiment of all black D&D posters, them for not realizing thats what I was doing and not coming in to violently disprove everyones beliefs), but it's kind of emblematic of the issue when someone comes in to discuss something, putting heavy emphasis that they agree with each other, and gets barreled because apparently you're only supposed to Listen in that specific D&D thread, with no critiques allowed. Like, it seems like if a thread isn't intended for debating, it shouldn't be in Debate and Discussion? It just seems like such a thread only exists in such a forum for the credibility that forum gives compared to any other forum on the Funny Website.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:50
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Chelb posted:*A person hands out a grand total of four six hour probations with gifs attached to them* tell me about being a twee mexiphobe plz
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Jan 12, 2017 20:51
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VendaGoat posted:Define Hate Speech. Anything you don't like with swear words, probably?
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Jan 12, 2017 20:50
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Tolkien minority posted:tell me about being a twee mexiphobe plz it's pretty cool, i bake a lot and the pan dulce down here is delicious
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Jan 12, 2017 20:51
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Doctor Butts posted:Lady's post obfuscates the whole issue: Yeah I kinda just think maybe this: Which does NOT include blanket statements regarding groups, unless it is especially extreme. Could be a little more clear. That's all. I understand it's difficult to put any hard rules on something like that (in regards to what blanket statements are okay and which ones aren't) but this just seems like it's inviting trouble.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:52
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Grapplejack posted:Examples being Vilerat, who worked as US diplomatic staff, and Brown Moses, who I'm pretty sure works in intelligence. The CIA really needs to take back control of their debate and discussion forum. 
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Jan 12, 2017 20:52
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Lowtax posted:I believe the entire purpose of this thread was to point out that a forum called "Debate and Discuss" should be *more* lenient with free speech, as opposed to more intolerant. I do not believe anything said was to be interpreted as "we are racists and want more racists." It's kind of the exact opposite. i think most people agree with you and for sure thinks that you and your family were unfairly treated by fantastically stupid comments about your parenting. some Let's Play people have auto-banned themselves over that, but i'd think that the vast, vast majority of people on SA believes you were in the right; that the Let's Play people over-reacted & absolutely deserved their bans. the main thing that some of us are railing against, i think, is if KiwiFarms will be made out to be an example of what SA should be, because despite making content, KiwiFarms comes across as weirdo stalkers in just the same way that Something Sensitive does; they're just obsessed by the whole of the internet instead of just SA.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:51
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i think he is talking about the posting of gifs in response to posts as opposed to adding to the discussion not necessarily the use of gifs in probation reasons but i am not tolkien minority so this is conjecture
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Jan 12, 2017 20:51
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Tolkien minority posted:*totally appropriate and cool gif of tv person or celebrity i like doing something so i dont have to actually think or use words to respond* Trouble reading faces and the emotions they are expressing? Invisible Handjob posted:if you are not willing to educate, debate, and explain to people why their opinions are wrong in your view and instead just label them racists and dogpile upon them shouting them down, then just rename this forum the safe space Yeah, but at some point it's the same poeple over and over again doing the same poo poo because they can't be bothered to be educated.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:52
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