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JuffoWup posted:Again, I'm missing how it is better. You can pretty much leave T9 out of it, because most battles are played in T5 through T7; T7 will most of the time see the T5-T7 range and T6-T8 range, seldomly T7-T9. That's why T7 is currently the sweet spot for match making, along with T4 (because preferential match making) and I guess T10. That's also why T5 is currently horrible to play, and T6 to a lesser extent.
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Jan 12, 2017 23:31
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Guess who just added Neptune's Inferno, Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors and Storm over Leyte to his shelf?
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Jan 12, 2017 23:34
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Iceshade posted:You can pretty much leave T9 out of it, because most battles are played in T5 through T7; T7 will most of the time see the T5-T7 range and T6-T8 range, seldomly T7-T9. That's why T7 is currently the sweet spot for match making, along with T4 (because preferential match making) and I guess T10. Then I've been having a different experience since I don't enjoy the high tier play anyway. I often see t9s in my t7 ships while I see t7 and sometimes 8s in my tier 6s. And then there is the already talked about t10s taking over t8 ships. I know the argument and it is generally true. I'm just comparing the fact the argument started with. It has the same guns as the scharn, so obivously the scharn is better because of matchmaking. Except my argument is that it isn't better because the scharn has the chance to see t9s including fletchers and yugumos while not having the sonar to help spot the walls. Meanwhile, the spee can only max out at t8 where the gun still works fine and also has the sonar to help it against torpedos and other things used at that tier.
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Jan 12, 2017 23:56
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I don't know what else we can say about the matchmaking. You will always have to punch up with both ships but the Scharn is better at it and will more often than not get favourable matches. The Graf has punch for sure but its on so much more of a fragile platform and you need to take a fairly bad angle to get all your firepower on target and you can be deleted as fast as any cruiser. The Graf is a fun ship, its just not as terrifying as a Scharn in their respective environments. Kore_Fero fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 00:16
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JuffoWup posted:Except my argument is that it isn't better because the scharn has the chance to see t9s including fletchers and yugumos while not having the sonar to help spot the walls. Meanwhile, the spee can only max out at t8 where the gun still works fine and also has the sonar to help it against torpedos and other things used at that tier. What good is a self-defense sonar on a ship with an 830 turning circle radius and 14.7 rudder shift time? Sure, you'll be able to see the torps coming from slightly farther, but when you turn that sluggish, you'll be eating some fish for dinner, sonar or not. You can justify the need for it on the Graf Spee, a more sluggish cruiser with still okay maneuverability, but it's a tough sell on a Scharnhorst. I have to agree with the idea that the Scharnhorst is just a better ship at its tiers than the Graf is. Graf guns are accurate but have trouble with even very slightly angled T5 battleship armor sometimes, and you can only bring three guns to bear bow-on. Sure, if you get to prey on Cruisers and Destroyers it becomes the commerce raider, but if it gets put up against Amagis and North Carolinas it gets absolutely eaten for lunch. Meanwhile the Scharnhorst is faster with better armor while still being a slim ship, so it can get out of trouble quickly, it can bring six guns to bear instead of just three, and the only thing it's missing is the sonar. Being put up in a T9 match in a Scharnhorst isn't as bad as it is being put in a T8 in a Graf.
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Jan 13, 2017 00:43
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OSad posted:What good is a self-defense sonar on a ship with an 830 turning circle radius and 14.7 rudder shift time? Sure, you'll be able to see the torps coming from slightly farther, but when you turn that sluggish, you'll be eating some fish for dinner, sonar or not. You can justify the need for it on the Graf Spee, a more sluggish cruiser with still okay maneuverability, but it's a tough sell on a Scharnhorst. Wait, are you telling me the graf has problems with angled t5 battleship armor and the scharn doesn't? If you are going that route, let me know how well you do in a scharn when you are facing down a 420mm equipped fredrich that is angled or bow on. It isn't going to end well for the scharn either. Or a bow on izumo. But since it is never 1v1 fights anyway, make sure in your scharn you aren't getting stalked by a fletcher on your side while at it. Same goes with the graf, but then again, I always hug islands in a cruiser anyway because their rudder shift works well on hugging. As for the turning circle, I never looked, but has been fine for me. As for the rudder shift, that is what the steering gears mod 2 is for.
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Jan 13, 2017 01:22
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JuffoWup posted:Wait, are you telling me the graf has problems with angled t5 battleship armor and the scharn doesn't? If you are going that route, let me know how well you do in a scharn when you are facing down a 420mm equipped fredrich that is angled or bow on. It isn't going to end well for the scharn either. Or a bow on izumo. But since it is never 1v1 fights anyway, make sure in your scharn you aren't getting stalked by a fletcher on your side while at it. Same goes with the graf, but then again, I always hug islands in a cruiser anyway because their rudder shift works well on hugging. Scharnhorst vs angled BBs is all about HE. You can get 9 guns on target spamming HE, usually while the other guy is bouncing shells off your belt. In a Spee, you've only got 6 guns and you need to show much more of your much weaker belt armor in order to get them all on target. Flame feels pretty spot-on here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q80KkeBP6Ck
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Jan 13, 2017 01:27
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Said 'gently caress it' to re-grinding the Hatsuharu all over again and free XP'd the rest of the way to the Poi bote. The fact that this nominal gunboat can stealth fire and gets a torpedo reload booster is some bullshit, I tell you what.
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Jan 13, 2017 01:34
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JuffoWup posted:Wait, are you telling me the graf has problems with angled t5 battleship armor and the scharn doesn't? If you are going that route, let me know how well you do in a scharn when you are facing down a 420mm equipped fredrich that is angled or bow on. It isn't going to end well for the scharn either. Or a bow on izumo. But since it is never 1v1 fights anyway, make sure in your scharn you aren't getting stalked by a fletcher on your side while at it. Same goes with the graf, but then again, I always hug islands in a cruiser anyway because their rudder shift works well on hugging. The idea behind the six guns versus only three bow on is that you put out double the HE firepower on angled targets. With the very respectable 20% fire change on the 283's, the Scharn can more reliably put damage on higher tiered targets compared to the Graf. The difference bow-on being that the Graf can still eat an immense amount of damage up front from even tier 5's while the Scharn is significantly better off with its armor. Yes, the Scharnhorst will eat garbage if it's being stalked by DD's. So will the Graf and even more so since it can't outrun them and its rate of fire is laughable for a cruiser. Yes, it can dodge torps somewhat more reliably and can take them quite beautifully with the 22% torpedo belt, but you can't have sonar up forever and you can't outrun destroyers either. The Scharnhorst at least gives it a good go at it when it gets going to 30 knots.
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Jan 13, 2017 01:41
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so I had to check. 830m radius and 14.5 rudder shift? That is the scharnhorst. Not the Graf Spee which enjoys a 680m radius and I don't know rudder shift because I have the rudder shift mod on it. Both ships with rudder mod 2 on: scharn: 11.6 graf: 8.2 Anyway, I'm just trying to say that t6 isn't a complete poo poo hole everyone makes it out to. Both can see tier 5s while 7s can see 9s and the 6s stops at 8.
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Jan 13, 2017 02:38
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Just had an allied Kiev drop torps less than 2km from me as I fought an enemy NC, directly at my broadside. His username was, of course, bracketed by x's. That's it for me tonight.
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Jan 13, 2017 02:46
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Got detonated in my G-wagon by an enemy carrier's torps. What a fun and engaging mechanic detonations are.
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Jan 13, 2017 02:50
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well, the graf spee cost me zero dollars, and the missions to get it were zero effort, therefore i think its the best.
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Jan 13, 2017 03:45
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Please mount Juliet Charlie in every battle. I know all of you have 500+ of them from supercontainers.
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Jan 13, 2017 03:50
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Initial impression of playing the Graf Spee: eh.
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Jan 13, 2017 04:00
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Sperglord Actual posted:Guess who just added Neptune's Inferno, Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors and Storm over Leyte to his shelf? Good choice, I have the first two and thoroughly enjoyed them. Sperglord Actual posted:Said 'gently caress it' to re-grinding the Hatsuharu all over again and free XP'd the rest of the way to the Poi bote. The turret traverse is pretty painful, though. I guess it has to have a weakness. Heartcatch posted:Please mount Juliet Charlie in every battle. I'm saving them all for the 500+ ranked battles that I will surely play. 
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Jan 13, 2017 04:09
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Heartcatch posted:Please mount Juliet Charlie in every battle. I wish I did. I'm actually starting to get low on them. I'm up to my rear end in leak flags though.
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Jan 13, 2017 04:18
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Sperglord Actual posted:Initial impression of playing the Graf Spee: eh. It feels like the speed is the only think keeping it from being a great boat, to me. I did a "test" where I bum-rushed an Arizona and Kongo, torping both and only taking 1/3 health face-tanking their shots. Sixteen inchers will poo poo all over it but at least it doesn't seem like fourteen inch guns can citadel you bow-on.
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Jan 13, 2017 05:00
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The Graf Spee seems like an okay boat so far, except I keep forgetting that it isn't a BB. Those rear mounted torps are pretty funny, you can surprise the enemy by launching them as you slip behind cover. In a related matter, has the TK penalty system been changed recently? I sank a friendly DD with a torp (2k damage) and got turned pink for 5 games. Is that an automatic thing for just team killing? Seems a bit harsh, I fired into a giant mass of charging BBs that the near-dead DD decided to try yoloing. In a further related matter, in the very next game I managed to hit another ally with my torps while trying to save him from a charging CL. I wasn't expecting him to start reversing. He was at about 3k hp when the torp hit, but according to the result screen I did almost 30k damage to allies. I'm assuming the system counts the full damage caused by the torp as well as the damage that reflected on me? I take full responsibility for loving up my torp launches, I just think it's a bit unfair to claim I did 30k damage to allies when the actual hit was for about 3k. Finally, I've decided to take a bit of a break from torp equipped boats.
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Jan 13, 2017 08:15
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Graf Spee's guns are surprisingly accurate for their caliber, but there isn't much else I want to say about the ship. Two games on Ocean in a row this afternoon on the other hand. 
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Jan 13, 2017 10:30
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I have seen numerous occasions of the gun dispersal on the Graf Spee not making the three shots criss-cross or split farther apart, but actually converge together almost into one, beautiful white AP ball of death, and it makes me misty every time it happens.
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Jan 13, 2017 12:20
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Sperglord Actual posted:Guess who just added Neptune's Inferno, Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors and Storm over Leyte to his shelf? I just finished Neptune's Inferno, starting on Last Stand this weekend. Inferno was absolutely fantastic. The description of the TF67 night action is 
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Jan 13, 2017 14:50
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Decorus posted:
It was actually changed a while ago, and there are two systems in play at the moment. The first is pink status, which is automatically awarded if you sink an allied ship, regardless of how much damage you actually dealt. The other is damage reflection, which only kicks in once you've accumulated a certain amount of team damage (not sure what the break point is). Incidentally, you do not have to be pink to have damage reflection affecting you, as I've seen non-pink ships explode via that. As you might guess, pink status means basically nothing at the moment, and why WG doesn't just combine the two is a really good question.
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Jan 13, 2017 17:28
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Vorkosigan posted:I just finished Neptune's Inferno, starting on Last Stand this weekend. Inferno was absolutely fantastic. The description of the TF67 night action is It was funny reading that after reading Last Stand, as Last Stand makes a big point about how competent and well trained the US Navy is, but in Inferno it was like a random team from WoWS was put in charge. I got his newest book, Fleet at Flood Tide for Christmas, but haven't had time to open it up yet. I got my Graf Spee last night and its pretty ok. I mean, its the same 11" guns I know and love from the Scharn/Koing, but it can swing them around pretty well, its decently manuverable and having repair is super nice. Also it has surprisingly vicious torpedoes and people seem to neglect, even other GS captains.
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Jan 13, 2017 17:30
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CitizenKain posted:I got my Graf Spee last night and its pretty ok. I mean, its the same 11" guns I know and love from the Scharn/Koing, but it can swing them around pretty well, its decently manuverable and having repair is super nice. Also it has surprisingly vicious torpedoes and people seem to neglect, even other GS captains. Graf Spee and Shiny Horse have different 11" guns, and Konig has 12" guns. Historically the guns on Shiny Horse were an evolution of the ones on Graf Spee, in game they have mostly the same stats, but Graf Spee has cruiser accuracy, cruiser range, 20ms faster shells, lighter shells, and for some strange reason more AP damage. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 17:36
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CitizenKain posted:It was funny reading that after reading Last Stand, as Last Stand makes a big point about how competent and well trained the US Navy is, but in Inferno it was like a random team from WoWS was put in charge. I got his newest book, Fleet at Flood Tide for Christmas, but haven't had time to open it up yet. Guadalcanal is where they bought that competence in blood and ships. They made some mistakes and they hadn't worked out really good tactics to deal with the capabilities of Japanese torpedoes yet. Japanese Destroyer Captain (great book) is interesting, because during the Guadalcanal campaign he's worried that they're winning but that they're winning only about as well as they need to be and if the US starts doing better they're going to be in big trouble. Then Amatsukaze takes a turret hit, and by the time he's back in the fight captaining Shigure, it's about time for Vella Gulf where the US shows that its destroyer captains are starting to get it and their use of radar is getting better by hitting all four Japanese destroyers with torpedoes from ambush. Shigure only survived because that torpedo punched through her rudder without detonating.
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Jan 13, 2017 17:51
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I haven't read any of these books yet, but I was pretty sure that, outside of a few people at the ONI, nobody in the USN even believed the Japanese torpedoes could do what they were capable of until some time in 1943, which is why Tassafaronga was such a tactical disaster.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:05
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I think I may have had an encounter of the goon kind. Do any of you guys go by fah20 on WoWS? If so I just played a game with you - I was the annoying rear end in a top hat in the Anshan who asked if you were a goon because of the SEAMN tag and kept smoking in front of your Graf Spee in an attempt to help out.  e: Second from last on the scoreboard that game.
Soup Inspector fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 18:06
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xthetenth posted:Guadalcanal is where they bought that competence in blood and ships. They made some mistakes and they hadn't worked out really good tactics to deal with the capabilities of Japanese torpedoes yet. Japanese Destroyer Captain (great book) is interesting, because during the Guadalcanal campaign he's worried that they're winning but that they're winning only about as well as they need to be and if the US starts doing better they're going to be in big trouble. Then Amatsukaze takes a turret hit, and by the time he's back in the fight captaining Shigure, it's about time for Vella Gulf where the US shows that its destroyer captains are starting to get it and their use of radar is getting better by hitting all four Japanese destroyers with torpedoes from ambush. Shigure only survived because that torpedo punched through her rudder without detonating. I will have to pick that up. NTRabbit posted:Graf Spee and Shiny Horse have different 11" guns, and Konig has 12" guns. Historically the guns on Shiny Horse were an evolution of the ones on Graf Spee, in game they have mostly the same stats, but Graf Spee has cruiser accuracy, cruiser range, 20ms faster shells, lighter shells, and for some strange reason more AP damage. I don't know why I keep thinking the Koing has 11" guns.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:22
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Working on Japanese Destroyer Captain as well, agreed it's a great book. A little drier than the US stuff, but that's a translation issue. Kaigun: Strategy, Tactics, and Tech of the IJN 1887-1941 is a good primer for that, as well.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:12
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Kaigun and Sunburst will probably be my next book buys.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:40
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Sperglord Actual posted:Kaigun and Sunburst will probably be my next book buys. They're both great and pretty much the standard go to for the IJN. They're more technical but are fantastic. Other stuff I've read and can recommend: The First Team is now two books and the first is really good. If you can get a good price on one of Norman Friedman's Illustrated Design History books about US ships, tell me and then pick up a copy in that order. They're dry but fantastic and the reason I have my library card. Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War is probably even better than those, it's a more comprehensive technical resource and is absolutely fantastic. I also have literal feet of books to get through (From the Dreadnought to Scapa Flow adds up fast as it turns out). I need some sort of loyalty program for Naval Institute Press. Edit: may as well link up some previous posts I did in the Rule the Waves thread about ship design. The Weird and Wonderful World of North Carolina Design Sketches: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 The Superposed Turret The Torpedo Battleship Source for all of those is Friedman's Illustrated Design History of US BBs. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 19:51
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Must be the weekend! I've been MM with three teams in a row that rather than move towards capturing the objectives, straddle a line below them trading potshots with the other team and then loudly complaining our team is terrible. 
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Jan 13, 2017 21:20
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I have concluded that the people who told me the Bismarck is good are full of poo poo. It's an unmaneuverable whale that gets dropped into T10 battles constantly, where it's guns can't do much to the big ships.
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Jan 13, 2017 21:23
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The only ship I have any joy it getting up tiered +2 is the Gneisenau and that's because a t9 BB will see me, go for what they think is going to be an easy kill and completely forget it has torps.
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Jan 13, 2017 21:28
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Same, the Gneisenau is wonderful and can punch far above it's weight class thanks to those torps.
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Jan 13, 2017 21:30
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Sun Wu Kampf posted:I have concluded that the people who told me the Bismarck is good are full of poo poo. It's an unmaneuverable whale that gets dropped into T10 battles constantly, where it's guns can't do much to the big ships. It dominates when it's top tier, and I think it's even alright in T9. I think in the T10 games that you suffer a bit with the guns if you don't play it conservative until the gap between teams can close a bit for you to brawl, and sometimes it doesn't and you're just kind of stuck trying to put yourself in a position to really contribute in a meaningful way. It may have more going for it at tier than the Amagi and NC, but I feel like the Amagi and NC are both superior when uptiered to T10 games. I, too, spent an awful lot of time in the Bis getting stuck in T10 games. Thundercakes fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 21:46
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I just had my "Cruisers forget the Atlanta has AP" moment. A Furutaka came charging for me, and I couldn't drop torpedoes due to a ship hulk being between us. So I switched to AP at ~3KM and Citadeled them 8 times in about 4 seconds, killing them handily. It was hilarious how mad they got.
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Jan 13, 2017 22:11
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Devorum posted:I just had my "Cruisers forget the Atlanta has AP" moment. I had a "enemy ship forgets the Atlanta has torpedoes" moment myself today. I got nailed by a battleship, which then proceeded to merrily present a broadside to my torpedoes and get flattened. So, so worth it.
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Jan 13, 2017 22:22
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I had Nurnberg get with 6km of my Gaede and found that I can out DPM them because I can get 2-3 citadels a salvo and he was shooting HE. People seem pretty surprised when a destroyer can hit that hard.
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Jan 13, 2017 22:27
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