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Bleck posted:Almost every argument in favor of a video game's matchmaking system made by people outside of the design team is functioning on a sugar-coated and vaguely condescending notion that "it works, because it does." Conversely almost every argument that a video game's matchmaking is broken seems to be founded on nothing more substantial than "god my teammates are such idiots, this matchmaking must not work."
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Jan 17, 2017 23:52
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I tried some aim training drills today and when I actually focus on what I'm doing I realize how uncoordinated I really am. You'd think that your movement hand should be able to coordinate with your aiming hand since one brain is doing the work, but when doing movement drills I realized my aim was always playing catch-up. The first quick play match I did already felt better though, I'm gonna stick with this and see how much it helps.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:53
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:I tried some aim training drills today and when I actually focus on what I'm doing I realize how uncoordinated I really am. You'd think that your movement hand should be able to coordinate with your aiming hand since one brain is doing the work, but when doing movement drills I realized my aim was always playing catch-up. What training drills are you doing?
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Jan 18, 2017 00:01
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Fiddly question, how does Mercy's damage boost interact with projectiles? If she charges me when I fire Junkrat grenades and stops before they go off, will they be boosted? What about the reverse? What about longer-delay abilities like his remote mine?
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Jan 18, 2017 00:06
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Papercut posted:What training drills are you doing? I mainly play Tracer, so this set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMT-gtyVnNI They also have an Ana drill set and I play a lot of her too so I will probably practice that as well.
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Jan 18, 2017 00:08
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Bruceski posted:Fiddly question, how does Mercy's damage boost interact with projectiles? If she charges me when I fire Junkrat grenades and stops before they go off, will they be boosted? What about the reverse? What about longer-delay abilities like his remote mine? I think people said they're boosted the moment mercy boosts you, and stops the moment she leaves
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Jan 18, 2017 00:11
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My understanding is Blizzard thinks they are really smart and so aren't just using a pure elo system. When you have a system that is based on something besides wining and losing you could theoretically have someone who gets wins but isn't as high as they should be because the system thinks they didn't contribute towards those wins. The argument about elo existing or not is irrelvant since Blizzard's system isn't even elo. Good thing they made it hard to tell how many points you gained or lost each match, wouldn't want people to have information.
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Jan 18, 2017 00:15
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Thor-Stryker posted:I just like videos of sub-2000 SR playing. I kept watching, and him playing Widow is pretty cool, grappling to basically nothing and killing dudes on his way down is wonderful. Do high level widows actually do that?
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Jan 18, 2017 00:21
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Rick posted:I kept watching, and him playing Widow is pretty cool, grappling to basically nothing and killing dudes on his way down is wonderful. Do high level widows actually do that? The first 2 months or so of the pro-scene in overwatch was literally nothing but that.
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Jan 18, 2017 00:27
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I just had a great game as Tracer where some guy talked poo poo to me before it even started because I'm level 33. It's Hollywood and we end up pushing up pretty quickly before stalling out a bit, but I get 24 kills / 0 deaths until we push it up to right in front of their base. Also opened her Legendary Punk skin today, so all around good Tracer day.
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Jan 18, 2017 00:49
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Thom Yorke raps posted:I just had a great game as Tracer where some guy talked poo poo to me before it even started because I'm level 33. It's Hollywood and we end up pushing up pretty quickly before stalling out a bit, but I get 24 kills / 0 deaths until we push it up to right in front of their base. Also opened her Legendary Punk skin today, so all around good Tracer day.
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Jan 18, 2017 00:55
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Levels are even less valuable indicators than before because there's been an explosion in smurfing since the holidays when the game went on significant sale two times
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Jan 18, 2017 01:04
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I'm guessing "Smurfing" means veteran players buying a new account and playing from scratch all over again? Man, some people have more money than sense. As a newbie, I guess I can appreciate being matchmade against prestige levellers and people in their 30s-80s. It shows I must be doing something right in my teens.
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Jan 18, 2017 02:17
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Olive Branch posted:I'm guessing "Smurfing" means veteran players buying a new account and playing from scratch all over again? Man, some people have more money than sense. Had a guy in a comp game try to convince me that his poor performance as Widowmaker wasn't indicative of his actual skill level, as this was an alt account, and that his actual rating was near 4000. I'm not sure which would depress me more - that someone would tell such a bald-face lie, or that someone would actually buy an entire copy of another game just so they could do intentionally poorly.
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Jan 18, 2017 02:24
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Olive Branch posted:I'm guessing "Smurfing" means veteran players buying a new account and playing from scratch all over again? Man, some people have more money than sense. Player level is not indicative of skill. [edit] Typically players get smurf accounts because they want an account to just mess around in, i.e., play/practice with heroes they normally wouldn't play in comp or QP, play with friends instead of their regular team, etc. It's a spare account to use so as not to impact the one they use for scrims, or has high SR/in top 500 or whatever. Ask Blinky in the tryhard thread why he has them if you want, he's goon who is a former top 500 player (I think) that has a few smurf accounts. teagone fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 02:33
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Bleck posted:Had a guy in a comp game try to convince me that his poor performance as Widowmaker wasn't indicative of his actual skill level, as this was an alt account, and that his actual rating was near 4000. Yeah I've had that happen before. The "I'm actually Grandmaster rank on my main account" gambit and it's like buddy, you're queuing with me, no you ain't.
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Jan 18, 2017 02:46
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To be fair, if you really suck at Widowmaker (or any other class) but still find them fun and want to play them, getting an alt where you slampick that class and play nothing else isn't a bad idea. You'll end up at an SR appropriate for your skill at that particular class and have fun games. I don't know why you'd feel the need to defend yourself by saying that your main is in GM, though. Like, the only time you actually say that is if it's not true, but you're trying to convince yourself.
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Jan 18, 2017 03:22
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Jabor posted:To be fair, if you really suck at Widowmaker (or any other class) but still find them fun and want to play them, getting an alt where you slampick that class and play nothing else isn't a bad idea. You'll end up at an SR appropriate for your skill at that particular class and have fun games. But arcade mode
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Jan 18, 2017 03:43
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Kai Tave posted:Conversely almost every argument that a video game's matchmaking is broken seems to be founded on nothing more substantial than "god my teammates are such idiots, this matchmaking must not work." It's not possible to be good enough to carry an entire game 1v6, and as such it seems especially unlikely that one's own ranking cannot possibly be influenced by their team's performance. I'm a gold player, I'm definitely pretty average - and while I try to keep my perspective focused on what I could do to play better, it doesn't change the fact that there are still games that I at the very least occasionally lose because some chucklefuck decided offensive, 10% accuracy Widowmaker would be a good idea. And I'll still lose a big chunk of points for that, because the rating system thinks that I could have carried them, somehow, if I were good enough. I don't know, it's just frustrating, you know?
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Jan 18, 2017 03:46
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If Iddqd's stream is anything to go by, it is 100% possible to solo carry a game if you're good enough. He lost twice in his 6 hour steam, mostly because he handicapped himself too much.
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Jan 18, 2017 03:50
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berenzen posted:If Iddqd's stream is anything to go by, it is 100% possible to solo carry a game if you're good enough. He lost twice in his 6 hour steam, mostly because he handicapped himself too much. this only applies if you're actually 3000+ sr lower than your actual rating
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Jan 18, 2017 03:54
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Bleck posted:I don't know, it's just frustrating, you know? How many SR do you think you've gained because of one these chucklefucks on the opposing team making it an easy game for you?
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Jan 18, 2017 03:57
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Bleck posted:And I'll still lose a big chunk of points for that, because the rating system thinks that I could have carried them, somehow, if I were good enough. You don't lose a big chunk of points for it unless it's your 5-10th loss in a row. And it doesn't even matter because if losing that big chunk takes you way below where you should be, you'll just easily win a few and get that chunk back.
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Jan 18, 2017 04:06
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Kerrrrrrr posted:this only applies if you're actually 3000+ sr lower than your actual rating Yeah, if everyone on both teams is much worse than you, then you can absolutely carry a victory, no question. On the other hand, If your teammates are worse than you but your opponents aren't, that's the kind of match you can't necessarily expect to flip (not to imply that this is super common; it will occasionally happen by chance, but only near your correct SR).
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Jan 18, 2017 04:12
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Stream came off kinda jerky because you can't possibly have the lack of awareness that one of the biggest games on the planet has people of vastly different skill levels. As far as using extremely good players saying "hey i can beat people significantly worse than me on my own and people of closer skill levels with good teams" sounds exactly like what the players who are complaining about their ranks are trying to say. typically I feel like its usually a player who started gold/platinum, played a good number of matches successfully, got ranked down lower and have had a harder time on most teams and constantly fluctuate of the borderline of where they participated well and where they aren't currently enjoying their games/ are having a harder time communicating skills and team techniques they were able to execute at the rank they were at before. I don't think I've seen a bronze adamantly insist they were grand master.
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Jan 18, 2017 04:15
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Overall while the games in it's 3rd season, it has had a humongous influx of new players during it's sales, high reviews, holiday season, game of the year talks. i don't think it's uncommon to see players who just jumped into ranked when it was available and not quite know what their doing making the lower ranks that people commonly placed at rockier than usual. Anywho I usually don't even touch competitive or ranking based things in games because people get really pissy and don't enjoy playing as much because of numbers that don't mean poo poo. (like I'll generally never touch ranked in most fighters, but I will admit it's because I prefer longer sets vs same person) i only do it here because quickplay is usually... something. to say it nicely, but can be fun when I have time.
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Jan 18, 2017 04:19
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Jeza posted:Actually for a solo player that winrate is extremely high. Any moderately good matchmaking system will narrow you down to like 50-51% eventually. If your winrate is 55%, you're going up. In fact, any winrate over 50% should raise you up. Over the past week my winrate is 58%, mainly soloqueue. This has been enough to raise me by 500SR. I imagine that it'll even out over the next 100 or so games.
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Jan 18, 2017 04:32
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Bleck posted:It's not possible to be good enough to carry an entire game 1v6, and as such it seems especially unlikely that one's own ranking cannot possibly be influenced by their team's performance. There are probably games you've occasionally won for the same reasons though, because someone on the enemy team was dinking around or had a long day and was tired and not firing on all cylinders or whatever. Like I'm sympathetic that it sucks to lose, but whatever dumb obfuscatory numbers they've put in front of it the Overwatch matchmaker seems to roughly work, people that are better at the game climb higher and people who aren't as good don't, and nobody's really put forth a convincing argument in favor of the "my idiot teammates are the quicksand sucking me down to where I don't belong" theory. If you're definitely pretty average than I dunno man, it does in fact sound like you might be at the rank you belong. The occasional game that goes to poo poo because the Widowmaker on your team got back from getting their eyes dilated and is squinting at the screen should, if you're actually meant for higher ranks, be vastly outweighed by games where nothing all that special is going on in either team either way.
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Jan 18, 2017 05:00
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Rick posted:Do high level widows actually do that? Since the Widow buff, most 3.5k+ Widows have returned to doing this. If they don't get you with the headshot, they usually get you with the follow-up because the charge time on her rifle is negligible now. It's infuriating if your hitscan doesn't respond to her either because she generally becomes untouchable.
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Jan 18, 2017 05:37
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lovely games that swing wildly in favor of one team exist and streaks exist. Outliers exist and you get really bad streaks of bad games for what seems like a long time, and that feels bad. There's nothing wrong with that in an technical sense; that's how it goes. Assuming you play enough games, you'll get to where you're supposed to be. Not everybody plays "enough" and then the matchmaker tries to comoensate, and people sometimes ends up at ratings they don't deserve. That's also how it goes. "Elo hell" is a varying state and state of mind that combines hitting that wall where the matchmaker is actually working as intended when you believe you should be (and, in some cases, have been) better, and/or ending up on a losing streak with multiple bad matches you learn nothing from. This is especially tough for people who rode a win streak to a higher SR than they should be at, take a break from the game, then return a month or two later and end up getting crushed as the matchmaker swings them around. There's nothing technically nor statistically wrong with the matchmaker in these cases, but I understand the psychological lows.
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Jan 18, 2017 05:45
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I think people constantly saying "where you belong" is weirder because even when you're losing games, even if you're pissed off you typically learn something and slowly improve.* Especially since the advice seems to be, play more games. Ideally I guess.* But observation here not experience. Today for example I just played 2 random character matches and got bored of the game.
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Jan 18, 2017 09:19
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Bleck posted:It's not possible to be good enough to carry an entire game 1v6, If you play a not-tiny sample size of games, you will win easily because the enemy team is lovely just as often as you lose because of lovely teammates-so the deciding factor becomes games where the teams are fairly balanced so your individual skill becomes the deciding factor. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 10:01
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SectumSempra posted:I think people constantly saying "where you belong" is weirder because even when you're losing games, even if you're pissed off you typically learn something and slowly improve.* As dumb as it sounds, learning things is a learned skill. It takes most people actual conscious effort to step back and objectively assess their own missteps and it's not that they can't ever improve or learn things on their own but a lot of the time the perfectly understandable impulse is to blame your dumb, lovely teammates, the slampick Hanzo, or the matchmaker for throwing you against a team of good, coordinated players, some of whom are probably smurfing instead of going "actually I probably did some real dumb poo poo here, I wonder how I can fix that." Basically very few people enjoy admitting that maybe they aren't as good at a thing as they imagine themselves to be. And, I mean, if you do consciously work on improving your play, your aim and positioning and when to use your ult and when to pull back and regroup and all that good stuff, and your play does improve, then you should indeed rise to where you belong which is somewhere higher than you used to be, until you hit the next ceiling you need to work on to break through.
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Jan 18, 2017 10:30
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And there are actually two kinds of skill at work, stuff like positioning, picking counters, knowing the map and actually doing objectives vs aim/clicking heads. Personally I just do arcade and am having fun not caring about statistics. Did placement matches for reward points only though and was plat last session, gold now. Feel alright with this as i can't aim for poo poo.
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Jan 18, 2017 13:57
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Part of the problem with SR is that people expect that when they hit their true MMR, they just get to a point where you alternate wins and losses so your MMR remains basically static. But in reality it tends to oscillate wildly by 250 points if not more, so you're either on a horrible losing streak or stomping your way back up. This is what I enjoy least about the matchmaking. I have no problem with 'belonging' somewhere in mid Plat, but losing 4 games in a row is never, ever fun, and it's frustrating when these streaks tend to happen in a way thats unconnected to how well you're playing.
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Jan 18, 2017 14:34
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Cicadalek posted:Part of the problem with SR is that people expect that when they hit their true MMR, they just get to a point where you alternate wins and losses so your MMR remains basically static. But in reality it tends to oscillate wildly by 250 points if not more, so you're either on a horrible losing streak or stomping your way back up. This is what I enjoy least about the matchmaking. I have no problem with 'belonging' somewhere in mid Plat, but losing 4 games in a row is never, ever fun, and it's frustrating when these streaks tend to happen in a way thats unconnected to how well you're playing. Okay, but assuming you're playing at roughly your correct SR then there is really nothing to be done about that right? Keeping in mind that the matchmaker isn't trying to give you a perfect 50-50 w/l ratio, sometimes you're just gonna lose four games in a row.
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Jan 18, 2017 14:59
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I don't know! I just wish it didn't happen. It's definitely not an easy problem to solve.
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Jan 18, 2017 15:06
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There's also the question of a pool's fidelity. A mid-level plat player at 3 AM PST is a different animal to a mid-level plat player at noon on a Saturday. Throw in people having bad games, carrying baggage of bad games with them, playing off-heroes, pairing with someone that deviates from their skill level by ~500 SR, etc. you begin to see how much variance exists within even a rigid skill level. The skill level disparity between people on a team may get worse because of shared roles or the matchmaker's quest to also provide reasonable queue times. Generally speaking, it's easy to wish that the matchmaker was perfect and you were getting that critically damped curve (god bless whoever posted that - MMR is like control_loop.jpg), but with the variance in skill level of the rest of the community as well as the user at the helm, it's constantly hitting a moving target.
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Jan 18, 2017 16:31
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Even if it was possible to make a perfectly balanced matchmaker people would still complain about "forced 50% winrate". I'm pretty sure there's no situation possible where people wouldn't complain about matchmaking, especially in team games.
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Jan 18, 2017 16:36
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Cicadalek posted:I don't know! I just wish it didn't happen. It's definitely not an easy problem to solve. When you start to look for games where you get carried they come along as often as you get sand bagged. Time for the old "you will win 10% of games even if you did nothing and lose 10% with no real way to stop it, you earn your rank in the other 80%" or however it goes.
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Jan 18, 2017 17:03
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