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So just as a matter of interest, what's the actual problem and why is it apparently so unsolvable? AFAIK it's been an issue since the Harley days and MV claim to have fixed it with every model year.
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Dec 19, 2016 09:21
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It's an italian vehicle, there always has to be one chronic issue in the model range.
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Dec 19, 2016 10:27
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goddamnedtwisto posted:So just as a matter of interest, what's the actual problem and why is it apparently so unsolvable? AFAIK it's been an issue since the Harley days and MV claim to have fixed it with every model year. They under-spec'd the starter sprag and the starter motor, combined with the bikes being somewhat hard starting due to marginal fueling on start, does a number on the sprag, much like the 749/999 issues. Apparently it was possible early on for the bike to actually run backwards for a rotation because it'd bounce off the compression while starting if you were unlucky with where you were in the compression stroke. It's probably never been actually addressed because they simply don't move enough bikes that do enough miles. Or it's been minorly improved year on year, and they're just staying one step in front of the riders. Pokies experience shows they're probably improving the quality of the assembly, cause my friends definitely went within 3-4K every time. It's a real pity that bike got stolen because it would have been great to trade it in on a Turismo Veloce which would have been ridden for 1.5 years before also being lemon lawed, and the cycle could repeat forever.
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Dec 19, 2016 16:48
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Z3n, the mechanic who fixed it seemed convinced that the problem had to do with how MV wired up electronic controls to the starter motor. I didn't understand the explanation enough to accurately replicate it though.
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Dec 20, 2016 06:35
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I once had a mechanic tell me that if I put a Harley-Davidson battery in my Honda it would spin the crankshaft too fast and damage the engine, so I wouldn't necessarily put too much stock in that
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Dec 20, 2016 07:07
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pokie posted:Z3n, the mechanic who fixed it seemed convinced that the problem had to do with how MV wired up electronic controls to the starter motor. I didn't understand the explanation enough to accurately replicate it though. Most mechanics are loving idiots who master things by repetition.
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Dec 20, 2016 07:33
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Z3n posted:They under-spec'd the starter sprag and the starter motor, combined with the bikes being somewhat hard starting due to marginal fueling on start, does a number on the sprag, much like the 749/999 issues. So it's not a single part that breaks, the thing just shits itself? Wouldn't be surprised if they've just replaced one part a year until eventually, around 2087, the entire engine has been replaced (and then the electronics catch fire). pokie posted:Z3n, the mechanic who fixed it seemed convinced that the problem had to do with how MV wired up electronic controls to the starter motor. I didn't understand the explanation enough to accurately replicate it though. There was a problem with the first-year in-house Aprilia 750 engines where the interlock that cuts off the starter motor when the engine started running didn't work (although some reported it as the solenoid itself latching on, it's possible it was two separate problems) which ended up destroying the starter motor and/or clutch. The interlock was particularly necessary because the starter button is used to select the engine mode once the engine was running.  (although Aprilia did recall and fix all of the bikes and, forum lore excepted, it only affected the first few thousand engines). I wonder if that's what he was thinking of?
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Dec 20, 2016 08:35
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goddamnedtwisto posted:So it's not a single part that breaks, the thing just shits itself? Wouldn't be surprised if they've just replaced one part a year until eventually, around 2087, the entire engine has been replaced (and then the electronics catch fire). Dealer's form states they replaced "sprag assembly" so just one part, I think. Forgive my mangled paraphrasing in what follows. The mechanic was talking about the electronics counting the teeth in the sprag or something like that, and that if the battery is low it fucks up and misapplies it somehow. He also said that the best way to avoid the issue is to keep the battery on a tender. I can't do that on account of not having a garage, and the gf probably wouldn't approve of parking the bike in the living room. Anyway, I figure I will test the tender cord with a multimeter every month or so just in case.
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Dec 20, 2016 08:53
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goddamnedtwisto posted:So it's not a single part that breaks, the thing just shits itself? Wouldn't be surprised if they've just replaced one part a year until eventually, around 2087, the entire engine has been replaced (and then the electronics catch fire). It's always the same part - the starter sprag itself. It uses a one way clutch assembly in the middle of the sprag to drive the crank when the starter engages but freewheel once the crank is spinning faster than the gear. It's a wear item, like any other clutch, but because of a combination of it being underspec'd plus hard starting plus a probably smallish starter that doesn't have the force to really kick the thing over firmly, it does a number on the friction material / sprag surface and eventually the sprag doesn't stay engaged when you hit the starter so it just freewheels when you hit the starter, causing the no-start condition. Sometimes it'll engage with a loud crack, and I'm pretty convinced that in the long run you'd wreck the mating surface on the crank and would need to replace the crank to get the bike to start normally again. The sprag is also apparently buried in the middle of the engine so it's a 6 hour split the cases job to do the replacement. The really dumb part of me thinks that in about 2-3 years when these things are out of warranty I'll be able to pick one up for a song and use a roll starter to run it as a cheap track bike. Mostly I'm just sad I can't commute on a Turismo Veloce, though. I'd have bought the hell out of one of those if I didn't have the s1000xr, and using MVs convenient lemon law loaner program as long as you put about 20k on one in 2 years you can lemon law due to the number of starter sprag replacements to get all your dollars back! As long as you were riding with a buddy, you could also do the rear wheel start trick too, I suppose. And in a brief moment of self awareness, I can kinda see why people think I'm crazy.
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Dec 20, 2016 09:07
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Oh, the mechanic is talking about the cam timing issue but that's just a contributing symptom of the overall problem. If the sprag can't handle the bike being even slightly hard starting, the assembly wasn't spaced highly enough to handle real use. My broad assumption about this problem goes like this: they tuned the bike for EU emissions, and then slapped a bullshit map on it for the US, which causes it to be hard starting. That hard starting problem means their starter assembly, which was designed to match the engine and be no more robust than absolutely needed, is over stressed relative to the design spec for displacement, compression, valve springs, etc. They've slowly fixed the running fueling map over time, but they've never dealt with the very low RPM running where it starts being hard on the starter assembly, because only a handful of folks ride the bikes enough to notice the problem. Listening more to the dumb part of me, in a few years I'm likely to build a retrofit kit that will locate a second starter somewhere where it can drive the rear wheel to bump start it rather than worry about the starter sprag issue. Throw it on the centerstand, engage the secondary starter, bump start, ride away. Why yes, I do find the Turismo Veloce unreasonably appealing, why do you ask?
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Dec 20, 2016 09:20
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Z3n posted:As long as you were riding with a buddy, you could also do the rear wheel start trick too, I suppose. I tried that, but it didn't work. Perhaps I am not doing it right due to noobness. What's the correct procedure here? Thanks for all the detailed explanations, Z3n. So you think battery checking is not important? And, yeah, Veloce is sweet as hell too.
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Dec 20, 2016 09:27
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Z3n posted:They've slowly fixed the running fueling map over time, but they've never dealt with the very low RPM running where it starts being hard on the starter assembly, Can you explain how this works? I don't get how the starter could get damaged by the engine idling or lugging or whatever.
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Dec 20, 2016 09:32
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Z3n posted:Listening more to the dumb part of me, in a few years I'm likely to build a retrofit kit that will locate a second starter somewhere where it can drive the rear wheel to bump start it rather than worry about the starter sprag issue. Throw it on the centerstand, engage the secondary starter, bump start, ride away. I don't remember if it was you in a different thread that was drooling over inertia starters in old aero engines, but that's basically what this is so please be dumb and do it because it will sound loving awesome 
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Dec 20, 2016 11:47
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pokie posted:I tried that, but it didn't work. Perhaps I am not doing it right due to noobness. What's the correct procedure here? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zaxhjh_BKgA If you're trying to push start a bike with a slipper clutch, you have to get going quite fast to get it to start as you lose a lot of force through the slipper clutch doing its thing. I don't think the problem is the battery but it's an easy thing a dealership can blame it on so they tend to do so. A stronger battery definitely reduces starting time but that's ultimately a band-aid for a system that's not up to the spec no matter what. Sagebrush posted:Can you explain how this works? I don't get how the starter could get damaged by the engine idling or lugging or whatever. It's not when it's actually running, it's when it's turning over at whatever speed the starter can turn it at, it doesn't tend to want to fire. Most bikes fire in 1-2 rotations of the engine, the MV would tend to take 4-5. If the clutch is wearing with each second it's engaged, and it takes 3x the time to start, well, you're burning out the sprag in 350 starts instead of 1050. At 1050 starts, the first sprag would have gone at about 16k, or maybe even longer because the clutch wears more the longer you're running it. The older Aprilia Mille engine is another good example of doing this thing sorta wrong but it being ok-ish because the sprag usually makes it about 20-30k. Same with Ducati 999/749s. Renaissance Robot posted:I don't remember if it was you in a different thread that was drooling over inertia starters in old aero engines, but that's basically what this is so please be dumb and do it because it will sound loving awesome Haha I'd probably take the scrub way out and install a small secondary gear on the swingarm driven by an electric motor to drive the chain. An inertia starter would probably be too big to install but then again, that'd be loving hilarious to pull start my Italian motorcycle.
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Dec 20, 2016 17:02
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Z3n posted:And in a brief moment of self awareness, I can kinda see why people think I'm crazy. Crazy would be drilling a hole in the crank case, fitting a bearing in the hole, welding an extension to the crank that runs through the bearing, with a nut on the end, sealing it all up so it holds oil, and starting it with an 18v Makita. The turismo veloce is gorgeous.
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Dec 20, 2016 17:06
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Z3n posted:Haha I'd probably take the scrub way out and install a small secondary gear on the swingarm driven by an electric motor to drive the chain. An inertia starter would probably be too big to install but then again, that'd be loving hilarious to pull start my Italian motorcycle. No I mean like, I thought you meant have a small electric motor steadily spin up the rear wheel to build inertia in it and then let the clutch out to bump start the engine. I'm not sure how well this would work, if at all, given you wouldn't have the weight of the bike rolling along to keep the chain moving against the force of compression (I'm not imagining the secondary starter directly contributing any force at all), but hey at least it wouldn't be expensive to e/ NB I have no idea how actual inertia starters work Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 18:16
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Thanks for the link, Z3n.Z3n posted:The sprag is also apparently buried in the middle of the engine so it's a 6 hour split the cases job to do the replacement. The quote they gave me was 3.5 hours.
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Dec 20, 2016 19:02
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Renaissance Robot posted:No I mean like, I thought you meant have a small electric motor steadily spin up the rear wheel to build inertia in it and then let the clutch out to bump start the engine. That's how they start quite a lot of race bikes at club level, although the electric motor is actually the back wheel of the team Transit sitting on two rollers with the bike's rear wheel at the other end of them.
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Dec 20, 2016 21:30
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pokie posted:Thanks for the link, Z3n. Oh I could totally be wrong there, that was based off the last time it was done the dealership mechanic saying it was buried in the middle of the cases. Maybe you can get it out somehow without splitting. Never had to do it myself. Renaissance Robot posted:No I mean like, I thought you meant have a small electric motor steadily spin up the rear wheel to build inertia in it and then let the clutch out to bump start the engine. Yeah that'd be the plan - you'd use the inertia from the rear wheel spinning to bump over the engine, it doesn't take much. Assuming the shared mass of the chain and wheel assembly is around 20 pounds and you've got it spinning, it should be fine to get it started. Only downside is, uhh, don't stall the thing. Inertia starter demo here - see 2:35 for the start of the dude cranking it up. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kd_xVtcG5Dc Finger Prince posted:Crazy would be drilling a hole in the crank case, fitting a bearing in the hole, welding an extension to the crank that runs through the bearing, with a nut on the end, sealing it all up so it holds oil, and starting it with an 18v Makita. The motogp starter option would definitely be the way to go for a track bike. I think you could probably do it easier off the clutch or drive sprocket, though!
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Dec 20, 2016 22:03
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Finger Prince posted:Crazy would be drilling a hole in the crank case, fitting a bearing in the hole, welding an extension to the crank that runs through the bearing, with a nut on the end, sealing it all up so it holds oil, and starting it with an 18v Makita. I dunno how well it would work on a 1000cc 4t.
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Dec 20, 2016 22:41
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Z3n posted:Only downside is, uhh, don't stall the thing. A third motor capable of popping the centre stand. Weight concerns? What weight concerns!?  e/ at that point it'd probably be easier to swap the stand with some kind of worm gear thing that just jacks the bike up directly instead of loving about with pivots Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 23:03
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Renaissance Robot posted:A third motor capable of popping the centre stand. Weight concerns? What weight concerns!? Clearly the only option is to install hydraulic jacks on the bottom like a race car.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:45
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Finger Prince posted:
I know beauty is subjective and all but are we looking at the same bike? http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/MV-Agusta-Turismo-Veloce-800-action-4.jpg I feel like that looks like a really worked over gsf-650
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Dec 21, 2016 02:15
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:I know beauty is subjective and all but are we looking at the same bike? That's a nerdy looking bike
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Dec 21, 2016 02:32
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Renaissance Robot posted:I don't remember if it was you in a different thread that was drooling over inertia starters in old aero engines, but that's basically what this is so please be dumb and do it because it will sound loving awesome That was me. I currently have a maybe 60% complete design of a hand-cranked four-stage planetary-geared flywheel inertia starter that fits into the space of the starter motor on a Honda 350 
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Dec 21, 2016 03:33
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Sagebrush posted:That was me. I currently have a maybe 60% complete design of a hand-cranked four-stage planetary-geared flywheel inertia starter that fits into the space of the starter motor on a Honda 350 
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Dec 21, 2016 03:58
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:I know beauty is subjective and all but are we looking at the same bike? That shot isn't the best angle  And it looks (and feels) pretty special when you're astride. It might be a cliché but it really does look better in person than in photos.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:09
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Looks like a fun standard. Brap brap.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:13
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:I know beauty is subjective and all but are we looking at the same bike? That's basically the worst possible angle. The narrow, sort of skeletal subframe has to be seen in person, and the upper fairing isn't as bulbous and weighty as it looks in that picture.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:57
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That to an F3 looks like a cayenne to a 911. So vertically stretched and godawful.
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Dec 21, 2016 05:16
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIN-7MM5eI4&t=347s
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Dec 21, 2016 06:12
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I really loving hate failarmy.Sagebrush posted:That was me. I currently have a maybe 60% complete design of a hand-cranked four-stage planetary-geared flywheel inertia starter that fits into the space of the starter motor on a Honda 350 GIMME 
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Dec 21, 2016 07:46
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Renaissance Robot posted:I really loving hate failarmy. Why do you hate fun?
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Jan 9, 2017 00:38
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atleast they offer to pay for original content instead of just jacking it outright
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Jan 10, 2017 19:59
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I love my 690 to death but it may be the death of me. The EFI is poo poo so god help you if you live in a climate that changes temps drastically week to week or day to day. Do the idle reset procedure when it's cold? Random stalls if you get warm weather. Idle reset when warm? You are hosed if a cold front comes in. Since it stalls just as you are accelerating from a stop, and not predictably, one of two things happens: BEST case- You stall in an intersection and look like an idiot holding everyone else up. This happens like twice on a 30 minute ride. WORST case- You stall pulling out onto a busy street, in front of two lanes of oncoming traffic. This is TERRIFYING, and has happened THREE TIMES IN THE PAST TWO DAYS gently caress Like, it's the best goddamned bike and I don't want to get rid of it but I also want to set it on fire.
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Jan 12, 2017 21:49
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Keeps the revs up and the clutch in at every light, dump the clutch and wheelie away every time.
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Jan 12, 2017 21:51
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Holy poo poo; that sounds horrible. I like the idea of having a 690, and I've rid a 690 Enduro before which was fun and hilarious, but drat. That is some Achilles-heel-rear end poo poo.
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Jan 12, 2017 21:52
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MomJeans420 posted:Keeps the revs up and the clutch in at every light, dump the clutch and wheelie away every time. Reving before or during doesnt change it. It's completely random and like the bike just gets confused and stops. I'm completely stock, and have the proper inserts in my WING's exhaust. Trust me, it's not me stalling the bike, its the EFI stalling the bike. This isn't an uncommon issue. Don't get me wrong, the bike is just about as awesome as it can get, and is rock solid everywhere else. But this is totally unacceptable. Supposedly retuning it with a certain map fixes it, but then I gotta do the airbox and and lose the nice "slow" and "bad gas" maps, along with mpg.
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Jan 12, 2017 21:59
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Counterpoint: you won't loving die in a collision?
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Jan 12, 2017 22:18
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Counter-Counterpoint: I'm pretty sure being hit from the side by an SUV going 50mph will do more than ruin my day.
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Jan 12, 2017 23:03
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