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ReidRansom posted:Show me where I said Egyptians were white people. Way to dodge the question
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Jan 13, 2017 18:51
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ReidRansom posted:And lauding people for being racially subversive and casting POC just for grins isn't going to erase that. I skipped over this post earlier that made a good point But that wasn't what you were asking or even insinuating. You are being disingenuous.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:51
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I mean, for gently caress's sake I think everyone is familiar with exactly how far white people will go to say that some other person is not white. Believe me when I say, I am not not claiming they were white.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:52
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Also so long as we are on the topic of Egypt I'd just like to take a small moment and remind everyone that Passover is kind of a hosed up holiday https://vimeo.com/108679857 Glad i'm the 2nd eldest in my family.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:53
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ReidRansom posted:I mean, for gently caress's sake I think everyone is familiar with exactly how far white people will go to say that some other person is not white. Believe me when I say, I am not not claiming they were white. No, you're claiming that because Hamiltonizing can't erase the history of racial injustice, whitewashing can't make it worse.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:54
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ReidRansom posted:I mean, for gently caress's sake I think everyone is familiar with exactly how far white people will go to say that some other person is not white. Believe me when I say, I am not not claiming they were white. Here is a 12th Dynasty Egyptian statue of Wah http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/20.3.210/ or this 12th Dynasty statue of a guardian http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/14.3.17/ Here is a 4th Dynasty statue http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/62.200/ Egyptians were as black as Eddie Murphy or Magic or even me, who is pretty lightskinned.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:57
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Fluffdaddy posted:Western culture loves to point at the Greeks as the start of a lot of things, While whitewashing the hell out of them (and other Mediterranean folk) quote:but most of their knowledge was stolen from the ancient cultures that surrounded them, especially Egypt Ehhhh. I mean yeah their math was behind until they conquered surrounding groups and "absorbed their scholarship" but they did a pretty good job of running with it. It's dumb that they get credit for things the Babylonians, Sumerians, Egyptians, etc. did. Don't get me started on the Islamic Golden Age and how white folk jacked credit for that poo poo too  Edit: oh god math derail, I'm sorry
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Jan 13, 2017 18:58
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Googling "Egyptian ethnography" takes me to a lovely document written in 1846 by some sort of insane, possibly murderous phrenologist who spent an absurd amount of time taking the calipers to every skull he could get his hands on, and seems very keen to say that the super civilized Egyptians were definitely not black. Why is that the main result?
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Jan 13, 2017 18:58
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ReidRansom posted:That's a pretty hard cop-out. This is pretty ironic considering we got the Exodus movie and Gods of Egypt featuring white dudes playing Egyptian roles. blackguy32 fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 18:59
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Bill Simmons in The Ringer posted:5. On my last podcast, a fired-up Mike Lombardi decided to compare every remaining NFL playoff team to a character from The Wire. I won’t spoil all of them, but there were two mortal locks on that list — the Patriots as Avon, and the Packers as Omar. Because Rodgers is Omar. He’s a one-man gang. You’re always afraid of him, you can’t ever count him out and you never know when he’s coming. And those three Hail Marys (THREE!!!!) were football’s equivalent of (spoilers edited out). 
OJ MIST 2 THE DICK fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 19:00
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OwlFancier posted:Googling "Egyptian ethnography" takes me to a lovely document written in 1846 by some sort of insane, possibly murderous phrenologist who spent an absurd amount of time taking the calipers to every skull he could get his hands on, and seems very keen to say that the super civilized Egyptians were definitely not black. Because 90% of 'Egyptology' and other associated 'sciences' are Victorian Era white supremacy at its finest.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:01
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Woah don't go dumping wire spoilers dang Bill Simmons is a lovely writer and an idiot though
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Jan 13, 2017 19:02
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OwlFancier posted:Googling "Egyptian ethnography" takes me to a lovely document written in 1846 by some sort of insane, possibly murderous phrenologist who spent an absurd amount of time taking the calipers to every skull he could get his hands on, and seems very keen to say that the super civilized Egyptians were definitely not black. The things that archeologist and other scientific minds of Victorian England and the other European empires did to so many ancient sites around the world is pretty loving horrendous, so it doesn't surprise me a phrenologist had to get his two cents in too.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:02
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AggressivelyStupid posted:Woah don't go dumping wire spoilers dang Sorry tagging is a bitch on the mobile so just gonna delete it.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:03
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Fluffdaddy posted:The things that archeologist and other scientific minds of Victorian England and the other European empires did to so many ancient sites around the world is pretty loving horrendous, so it doesn't surprise me a phrenologist had to get his two cents in too. Well he's listed as an MD but, well, the whole thing is just him looking at hundreds of skulls and measuring them all and using that to make sweeping inferences about Egyptian history... "I have in my possession, seventy-nine crania of Negroes born in Africa, for which I am indebted to Doctors Goheen and McDowell, lately attached to the medical department of the Colony at Liberia, in Western Africa; And especially to Don Jose Rodriguez Cisneros, M.D., of Havana, in the island of Cuba." Why the gently caress do your friends have that many loving skulls lying around and why did you ask them to send them all to you you loving freak?!
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Jan 13, 2017 19:09
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ReidRansom posted:Why is it ok to cast a black actor in a white role but not a white actor in a black role Because it's a matter of framing and respect. Hamilton is a full ensemble and show framed from a different perspective than we'd usually get of American history. Michael Jackson being cast white just because is not. There's no intended impact there, and that's being generous, because if there is an intended impact, it's hugely disrespectful in that case. You're being disingenuous by suggesting that Michael Jackson's race doesn't matter and that Hamilton could have been cast at random and had the same impact. Context matters, dude
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Jan 13, 2017 19:18
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OwlFancier posted:Googling "Egyptian ethnography" takes me to a lovely document written in 1846 by some sort of insane, possibly murderous phrenologist who spent an absurd amount of time taking the calipers to every skull he could get his hands on, and seems very keen to say that the super civilized Egyptians were definitely not black. If it's the article I'm thinking of, I'd bet it's because someone cited from it for the wikipedia article on the ancient Egyptian race debate.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:24
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OwlFancier posted:That's still the best story. I'm sure someone out there could adapt and package the story of Mansa Musa into a funny and historically interesting tale to expand awareness of him beyond "people who played Civ 4". I'd watch it.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:27
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ReidRansom posted:That's a pretty hard cop-out. Don't use my posts to support your lazy racist view of the world. Odem's point and mine was that color blind casting isn't enough. You have to also create role specifically for characters of color that engage with their specific lives, experience, and culture. But as it stands, colorblind casting is a good and necessary thing to push against the cultural tendency to cast everything as white. And people like you who push the "butbutbut realism" line need to have a come to Jesus moment about how bias impacts historical records. You can't help being fed a white-washed image of history, but you are responsible for sticking to it in defiance of logic and clear evidence.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:32
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420 Gank Mid posted:
Using paintings as an argument is not great idea because the ancient egyptians didn't care a lot about skin color (skin color being important is a very modern idea) and the colors they used in their paintings were largely symbolic I'm not suggesting in any way that the egyptians were white though.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:37
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Alhazred posted:Using paintings as an argument is not great idea because the ancient egyptians didn't care a lot about skin color (skin color being important is a very modern idea) and the colors they used in their paintings were largely symbolic I'm not suggesting in any way that the egyptians were white though. Ah gee isnt it great you pulled a reason to ignore the most prolific primary sources we have right out of your rear end.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:41
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Alhazred posted:Using paintings as an argument is not great idea because the ancient egyptians didn't care a lot about skin color (skin color being important is a very modern idea) and the colors they used in their paintings were largely symbolic I'm not suggesting in any way that the egyptians were white though. They literally cared so little about skin colors that they purposefully didnt make the southern Africans they were fighting darker than them to differentiate them. They also only made every piece of art black or brown for reasons. Edit: Race being important is a fairly modern idea, but art is reflective of the people creating it, especially when it is depicting their history. They didn't come up with brown and black skin out of the ether.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:45
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I was gonna say that's Egyptians fighting Nubians, with Ramses being in the chariot.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:47
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OwlFancier posted:I was gonna say that's Egyptians fighting Nubians, with Ramses being in the chariot. You would be correct! Ramses II to be specific but he's the only Ramses anyone ever really talks about.    Of all the tombs in Egypt, that of Nefertari in the Valley of Queens boasts perhaps the most stunningly well preserved color art of the ancient world and has depictions of her contemporary Egyptians with their skin colored a wide variety of very natural (and in the still common in the region today) skin tones. But apparently according the world reknown Egyptologist Alhazred they were actually surreal and/or psychedelic compared to the 'real' Egyptian skin tone.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:54
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If you think that paranoid weirdos who think aliens built the pyramids are white washing history you are as mentally unsound as them.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:02
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I guess I'm a white dude that fell on his head as a baby or something because I always assumed ancient Egyptians were black because Egypt was a part of Africa?  And gently caress anyone that thinks the pyramids were built by aliens. The fact that they were built by humans thousands of years ago is what makes them badass; they were the tallest man made structures for millenia.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:03
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Speaking of art and black people, apparently some lawmakers felt their safe space was being violated by an offensive painting and took it down in protest.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/01/10/house-battle-over-controversial-student-painting-spirals-out-of-control/ Article on what happened, but the short version is this painting by David Pulpus was a winner in a national art competition that selects student art to hang in the capitol. It hung for a few months without issue but then conservative news reported on it's existence and the resulting law enforcement  and Republican lawmakers started taking it down in protest.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:03
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I think I remember reading that the lighter coloured pigments deteriorated over time so the whole thing sort of went dark and less colourful than it probably was when it was new. I think oil paintings do the same thing as well as their varnishing having odd effects as it ages too, which is part of why a lot of them look all lovely and dark, not just a fondness for tenebrism. It's still gorgeous either way but I know that supposedly Greece loving loved its psychadelic paint jobs on everything they could take a brush to as well, it's just that none of it survives because fixing pigments really well is a quite new invention. Either way though the artists are obviously making choices in their use of colour even if it's not perfectly preserved. Case in point: Isis(?) and Horus in that top image. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 20:04
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flashman posted:If you think that paranoid weirdos who think aliens built the pyramids are white washing history you are as mentally unsound as them. Yeah and those loons who talk about 'shadowy cabals who control the world's banks, drink our blood, and poison our wells' dont have an anti semetic bone in their body, no siree they're just talking about our reptillian overlords.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:07
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mdemone posted:No, you're claiming that because Hamiltonizing can't erase the history of racial injustice, whitewashing can't make it worse. Nah I'm saying that both are bad and unproductive. blackguy32 posted:This is pretty ironic considering we got the Exodus movie and Gods of Egypt featuring white dudes playing Egyptian roles. And weren't those mocked for that?
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Jan 13, 2017 20:09
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ReidRansom posted:Nah I'm saying that both are bad and unproductive. What is bad and unproductive about Hamilton? White person playing Michael Jackson and the POC playing the founding fathers are different. You know they are different, but instead of reflecting on that difference, you are doubling down. I think it is almost time for you to leave.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:10
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I think the Michael Jackson casting backlash is really interesting and is a pretty complex issue. As a Mexican, it made me think of La Bamba and Lou Diamond Phillips. Obviously, this was a different era and a different climate, but I think the way it was done helped considerably in its acceptance, combined with the fact that Lou killed it in his role. Does Lou's ability to pass for Mexican have some impact on the way this was viewed? Probably, and I imagine that if a vanilla white dude was cast as Ritchie it would probably bother me somewhat. As I think about that, it troubles me a little as neither Lou nor some generic white dude would have had the representative experiences, so why am I bothered by one and not the other? The power dynamic certainly influences my opinion on this, but even knowing that I struggle with my feelings on it. I'm curious to how the posters in this thread would feel about a hypothetical in which a Mexican (or some other minority) was cast as Michael Jackson? Would how the portrayal was actually done impact your take on the casting?
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Jan 13, 2017 20:10
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flashman posted:If you think that paranoid weirdos who think aliens built the pyramids are white washing history you are as mentally unsound as them. They may not be doing it intentionally but uh yeah dude by attributing impressive non-white archaeological structures to aliens they kind of are. Even if their intentions are just dumb and/or uneducated it turns out there's some pretty racist implications!
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Jan 13, 2017 20:12
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flashman posted:If you think that paranoid weirdos who think aliens built the pyramids are white washing history you are as mentally unsound as them. When the starting point is an argument from incredulity and there's theories about wide swaths of monumental architecture that just so happens to be made by people of color? That's not subtle at all, man. Saying there's no way non-white people could've done that is whitewashing history because it's denying the history of everyone who isn't white, and it's based on an ill-informed idea of unadvanced ancients that's practically a dog trombone.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:12
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mike- posted:I think the Michael Jackson casting backlash is really interesting and is a pretty complex issue. As a Mexican, it made me think of La Bamba and Lou Diamond Phillips. Obviously, this was a different era and a different climate, but I think the way it was done helped considerably in its acceptance, combined with the fact that Lou killed it in his role. Does Lou's ability to pass for Mexican have some impact on the way this was viewed? Probably, and I imagine that if a vanilla white dude was cast as Ritchie it would probably bother me somewhat. As I think about that, it troubles me a little as neither Lou nor some generic white dude would have had the representative experiences, so why am I bothered by one and not the other? The power dynamic certainly influences my opinion on this, but even knowing that I struggle with my feelings on it. Lou Diamond Phillips is Filipino, with some other races mixed in, including Spanish heritage. It is not similar at all.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:12
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Casting black people to play white historical figures is a great idea if only because of the apparent existential crisis it gives some people.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:13
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Let's get a Jesus Christ Superstar remake with a black actor!
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Jan 13, 2017 20:14
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mike- posted:I think the Michael Jackson casting backlash is really interesting and is a pretty complex issue. As a Mexican, it made me think of La Bamba and Lou Diamond Phillips. Obviously, this was a different era and a different climate, but I think the way it was done helped considerably in its acceptance, combined with the fact that Lou killed it in his role. Does Lou's ability to pass for Mexican have some impact on the way this was viewed? Probably, and I imagine that if a vanilla white dude was cast as Ritchie it would probably bother me somewhat. As I think about that, it troubles me a little as neither Lou nor some generic white dude would have had the representative experiences, so why am I bothered by one and not the other? The power dynamic certainly influences my opinion on this, but even knowing that I struggle with my feelings on it. personally i wouldnt car ebecause at least i realize there is a lot of overlap between the experiences of minorities, however if someone that had non-mexican experiences and was black felt that it was unfair i wouldnt be surprised nor push back against their complaints in the end a lot of it is the underlying meaning and there is a lot of similarities(although also many differences) in how people of color get treated by hollywood and other mass media, so it doesnt jump out as hosed up like just a random white dude being in the role if the person is hispanic, middle eastern, etc. however, it still is very lazy because there is a wealth of competent and qualified actors/actresses that get passed over and its no excuse other than laziness(unless its actually overt racism)
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Jan 13, 2017 20:15
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Or Passion
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Jan 13, 2017 20:17
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Panfilo posted:I guess I'm a white dude that fell on his head as a baby or something because I always assumed ancient Egyptians were black because Egypt was a part of Africa? I certainly wouldn't claim ancient Egyptians were white, because lol they were not - but, for instance, would you consider modern Egyptians to be black? 'Geographically part of Africa' and 'black people' are not automatically the same thing, and that photo up thread shows (light brown) Egyptians fighting (dark brown) Nubians, which would seem to imply the Egyptians saw a difference. Likewise, there are paintings of them fighting/conquering pale skinned guys from the Mediterranean which would imply the Egyptians saw a difference between themselves and white people, too. Note, by the way, that there were Nubian emperors of Egypt - these guys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Dynasty_of_Egypt - and no one sane would dispute that those guys were what we could call black. Note also that Nubia as a civilisation in its own right doesn't get nearly the credit it should, because racism.
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