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Josef bugman posted:I am not, I simply dislike the idea of, again, people fainting and getting sick from it. You're not supposed to get sick and faint. If you're doing that the teaching of the Church is to either modify the fast or not observe it at all. If someone tried to join a monastic religious order and it affected their health like that, they'd be advised to leave if not outright not allowed to make perpetual vows. We're not hurting ourselves, that would be a sin. It's each according to their ability and their state in life.
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Jan 17, 2017 00:27
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Mo Tzu posted:if god wanted that we wouldn't have martyrs If you believe God makes martyrs then I question wishing to serve Him. Thirteen Orphans posted:You're not supposed to get sick and faint. If you're doing that the teaching of the Church is to either modify the fast or not observe it at all. If someone tried to join a monastic religious order and it affected their health like that, they'd be advised to leave if not outright not allowed to make perpetual vows. We're not hurting ourselves, that would be a sin. It's each according to their ability and their state in life. Looking at some of the responses in this thread. Well I am none too sure. In principle however, I agree. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 00:31
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Just sit alone on top of a pillar in the desert and if God wants you to eat He'll send tasty locusts.
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Jan 17, 2017 00:39
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Josef bugman posted:If you believe God makes martyrs then I question wishing to serve Him. it's less god makes martyrs and more following god and following christ's teachings leads to martyrdom. like following christ's teachings about the poor and dispossessed led to oscar romero and ignacio ellacuria's deaths. course the same can be said for takagi kenmyo so it's not like christians have a monopoly on it still, the point is church teachings say martyrdom is preferable to apostasy, but confession exists because of apostates so make of that what you will
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Jan 17, 2017 00:45
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I intend to indulge in all the good things of this world, just not to the point where I'm hurting myself or depriving someone else. On the other hand I could see that becoming nearly synonymous with fasting within my lifetime. 
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Jan 17, 2017 01:10
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pidan posted:Traditionally Christians were kind of against sex in general, I never really understood why. Matthew 19:10-12 posted:10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.” You can debate the merit of these verses of course, but Jesus certainly seems to have thought celibacy was something to aspire to.
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Jan 17, 2017 01:16
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Samuel Clemens posted:You can debate the merit of these verses of course, but Jesus certainly seems to have thought celibacy was something to aspire to. Interesting to note, these are the verses read when Orthodox take monastic vows, something that isn't for everyone
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Jan 17, 2017 01:19
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I mean, becoming a monk is basically saying that the basic difficulty setting of life is for scrubs and activating the hard mode.
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Jan 17, 2017 01:23
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my dad posted:I mean, becoming a monk is basically saying that the basic difficulty setting of life is for scrubs and activating the hard mode. I am stealing this because it's a fantastic and hilariously accurate description.
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Jan 17, 2017 01:40
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my dad posted:I mean, becoming a monk is basically saying that the basic difficulty setting of life is for scrubs and activating the hard mode. It's totally unfair that Buddhists and Hindus get the NG+ but Christians don't 
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Jan 17, 2017 01:56
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System Metternich posted:It's totally unfair that Buddhists and Hinduists get the NG+ but Christians don't you're all a bunch of casuals, i'll be over here playing life: the roguelike
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Jan 17, 2017 01:57
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System Metternich posted:It's totally unfair that Buddhists and Hindus get the NG+ but Christians don't Christians get the expansion pack with new levels and infinite health.
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Jan 17, 2017 02:07
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Deteriorata posted:Christians get the expansion pack with new levels and infinite health. actually Mahayana Buddhists get that, too. Plus flying and mind reading
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Jan 17, 2017 02:09
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System Metternich posted:It's totally unfair that Buddhists and Hindus get the NG+ but Christians don't Well if you squint at Origen really hard you can get there since he doesn't preclude the possibility of another fall to the material world after the restoration of all things to its original spiritual state in the eschaton. Origen's cosmology is some Platonic  though.Tuxedo Catfish posted:you're all a bunch of casuals, i'll be over here playing life: the roguelike 
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Jan 17, 2017 02:17
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The Phlegmatist posted:Origen Origen is great because he allows Catholics to have this conversation: A: So I hear a lot about Origen, and they even include readings from his work in the Liturgy of the Hours, so why isn't he a saint? B: He was technically a heretic. He didn't believe is Christ's full divinity, though we still read him because at the time he was writing that was still a question the Church hadn't definitively answered. A: What? That's bull! Thomas Aquinas wrote against the Immaculate Conception before it was official teaching but he's still a saint! B: Origen also cut his balls off to make himself holier. A: Oh... Thirteen Orphans fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 03:12
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he also believed that our glorified bodies would be perfectly spherical
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Jan 17, 2017 04:00
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HEY GAIL posted:he also believed that our glorified bodies would be perfectly spherical This made me legitimately lol. In other news, while watching spider-man 3, I was struck by the scene where peter parker is in a church bell tower and the bell is helping him expunge the symbiote. Given that bells are traditionally a ward against demons (see Fantasia's Night at Bald Mountain sequence for another cinematic example of this).
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Jan 17, 2017 04:27
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HEY GAIL posted:he also believed that our glorified bodies would be perfectly spherical and on a frictionless plane?
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Jan 17, 2017 05:51
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HEY GAIL posted:he also believed that our glorified bodies would be perfectly spherical So by being a goon I'm off to a good start?
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Jan 17, 2017 07:16
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"What did you have for blackfast?'  "...Nothing."
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Jan 17, 2017 07:21
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Thirteen Orphans posted:You're not supposed to get sick and faint. If you're doing that the teaching of the Church is to either modify the fast or not observe it at all. If someone tried to join a monastic religious order and it affected their health like that, they'd be advised to leave if not outright not allowed to make perpetual vows. We're not hurting ourselves, that would be a sin. It's each according to their ability and their state in life. That's true now, but historically self-mutilation was a big thing among monks. And if they're ok with whipping yourself bloody I don't think they'd draw the line at hypoglycemia.
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Jan 17, 2017 08:39
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Mo Tzu posted:still, the point is church teachings say martyrdom is preferable to apostasy, but confession exists because of apostates so make of that what you will Again, if God urges you to kill yourself to become more holy, God is not worth worshipping. my dad posted:I mean, becoming a monk is basically saying that the basic difficulty setting of life is for scrubs and activating the hard mode. I sincerely doubt that. Some of the Benedictine Houses that my colleagues worked at were basically a cross between giant libraries and health spas for older people. I mean I don't doubt that there are places where the main job is working outside in a garden and then coming in to think about God. But I imagine a fair number of them are just theological slap fight factories. Samuel Clemens posted:You can debate the merit of these verses of course, but Jesus certainly seems to have thought celibacy was something to aspire to. To me that seems to be more saying "Don't judge people who are not having sex, if they choose to that's fine and can get them into the Kingdom". pidan posted:That's true now, but historically self-mutilation was a big thing among monks. And if they're ok with whipping yourself bloody I don't think they'd draw the line at hypoglycemia. Weeping, beating yourself and living on top of a pillar. All signs of holiness and not at all of being maybe in need of a bit of help.
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Jan 17, 2017 08:53
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dying for a cause does not equal killing yourself mlk jr was a martyr, he knew that the work he was doing was dangerous for him and his family, but he worked towards racial equality, an end to poverty, and an end to the war in vietnam, and for those things he was murdered. following the teachings of christ and following christ's example he was murdered. what sort of god would prefer no one to challenge injustices, for no one to follow christ's example of caring for the least of these? it's not suicide but the work of grave importance i'd say it's not only the christian way, but a way most religions strive for, if not all religions. a basis for dialogue, for iron sharpening iron
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Jan 17, 2017 09:15
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I wholeheartedly agree. As the asatru say: "One of the primary blessings of a spiritual life is facing eternity with courage" Hell, I have spent most of my life fighting cops and politicians, I just didn't realize why until recently!
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Jan 17, 2017 10:07
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Josef bugman posted:theological slap fight factories thread title
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Jan 17, 2017 14:59
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Josef bugman posted:I'm glad, but you fell onto train tracks! I, again, would advise seeing a medical professional about this, because that would scare the ever loving gently caress out of me. Have you seriously never met people who sometimes forget to eat? This doesn't have anything to do with religion, mate. Of course it's loving dangerous, and she's bloody aware of it. Josef bugman posted:I sincerely doubt that. Some of the Benedictine Houses that my colleagues worked at were basically a cross between giant libraries and health spas for older people. I mean I don't doubt that there are places where the main job is working outside in a garden and then coming in to think about God. I generally like your posts, but don't fishmech. You turned a joke about the nature of the monastic calling into a "well, actually, you see, I know a guy who". When an idea is made real, there are differences in how it is applied, no poo poo Sherlock. Josef bugman posted:theological slap fight factories. This, however, deserves to be the thread title.
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Jan 17, 2017 15:02
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i just remembered this song existed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDS00Pnhkqk i feel like this helps connect the martyrdom of mlk, ignacio ellacuria, and oscar romero to jesus' crucifixion in a way i didn't really explicate much in my posts
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Jan 17, 2017 15:03
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Happy MLKJr. Day, my liturgigoon family.Mo Tzu posted:dying for a cause does not equal killing yourself Whether there is a God or not, this is the reality of a believer. It's why on the night before he was murdered, Martin Luther King Jr. can have the grace to preach he is not afraid of death. He wanted to live, "Longevity has its place," but he did not want to let the real threat of death get in the way of what he thought was doing God's will. His in an American prophet, martyr, and sinner. The mountaintop speech is worth watching on any day in which awesomeness is required: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oehry1JC9Rk Josef bugman posted:Most likely, however it could conceivably be argued that fasting in extremis induces an altered state of consciousness that is often right up there "fermented fruit drink" and "These weird mushrooms I found", hence why people think it is a good way of contacting the divine. I take your point, and it is understood by religious traditions, too. Having tried the extremes of asceticism, the first Buddha said the Middle Way leads to liberation. Similarly, the story of Jesus does not end with him fasting for the rest of his life. zonohedron posted:On the other hand, a spiritual life that never involves fasting is probably lacking, too; Catholics and Orthodox have prescribed fast days (and feast days!) in part to make sure that doesn't happen. I take your point, too. People have realized the imperatives of God are challenging, and spiritual strengthening and conditioning is necessary if you want to win in spiritual warfare.
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Jan 17, 2017 15:25
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Caufman posted:I take your point, too. People have realized the imperatives of God are challenging, and spiritual strengthening and conditioning is necessary if you want to win in spiritual warfare. It's easy for critics (and even adherents) to focus on the discipline of faith. Let's also remember: So I commend the enjoyment of life, because there is nothing better for a person under the sun than to eat and drink and be glad. Then joy will accompany them in their toil all the days of the life God has given them under the sun. - Ecclesiastes 8:15
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Jan 17, 2017 15:30
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Caufman posted:Happy MLKJr. Day, my liturgigoon family. Martin Luther King is somebody I want to study more. I read some of his writing in school and I always thought he was really good at writing clearly, and he had a lot of ideas about things. also hegel please see a doctor if you haven't. it is not normal to get sick just because you haven't eaten meat 
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Jan 17, 2017 17:43
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Lutha Mahtin posted:also hegel please see a doctor if you haven't. it is not normal to get sick just because you haven't eaten meat
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Jan 17, 2017 18:02
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could i ask that you all keep me and my colleagues in your prayers? we're still reeling a bit because a teach-in that we put on for MLK Day yesterday (about how classical antiquity has been and continues to be deployed in support of racist and white supremacist agendas) was invaded by actual no-poo poo fascists from Identity Evropa. nobody was hurt and their video camera was confiscated, so probably nobody's going to be doxxed, but we're all still rather terrified, particularly those of us in racial and sexual minorities
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Jan 17, 2017 19:32
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Mo Tzu posted:dying for a cause does not equal killing yourself The problem with dying is you don't get to defend your actions after the fact. Because it will be reinterpreted. Do you think the people who died fighting for a democratic Spain got memorialised under Franco? That is what is going to happen, those beliefs you died for will fade into irrelevance or be stamped out, or worse co-opted, to suit whoever is in charge. The one who permits the injustices in the first place, that does not react when horrendous things are done in His name. If He cared for the least of us, then He's poo poo at putting it into action. And words without actions are meaningless. To commit yourself wholey to a cause, to think that it is worth dying for, instead of worth living for. I do not think that is a good thing, but that's not something I would insist others believe. my dad posted:Have you seriously never met people who sometimes forget to eat? This doesn't have anything to do with religion, mate. Of course it's loving dangerous, and she's bloody aware of it. I do, but again I have never fainted because of it and would prefer that it doesn't happen to other people. I now know that it's a known quantity and should have realised that earlier. my dad posted:I generally like your posts, but don't fishmech. You turned a joke about the nature of the monastic calling into a "well, actually, you see, I know a guy who". When an idea is made real, there are differences in how it is applied, no poo poo Sherlock. Sorry. I am getting far too het up about a lot of stuff at the moment. I apologise. (realised I used metaphysical in the wrong context there) Caufman posted:I take your point, too. People have realized the imperatives of God are challenging, and spiritual strengthening and conditioning is necessary if you want to win in spiritual warfare. As regards the highlighted part: How does one "win" in spiritual warfare? What is Spiritual warfare in the first place? Bel_Canto posted:could i ask that you all keep me and my colleagues in your prayers? we're still reeling a bit because a teach-in that we put on for MLK Day yesterday (about how classical antiquity has been and continues to be deployed in support of racist and white supremacist agendas) was invaded by actual no-poo poo fascists from Identity Evropa. nobody was hurt and their video camera was confiscated, so probably nobody's going to be doxxed, but we're all still rather terrified, particularly those of us in racial and sexual minorities Hope all of you are okay! Hope they catch the people that did this and, at the very least, have them get a bit of community service. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 22:52
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I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Dying, or at the very least being put at risk of dying, is a consequence of working for the poor. As it turns out, a lot of people would rather rabble rousers die than listen to them. Like are you aware of the risks people like MLK, Malcolm X, Kwame Ture, Huey Newton, and Angela Davis took fighting against racism in America? Like it's all well and good to talk about wanting to live instead of die but that's not the dichotomy I'm talking about; it's safety in silence and risk in speaking out
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Jan 17, 2017 23:12
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Josef bugman posted:Hope all of you are okay! Hope they catch the people that did this and, at the very least, have them get a bit of community service. 
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Jan 17, 2017 23:16
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Mo Tzu posted:I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Dying, or at the very least being put at risk of dying, is a consequence of working for the poor. As it turns out, a lot of people would rather rabble rousers die than listen to them. Probably not. I am sorry about that. But what I am trying to say is that, in death your death can be used to mean anything. The value of martyrdom is always to those left behind afterwards. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 23:39
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Almost any social progress in history has left a trail of martyrs in its wake. If people weren't willing to die for their beliefs, we wouldn't have the forty-hour week, for example.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:57
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Samuel Clemens posted:Almost any social progress in history has left a trail of martyrs in its wake. If people weren't willing to die for their beliefs, we wouldn't have the forty-hour week, for example. I hate to  but, have you ever heard of "The Horst Wessel Lied". If you haven't then basically Horst Wessel was a Nazi's Nazi, he was assassinated by two members of the German Communist party and his death was turned into a symbol and song for the Nazi movement. Martyrdom can be done just as well by juntas and regimes as by brave rebels and people we actually should support. I'm trying hard to put this into words, and I am not really sure this is right but, essentially what I was arguing was this: 1) If you die protesting something and become a martyr to it you only become a martyr if your "side" (incorrect terminology I know) eventually wins out against it. 2) If you become a martyr to something you instantly stop being human and become a symbol, which becomes useful by both people who back you and by people who wish to discredit you. Whilst it is better to die than to do horrible things, but dying for a belief? I can't help but think "What if I am wrong and have been misinterpreting everything"? Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 00:03
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Josef bugman posted:I hate to okay there are a few things going on here and i'm going to try to dissect them piece by piece first, you seem to think the value of martyrdom is in leaving an example behind. it's not. the value of martyrdom is living your life according to your principles, seeing them through to the end even when faced with the threat of violence. whether it's refusing to stomp on the fumie, refusing to convert to christianity, refusing to accept white supremacy, refusing to ignore the plight of the poor, etc. the value of martyrdom is individualistic. second, you seem to believe that martyrdom being held up as an ideal means that every person should be martyred. this is not the case. as i said earlier, confession exists because of apostasy. what i'm referring to is that in the early days of christianity, when christians were being persecuted, there were those who claimed to not be christian and so were spared. in order to reconcile them with the rest of the church, it was necessary to create some kind of ritual that would bring them back into the community. this sacrament took several hundred years to evolve into something resembling confessions today, but the groundwork was laid there. we can't all act as altruistically as we think we should. we aren't all called to answer for our beliefs and ideals regardless of the consequences. for those of us who are and fail, that does not mark us as lesser people but instead as people. third, you seem to think martyrdom is the equivalent of some sort of suicide. that it's something i decide to do. it's not. whether it's a daimyo presenting fumie to captured kirishitans, a soldier raping and murdering nuns for their work for the poor, or mlk being shot at a hotel, it wasn't something they asked for, it was the result of actions outside of their control. ignacio ellacuria didn't ask to be murdered with his jesuit brothers and their maid and her daughter. the soldiers did that. all ignacio ellacuria did was lead a school, write theology and history, and talk about the poor and the need to care for them. oscar romero may have questioned the military government and the united states' involvement in various wars in el salvador, but he didn't ask them to shoot him. and not for nothing but have you ever seen a man for all seasons? it's about sir thomas moore and his execution by king henry the viii for refusing to go along with henry viii as head of the church. thomas moore is a saint in both the catholic church AND the anglican church, so sometimes the other side recognizes "oh poo poo we hosed up"
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Jan 18, 2017 00:43
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Mo Tzu posted:okay there are a few things going on here and i'm going to try to dissect them piece by piece It is very late at night and I am more than likely not going to respond correctly so I am going to go to bed before answering, but I do have a question, more as a general one for the thread. How on earth do you believe in... well anything? How can people be so sure.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:04
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