The election, a thread specifically about the election, for election discussion

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The election, a thread specifically about the election, for election discussion

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MooselanderII: Feb 18, 2004

JeffersonClay posted:

Schlobdb is arguing that the FDA regulations for new drugs are too onerous and that's why drugs are too expensive.

I don't think democrats should support economic policies we know will hurt people because they're politically convenient, because that's gross, and because if we win with those policies we'll be blamed when they fail to bring the promised prosperity. And there's no reason to agree with the premise--what evidence leads you to conclude free trade is a liability in elections?

Okay, you must be trolling now.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 01:08

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 04:12

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

The Kingfish posted:

You are a transparent shill. Nobody said that global trade doesn't make things cheaper.

Condiv posted:

I also doubt that globalization reduces product prices much at all. Companies pocket the reduced costs of labor instead of passing the savings to consumers.

readingatwork posted:

Not by that much. Nor would these increases affect the things that make life truly difficult for the poor (food/rent/medical bills/etc).

# ? Jan 14, 2017 01:18

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

Majorian posted:

That seems like an awfully high number, and I don't think nearly that many people in those states listen to those media sources that reflexively rolled their eyes. (which media sources are you thinking of, anyway? Chapo Trap House?)

Dave Weigel is a goon and is mining this thread for ideas.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...m=.b55ed3159f44

quote:

Some on the left want Democrats to move on from Russian hacking

On Thursday night, after Senate Democrats attended their latest briefing on the potential role of Russian hackers in sabotaging Hillary Clinton�s presidential campaign, Fox News host Tucker Carlson reintroduced viewers to an unlikely guest. Glenn Greenwald, a founder of the Intercept, was back on the show to condemn liberals for �more or less openly calling for and cheering for the intervention of the CIA� in U.S. politics.

�[Democrats] are hoping that this unelected faction in Washington will undermine and subvert and destroy the legitimacy of Donald Trump�s presidency,� said Greenwald. �The media has been aligned against Trump and will side with anybody who wants to subvert him, including the CIA.�

Greenwald, while not a liberal, had built a large following as a critic of George W. Bush. He shares a Pulitzer Prize for stories about Edward Snowden�s NSA leaks. Consistently, he has reported and written skeptically about America�s security state and foreign policy adventures. And this month, that was putting him in the unusual position of defending President-elect Donald Trump from accusations that Russians had put him into office.

Among veterans of Clinton�s campaign team, and among Democrats in Congress, nothing is less controversial than the investigations of Russian ties to Trump. But on the broader left, there�s a roiling debate about why Democrats are talking so much about this. Doing so, they believe, at best distracts from the need to change the party � and at worst aligns the party with shady �deep state� actors.

[This former British spy was identified as the Trump dossier source. Now he is in hiding.]

�There were positive steps in the direction of addressing the need for a class-based, populist approach, even if it meant alienating some of the business interests in the Democratic tent in the wake of the November defeat,� said Bhaskar Sunkara, the editor of the socialist magazine Jacobin. �Among a lot of Democrats, it seems like that conversation has been halted. I blame the focus on Russia, largely. The hacks were a factor, but how much of a factor? And why not focus on the things that Democrats have control over?�

For a young generation of thinkers and activists on the left, America�s intelligence agencies are associated with the blunder of their lifetimes � the use of over-hyped scraps of information to justify the 2003 invasion of Iraq. For an older generation, it�s just as jarring to hear Democrats cite the CIA or the other arms of the �deep state� that they watched destabilize or overthrow left-wing governments around the world.

In an interview this week, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) said that Democrats were right to discuss Russia hacking, but he suggested that the party needed to fight and message more about economic issues. (He is organizing rallies throughout the country this weekend to focus on that, including one he will attend in Michigan.)

�You gotta walk and chew bubble gum [at the same time],� said Sanders. �Russian intervention into an American election is of some significance. But the nominees we�re opposing, we�re opposing on issues like health care, the environment, education. What we�re trying to do is show the Republicans that it would be great political mistake to repeal the Affordable Care Act.�

[Obama�s top health official warns of dangers of health-care law repeal]

Outside Congress, many left-wing critics are less polite. During the election, they had not shied from covering the emails stolen from the Democratic National Committee and from Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta. The Young Turks, the popular online news channel, sent reporter Jordan Chariton to each televised debate and uploaded cringe-inducing video of Podesta and other Democrats blaming Russia whenever Chariton asked about quotes from the emails.

Since the election, the Young Turks network's flagship show has dutifully covered the Russia story and Trump's disbelieving responses to it, but on his show, host Jimmy Dore has lit into Democrats for blaming hackers for their loss, raised doubts about the credibility of intelligence agencies, and seen the heavy hand of war hawks hyping the Russia connection to destabilize Europe and the Middle East. Chariton has turned to stories about hard-hit communities but has also chided Democrats for the Russia talk.

�The breathless, hysterical marching band among establishment Democrats isn't much different than Republican cries over fake controversies like Benghazi,� Chariton wrote in an email today. �I've seen zero concrete, indisputable evidence that the Russian government or government-sponsored hackers penetrated the DNC or Clinton campaign systems. Third-party cybersecurity firms hired by the DNC; anonymous intelligence officials; and neocons on cable news huffing and puffing is not evidence that Russia �hacked our election.� �

For some, the Democrats' focus carries whiffs of conspiracy thinking. �We just went through eight years of insane nonstop Republican paranoia claiming [that] Barack Obama was a secret Muslim plant in the White House, or a secret Communist, or, incredibly, both,� wrote Dave Lindorff in Counterpunch. �How different are the liberal Democrats who are breathlessly claiming that this new president is a puppet, wittingly or unwittingly, of the evil Russian puppet master Vladimir Putin?�

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That skepticism isn't universal among critics of the Russia talk. In a July essay for the left-wing journal Current Affairs, Nathan J. Robinson argued that Democrats were "red-baiting" by accusing people who benefited from the hacks of being Russian pawns. Last week Robinson wrote a follow-up admitting that the hacks had mattered � but chastising Democrats for their seeming obsession.

�Every moment spent talking about Putin is a moment not spent talking about mass incarceration, policing, Social Security, Medicaid, public schooling, Chelsea Manning, gun violence, climate change and war,� wrote Robinson. �Trump is giving press conferences in front of factories whose jobs he has supposedly preserved, while Democrats are frantically calling Trump a Kremlin agent. Who is speaking most to people�s real life material interests?�

That worry, widely shared, is that the out-of-power Democrats have only so much time and media interest with which to build an opposition to Trump and the Republicans who control Congress and most of the states. Clinton's campaign strategy of �disqualifying� Trump, based on his connections and statements, succeeded in keeping his personal favorable numbers down � but did not keep him from victory. Just as Democrats gained little by highlighting Trump's criticism from Republicans such as Sen. John McCain and Mitt Romney, the campaign for truth about Russia hacks puts Democrats on the side of Republicans like Sen. Lindsey O. Graham, Evan McMullin, and � once again � McCain. The economic campaign advanced by Sanders has taken up most of Democrats' time since the 115th Congress began, but Russia took more of the headlines.

�To me, it bodes poorly for the future: I'm afraid we're going to make the same mistakes that the Italian center and left made when fighting [Silvio] Berlusconi,� said Jacobin's Sunkara. �We're going to focus on the man and his odious personality and try to use measures to de-legitimatize him through mostly the press and the courts. Didn't work then, don't see it working now.�

# ? Jan 14, 2017 01:27

cheese: Jan 7, 2004; Shop around for doctors! Always fucking shop for doctors. Doctors are stupid assholes. And they get by because people are cowed by their mystical bullshit quality of being able to maintain a 3.0 GPA at some Guatemalan medical college for 3 semesters. Find one that makes sense.

JeffersonClay posted:

Poor people don't spend a lot of money on luxuries. Pretty much everything they buy, they buy because they need to. If a poor person buys or rents an automobile, it's almost certainly because they absolutely need one to get to work to feed their family. If they buy clothes, it's to avoid freezing to death. If they buy a cell phone, or office supplies, it's because they actually need those things for work or school or life because poor people don't have money to waste on poo poo they don't need. All those goods are necessities. If there's a poor person who needs medication to be able to work, and who needs a car to be able to get to work, she is equally screwed by protectionism that increases the price of cars and protectionism that increases the price of medication.

You are really going to argue that the latest cellphone or a loving stapler is a "necessity" on the same level as prescription drugs? Really?

If you go without your car, you have other options (often bad ones, but other options). If you go without your medication, you may literally die. But yep, life saving prescription drugs = any other widget.

cheese fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Jan 14, 2017

# ? Jan 14, 2017 01:36

Easy Salmon Recipe: Jan 10, 2017

Typo posted:

maybe it's cuz he's a christian palestanian plus the Jews all vote democrat

I'll assume you're arguing in good faith.

1) He wasn't.

2) Given the number of anti-muslim sentiment directed against sikhs, I don't think the distinction is appreciable.

3) Democrats don't, and never have, used Jews as a boogeyman to scare voters into compliance. Antisemitism is more of a ~~neo-nazi~~ ~~alt-right~~ "economic anxiety" thing.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 01:40

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

cheese posted:

You are really going to argue that the latest cellphone or a loving stapler is a "necessity" on the same level as prescription drugs? Really? If you go without your car, you have other options (often bad ones, but other options)

Yes I think poor people that buy cell phones or office supplies or cars spend their very limited funds because the need to, not because they're dumb. Urban dwellers don't need cars. Rural people do.

[quote]If you go without your medication, you may literally die. But yep, life saving prescription drugs = any other widget.

Life-sustaining medication = Life sustaining goods like food, textiles, heaters and water filters.
Medication to treat chronic conditions and allow someone to work = goods like cars and cell phones
Medication to treat pain and discomfort = TVs, Computers,
Medication to treat cosmetic problems = luxuries

# ? Jan 14, 2017 02:04

Shbobdb: Dec 16, 2010; by Reene

cheese posted:

You are really going to argue that the latest cellphone or a loving stapler is a "necessity" on the same level as prescription drugs? Really?

If you go without your car, you have other options (often bad ones, but other options). If you go without your medication, you may literally die. But yep, life saving prescription drugs = any other widget.

That's why we need to free up the avenues people have to access things like food and medicine.

We need to regulate complex things like cars and electronics, especially when it comes to waste disposal. But plants just grow man.

The FDA is a major source of human misery. Big government and regulations can be good things (they often are, I'm a big fan of big government) but not all big government is good. The FDA needs to be stripped down. Liberalizing food imports to the US is less of a concern since we are such a breadbasket.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 02:07

Mnoba: Jun 24, 2010

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-establishment-cultural-significance-explained-540213

quote:

There is a new left and a new right. On the one side there are the unremitting orthodoxies of correct behavior and language reaching its apogee in that weird children�s crusades on college campuses, a frightening and ineffectual exercise in cultural reengineering. (The Clinton campaign tried to display �best cultural reengineering practices� with its near-parody of inclusiveness at its Philadelphia convention.) On the other side, there are cadres of radical provocateurs who provoke their foes into greater and greater flights of hysteria�mocking the left�s uptightness the way the left used to mock the right�s. And, on each side, there are social media guerilla forces to support them. The cultural establishment sees its natural allegiance to the academic and millennial left, no matter how loopy. The new Trump establishment lets the new right rile the new left into an ever-greater lather of appalled inexpressiveness, its enemies all fascists, white-supremacists, anti-feminists, transphobics. The more the left is provoked, the more it defends itself, making it more difficult for anybody in the ever-left-leaning culture business to deviate from the prescribed rules.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 02:40

cheese: Jan 7, 2004; Shop around for doctors! Always fucking shop for doctors. Doctors are stupid assholes. And they get by because people are cowed by their mystical bullshit quality of being able to maintain a 3.0 GPA at some Guatemalan medical college for 3 semesters. Find one that makes sense.

JeffersonClay posted:

Life-sustaining medication = Life sustaining goods like food, textiles, heaters and water filters.
Medication to treat chronic conditions and allow someone to work = goods like cars and cell phones
Medication to treat pain and discomfort = TVs, Computers,
Medication to treat cosmetic problems = luxuries

Somehow getting you to admit that painfully expensive and vital medications are a more important and necessary good thank staplers feels like a victory, even though I know its not.

Mnoba posted:

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-establishment-cultural-significance-explained-540213

Alt-left = alt-right now, because centrist elists have to "see both sides of the story" and make politics into a sport, encouraging people to root for their team and just grin and bear it when their side isn't in power. There is always next ~~season~~ election! No one has any real grievances with American society and there is nothing of importance to draw from the election.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 02:47

Mnoba: Jun 24, 2010

cheese posted:

Alt-left = alt-right now, because centrist elists have to "see both sides of the story" and make politics into a sport, encouraging people to root for their team and just grin and bear it when their side isn't in power. There is always next ~~season~~ election! No one has any real grievances with American society and there is nothing of importance to draw from the election.

It's scary but fascinating at the same time, where else can an image of Pepe be show and everyone comments how alt-right and racist it is but someone posts goatse and everyone is hello my old friend lmao

# ? Jan 14, 2017 02:50

Kilroy: Oct 1, 2000

Typo posted:

The global labor market has gotten better for the vast majority of human beings, it did indeed poo poo on some people in the rustbelt but protectionism isn't the solution to helping them

Well then have fun "staying the course" while continuing to lose election after election.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 02:55

Kilroy: Oct 1, 2000

In all seriousness, if there is some actual convincing and humane argument for how "comparative advantage" makes sense even when you're talking about indentured servants working in sweatshops for pennies a day, which covers both depressed wages at home and exploitation overseas, I'd love to hear it.

Seriously, if it's the sort of thing that does tend to improve the lot of the people involved in the short and long term - or even just the medium and long term, then make the case.

Because we're not talking about raising tariffs on the Danish because they make better cheese than us or something - it strikes me as morally wrong both to support those labor conditions by engaging in free trade with the profiteers, and to force our workers to compete with it. And when I say "morally wrong" I say that because it reduces quality of life.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 02:59

Kilroy: Oct 1, 2000

Schpyder posted:

LMBO they won't give two shits about you guys until you start primarying them from the left, much like the Tea Party did to the GOP establishment from the right. If leftists can't even get a decently-sized caucus in Congress, then they're not actually a political force to be reckoned with.

The progressive caucus is the largest one in Congress, for what that's worth.

(It actually isn't worth a lot, but seemed worth mentioning.)

# ? Jan 14, 2017 03:08

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

The big problem with drug reimportation as policy is that American manufacturers can limit exports to what they predict Canadian domestic consumption to be - that Canada, by allowing exports, would thereby be taking drugs out of the hands of Canadians and putting them in American hands. That is to say, we might liberalize imports at the same time that Canada places an export tariff on medicine, thereby eliminating any actual cost savings that Americans would putatively see

This is why neoliberal solutions are bad and we need full communism now

# ? Jan 14, 2017 03:39

cheese: Jan 7, 2004; Shop around for doctors! Always fucking shop for doctors. Doctors are stupid assholes. And they get by because people are cowed by their mystical bullshit quality of being able to maintain a 3.0 GPA at some Guatemalan medical college for 3 semesters. Find one that makes sense.

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

The big problem with drug reimportation as policy is that American manufacturers can limit exports to what they predict Canadian domestic consumption to be - that Canada, by allowing exports, would thereby be taking drugs out of the hands of Canadians and putting them in American hands. That is to say, we might liberalize imports at the same time that Canada places an export tariff on medicine, thereby eliminating any actual cost savings that Americans would putatively see

This is why neoliberal solutions are bad and we need full communism now

That buying American drugs from Canada because they are cheaper is an actual thing should be all that people need to understand to know that everything is broken to gently caress. That the reason it exists is gently caress You that's why is just amazing.

cheese fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Jan 14, 2017

# ? Jan 14, 2017 04:52

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

cheese posted:

That buying American drugs from Canada because they are cheaper is an actual thing should be all that people need to understand to know that everything is broken to gently caress. That the reason it exists is gently caress You that's why is just amazing.

medical tourism is an even more hair-rending example.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 05:48

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

Kilroy posted:

In all seriousness, if there is some actual convincing and humane argument for how "comparative advantage" makes sense even when you're talking about indentured servants working in sweatshops for pennies a day, which covers both depressed wages at home and exploitation overseas, I'd love to hear it.

This is a really common misconception; comparative advantage does not actually have anything to do with what the other guy can do well. Comparative advantage is the same concept as specialization or division of labor. You're better off spending your time doing the thing you do best and trading the products for the stuff you need than trying to do a little bit of everything. If you're good at fishing, you should fish all the time and trade the fish for shelter, clothes and entertainment rather than spending a bit of time each day creating all the stuff you want. Similarly, countries should specialize in the things they are best at and use the products to trade for the other stuff. This holds true even if they are trading with a country that's more efficient in every category of production.

To use your example, it makes more sense to work in a sweatshop for pennies a day than alternatives like subsistence farming that pay even less, even if you're not very good at either one compared to the guy next door. The comparison in comparative advantage is with yourself, not with the person you're trading with.

JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Jan 14, 2017

# ? Jan 14, 2017 06:10

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Shbobdb posted:

That's why we need to free up the avenues people have to access things like food and medicine.

We need to regulate complex things like cars and electronics, especially when it comes to waste disposal. But plants just grow man.

The FDA is a major source of human misery. Big government and regulations can be good things (they often are, I'm a big fan of big government) but not all big government is good. The FDA needs to be stripped down. Liberalizing food imports to the US is less of a concern since we are such a breadbasket.

can you go into more detail about why the clinical trial period is wasteful? I'm not saying you are wrong, but some explanation would be interesting

# ? Jan 14, 2017 06:17

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Kilroy posted:

Well then have fun "staying the course" while continuing to lose election after election.

I think I already said in this thread that even though protectionism is dumb if sacrificing free trade is needed to get other left-wing economic agendas passed then so be it

There's also a very strong chance the upper midwest are not flipping back blue while states like AZ and NC are gonna be solidly blue in another 2 cycles and texas/GA purple. Then you get a coastal elites+minorities coalition which don't need the white working class vote in the rustbelt anymore. Thus protectionism + low taxes + low regulation can be the GOP economic positions whereas public healthcare + free trade + high taxes + regulations can be the dem positions There is no real reason why protectionism and high taxes have to be on the same side of the left-right divide.

Typo fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Jan 14, 2017

# ? Jan 14, 2017 06:19

Kilroy: Oct 1, 2000

JeffersonClay posted:

This is a really common misconception; comparative advantage does not actually have anything to do with what the other guy can do well. Comparative advantage is the same concept as specialization or division of labor. You're better off spending your time doing the thing you do best and trading the products for the stuff you need than trying to do a little bit of everything. If you're good at fishing, you should fish all the time and trade the fish for shelter, clothes and entertainment rather than spending a bit of time each day creating all the stuff you want. Similarly, countries should specialize in the things they are best at and use the products to trade for the other stuff. This holds true even if they are trading with a country that's more efficient in every category of production.

To use your example, it makes more sense to work in a sweatshop for pennies a day than alternatives like subsistence farming that pay even less, even if you're not very good at either one compared to the guy next door.

Right, so how does free trade make this a thing that "just happens"? Say I'm good enough at fishing that I can go out and catch enough fish to feed myself and all my neighbors, and in return they build me a house and an Xbox and all the other poo poo. And, under the current legal and regulatory regime no one else can do it better than me, so I just focus on fishing.

This works out great for everyone, until the guy moves into town who lives under a bridge and doesn't play Xbox and is willing to eat just enough of the fish he catches to barely stay alive, fishing out of a rickety piece of poo poo boat that's going to eventually sink and kill him, and he's selling fish for half of what I can. It's cold comfort to me as my neighbors take away my house and my Xbox that, well can't you see Kilroy, there is one more house and Xbox for the rest of us now! So I vote for the guy who I think might smash this racket under his boot, and instead of seeing where you hosed up you call me a racist.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 06:29

Shbobdb: Dec 16, 2010; by Reene

Typo posted:

can you go into more detail about why the clinical trial period is wasteful? I'm not saying you are wrong, but some explanation would be interesting

The main consulting firm for clinical trials is Bain. Anything Bain touches is likely to be toxic as gently caress. That coupled with the pro-monopolization aspects of clinical trials you've got negative pressure.

The regulations also contribute to this. The documentation format is incredibly precise and if you get audited and there are minor errors it can derail the entire process. Even if everything is done right, you are looking at 3-4x greater time commitment to make sure the documentation is done correctly. This is done by specialists and specialists labor costs, especially regulatory "labor" which is often something that can be done at an associates level, creates an artificial demand for something incredibly expensive. So you take a lab tech, have them get certified out the wazoo by the FDA ($$$) then you also have to spend huge amounts of money to keep them since they are now valuable. On top of that you add byzantine regulations designed to create infractions (and fines), one example would be not using extension cords. If there is an extension cord in your GLP area, boom, that's a fine. There are plenty of other things like that. All knowable stuff but often hits the level of unrealistic leading to human errors. It's bad stuff.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 06:32

Kilroy: Oct 1, 2000

And, to extend the analogy a little further, the bridge guy is working for a company whose entire business strategy is going from town to town and farming out more of the local industry to people who live under bridges and eat 1600 calories a day, until eventually everyone is living under a bridge and they own all the houses and Xboxes.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 06:34

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

Typo posted:

I think I already said in this thread that even though protectionism is dumb if sacrificing free trade is needed to get other left-wing economic agendas passed then so be it

There's also a very strong chance the upper midwest are not flipping back blue while states like AZ and NC are gonna be solidly blue in another 2 cycles and texas/GA purple. Then you get a coastal elites+minorities coalition which don't need the white working class vote in the rustbelt anymore. Thus protectionism + low taxes + low regulation can be the GOP economic positions whereas public healthcare + free trade + high taxes + regulations can be the dem positions There is no real reason why protectionism and high taxes have to be on the same side of the left-right divide.

God drat it stop just loving expecting everything to turn out roses automatically. If you want more Bernies then you need to vote your rear end off everywhere, you need to volunteer your rear end off everywhere, and you need to keep it up for years. That demographic wave bullshit is worth abso loving lutely nothing if it's illegal to vote while black/brown so while you wait for millions of young immigrants and second-generation kids to grow up to vote the loving subhuman filth in the GOP is declaring open season on their civil rights before they're even old enough to drive. Hanging your hopes on just-so fantasy is asking to be handed another four years of trump.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 06:35

SSJ_naruto_2003: Oct 12, 2012

democrats are actually bad and we should all be radical leftists

# ? Jan 14, 2017 07:21

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:

democrats are actually bad and we should all be radical leftists

Well radical leftists for America ie social democrats in the rest of the world. That said, I don't see a way forward unless some type of new discussion happens over economics that recognizes that free trade in the way that has been pushed has run its course and that there needs to much stronger government intervention in the economy especially in "forgotten" areas of the country.

That said, I think it will probably take 8 years of Trump since the Democrats are tripling down on shifting blame for the election (it was "Bernie and Putin"). Anyway if you want "more bernies" the first course of action is to fight for the soul of the Democratic Party itself, otherwise you are more or less wasting your time. If the Democratic Party remains unreformed then all that work your during is most likely going to be seriously undermined.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Jan 14, 2017

# ? Jan 14, 2017 08:21

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Ardennes posted:

Well radical leftists for America ie social democrats in the rest of the world. That said, I don't see a way forward unless some type of new discussion happens over economics that recognizes that free trade in the way that has been pushed has run its course and that there needs to much stronger government intervention in the economy especially in "forgotten" areas of the country.

That said, I think it will probably take 8 years of Trump since the Democrats are tripling down on shifting blame for the election (it was Bernie and Putin). Anyway if you want "more bernies" the first course of action is to fight for the soul of the Democratic Party itself, otherwise you are more or less wasting your time. If the Democratic Party remains unreformed then all that work your during is most likely going to be seriously undermined.

Yah I say work interanlly to shut up every Jefferson clay type in the Democratic party. Then work to take over the country and cleanse it.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 09:05

Shbobdb: Dec 16, 2010; by Reene

Crowsbeak posted:

Yah I say work interanlly to shut up every Jefferson clay type in the Democratic party. Then work to take over the country and cleanse it.

Been tried before with mixed (at best) results.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 09:05

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Crowsbeak posted:

Yah I say work interanlly to shut up every Jefferson clay type in the Democratic party. Then work to take over the country and cleanse it.

The unfortunate part is that centrists still run the party, and make much of its caucus. While the party has learned to pander to its "progressive" base to some degree, they seem completely unwilling to do much more than.

Anecdotally, I have been noticing on Facebook (yeah I know...) that a larger and larger number of people who call themselves progressives seem to be making a target of working class whites and/or really pushing the Russian angle. I don't know how much of an alliance can be created by liberals/progressives and leftists at this point without one side giving up their narrative. If anything it seems despite Trump there is vanishing common ground.

If anything American leftists probably need to taken more of a "Partizan" approach and realize they are deeply outnumbered in the party itself and a desperate covert battle is going to needed to take control. (If this sounds like the Bolsheviks, it isn't an accident.) The only other solution is hope the centrists get lucky, and get AZ/NC and PA/FL/MI/WI to flip (while still being slaughtered at the legislative/state level).

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Jan 14, 2017

# ? Jan 14, 2017 09:21

shrike82: Jun 11, 2005

I don't see that working unfortunately given what's happening with the Labour party in the UK.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 09:41

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

shrike82 posted:

I don't see that working unfortunately given what's happening with the Labour party in the UK.

Admittedly, the Labour Party is in a worse situation since there are so many other parties (SNP, Greens, LD, UKIP) that can take advantage of its weakness. In all honesty, I don't think Labour would have done any better if it had elected some random centrist (the list of which is endless).

Basically, the choice is push for what you want and most likely fail or give up and certainly fail.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 09:51

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Ardennes posted:

The unfortunate part is that centrists still run the party, and make much of its caucus. While the party has learned to pander to its "progressive" base to some degree, they seem completely unwilling to do much more than.

Anecdotally, I have been noticing on Facebook (yeah I know...) that a larger and larger number of people who call themselves progressives seem to be making a target of working class whites and/or really pushing the Russian angle. I don't know how much of an alliance can be created by liberals/progressives and leftists at this point without one side giving up their narrative. If anything it seems despite Trump there is vanishing common ground.

If anything American leftists probably need to taken more of a "Partizan" approach and realize they are deeply outnumbered in the party itself and a desperate covert battle is going to needed to take control. (If this sounds like the Bolsheviks, it isn't an accident.) The only other solution is hope the centrists get lucky, and get AZ/NC and PA/FL/MI/WI to flip (while still being slaughtered at the legislative/state level).

Yeah I've noticed older "progs" do it. THe younger ones are going that Bernie would have won and posting stuff from DSA. The aprty is headed towards civil war and these older types are going to die of old age. Covert action will be required in some ways. Like working to cleanse the party apparatus. But it can be done in the next eight years. Also we're not deeply outnumbered or the centerists wouldn't use dirty tricks to win. We'll crush the filth in the party then clean the filth in the country even if we have to have the filth in this country in chains rebuilding it.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 09:59

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Crowsbeak posted:

Yeah I've noticed older "progs" do it. THe younger ones are going that Bernie would have won and posting stuff from DSA. The aprty is headed towards civil war and these older types are going to die of old age. Covert action will be required in some ways. Like working to cleanse the party apparatus. But it can be done in the next eight years. Also we're not deeply outnumbered or the centerists wouldn't use dirty tricks to win. We'll crush the filth in the party then clean the filth in the country even if we have to have the filth in this country in chains rebuilding it.

The left-wing is deeply outnumbered in the apparatus of the party itself though, among membership/potential voters not so much. It may very take building a separate apparatus to push views in the party that fights co-option by centrists at every opportunity, as other have mentioned a "left-wing tea party" that doesn't (hopefully) sell out.

It is going to be rather grim because there is going to be a natural push for "unity" as Trump begins pushing the country in a more authoritarian direction (his recent press conference is a real "sign post" in that regard.) It isn't easy to create a common front without being absorbed.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 10:08

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Ardennes posted:

The left-wing is deeply outnumbered in the apparatus of the party itself though, among membership/potential voters not so much. It may very take building a separate apparatus to push views in the party that fights co-option by centrists at every opportunity, as other have mentioned a "left-wing tea party" that doesn't (hopefully) sell out.

It is going to be rather grim because there is going to be a natural push for "unity" as Trump begins pushing the country in a more authoritarian direction (his recent press conference is a real "sign post" in that regard.) It isn't easy to create a common front without being absorbed.

Well then it will be a campaign of Lenin against the centrist filth. When it is docile will it be allowed to live. THen the time of taking over the country will be on the table and cleansing it of GOP. Personally I am fine with anything up to 1861. If we can get to the point where we can order the military to bomb the camens then we will be well on our way to saving America.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 10:17

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

Ardennes posted:

The left-wing is deeply outnumbered in the apparatus of the party itself though, among membership/potential voters not so much. It may very take building a separate apparatus to push views in the party that fights co-option by centrists at every opportunity, as other have mentioned a "left-wing tea party" that doesn't (hopefully) sell out.

It is going to be rather grim because there is going to be a natural push for "unity" as Trump begins pushing the country in a more authoritarian direction (his recent press conference is a real "sign post" in that regard.) It isn't easy to create a common front without being absorbed.

The good news is, people like Schumer seem to see which way the wind is blowing well enough to pay the economic justice wing lip service. Even if it's just lip service and they don't believe a word they're saying (and there's no "ifs" about it when it comes to Schumer, of course), widespread lip service to a principle still normalizes it. Plus it gives the progressives more leverage to hold those policymakers to it. So I see room to be optimistic. Progressive activists just need to keep in mind that DNC leaders are, at their core, immense cowards who are terrified of being primaried or ousted. Thy can be bullied.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 10:56

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

FAUXTON posted:

God drat it stop just loving expecting everything to turn out roses automatically. If you want more Bernies then you need to vote your rear end off everywhere, you need to volunteer your rear end off everywhere, and you need to keep it up for years. That demographic wave bullshit is worth abso loving lutely nothing if it's illegal to vote while black/brown so while you wait for millions of young immigrants and second-generation kids to grow up to vote the loving subhuman filth in the GOP is declaring open season on their civil rights before they're even old enough to drive. Hanging your hopes on just-so fantasy is asking to be handed another four years of trump.

right, even if this does happen it's not gonna happen in 2020, so the democrats needs to put extra effort in to recapture PA/WI/MI

# ? Jan 14, 2017 15:03

zonohedron: Aug 14, 2006

FAUXTON posted:

Maybe, I don't know. If it's a change then you can see why - the drat secretary of state won't or can't acquit himself as anything other than a russophile, the president is a pissguzzler, his Treasury secretary is a greed elf with a name that rolls off the tongue like barf, the secdef is claiming he'd straight up do a 180 against his CiC, and the HUD secretary is a strange sleepy man with wild ideas about pyramids and belt buckles, and the AG is like a motion-activated lawn gnome who shouts racial slurs and Confederate slogans at passers-by.

This thread is kind of weird to come back to after two months away. The focus still seems to be on "anyone but Clinton could have defeated Trump, and also nothing and no one caused her defeat but Clinton herself", when there's been increasing evidence that the Russian government tried to make Clinton look odious and tried to benefit Trump.

Ardennes posted:

That said, I think it will probably take 8 years of Trump since the Democrats are tripling down on shifting blame for the election (it was "Bernie and Putin"). Anyway if you want "more bernies" the first course of action is to fight for the soul of the Democratic Party itself, otherwise you are more or less wasting your time. If the Democratic Party remains unreformed then all that work your during is most likely going to be seriously undermined.

Aside from this thread I haven't encountered "omg Bernie lost Hillary the election", and I've seen plenty of non-Democrats - including some "Obama was among the worst presidents ever" folks - suggesting that Putin had, at minimum, a great deal of influence on rumors/lies reported as news. The Tea Party has more-or-less wrecked the Republicans' ability to get anything done, and results in (comparatively-)moderate Republicans getting threatened with "being primaried"; this is not something to aspire to.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 18:28

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

zonohedron posted:

This thread is kind of weird to come back to after two months away. The focus still seems to be on "anyone but Clinton could have defeated Trump, and also nothing and no one caused her defeat but Clinton herself", when there's been increasing evidence that the Russian government tried to make Clinton look odious and tried to benefit Trump.

Its not like keeping a secret internet server, getting the FBI to investigate you. Refusing to release transcripts from Goldman Sachs speeches in any way make one look odious.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 18:45

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

zonohedron posted:

Aside from this thread I haven't encountered "omg Bernie lost Hillary the election", and I've seen plenty of non-Democrats - including some "Obama was among the worst presidents ever" folks - suggesting that Putin had, at minimum, a great deal of influence on rumors/lies reported as news. The Tea Party has more-or-less wrecked the Republicans' ability to get anything done, and results in (comparatively-)moderate Republicans getting threatened with "being primaried"; this is not something to aspire to.

I heard plenty of shade being thrown toward Bernie and his supporters including from Obama himself recently. As for Putin, I thought the much bigger charge was the leak itself and possible connections to Trump. Also, in all honesty, fake news often comes from across the spectrum (although obviously RT and other Russian owned sites play their part).

Wait how did the Tea Party stop the Republicans get anything done now again? Donald Trump is going to be president, the GOP has control both houses and dominate state level politics. Hell, you could could argue that the Tea Party if anything helped catapult the Republicans into political hegemony. The entire goal of the Tea Party was to threaten moderates and bring the party to the right and they were very successful in that regard (although being co-opted at the same time).

# ? Jan 14, 2017 19:18

Mnoba: Jun 24, 2010

Ardennes posted:

The entire goal of the Tea Party was to threaten moderates and bring the party to the right and they were very successful in that regard (although being co-opted at the same time).

The left has to do the same, but at least the Tea Party didn't have to go thru the Clinton machine.

# ? Jan 14, 2017 20:15

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 04:12

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

if the progressives manages to primary out cory booker it will probably show their power the same way primarying out eric cantor did for the tea party but I kinda doubt that's gonna happen

# ? Jan 14, 2017 21:23

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The election, a thread specifically about the election, for election discussion

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