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The common masc4masc attitude of "I'm not one of those kind of gays" is pretty much textbook toxic masculinity and is predicated on the denigration of the feminine. They may not have explicitly said it, but any discussion of self-loathing or failing to identify as gay or bisexual pretty much has to explore the reason why people feel that way.
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Jan 18, 2017 18:56
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Quorum posted:This goes all the way back to Kinsey as I recall, he noted a wide variation in how much "has sex with dudes" affected guys' self image and idea of themselves. He was also admittedly doing it in the 60s when that attitude would have been even more prevalent due to even more homophobia and a lot of places where homosexuality was outright banned.
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Jan 18, 2017 18:59
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I'd at least be leery of assigning that belief personally to the person in question, as I would be, and frankly am infinitely more concerned that whatever my own views might be, others may not be so considerate. It's why I like being able to hide without effort.
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Jan 18, 2017 18:59
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:The common masc4masc attitude of "I'm not one of those kind of gays" is pretty much textbook toxic masculinity and is predicated on the denigration of the feminine. They may not have explicitly said it, but any discussion of self-loathing or failing to identify as gay or bisexual pretty much has to explore the reason why people feel that way. I think its a big part, as I said, from personal experience, there always seemed to be a lot of internal headgames being played that they weren't "gay" because being "gay" automatically meant that a whole set of other things also had to be true about them. That's to say nothing of social pressures about admitting you're gay, which I think you have to personalize before you can really come to terms with talking about it to anyone else.
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Jan 18, 2017 19:06
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Quorum posted:Ouch, settle down there bucko, I don't know how you got "I hate women" from them there posts. It was directed at previously mentioned closet bros, not Owlfanicier. Owlfancier is merely really, really concerned about men's angst and anxieties in a way that often comes at the expense of other groups.
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Jan 18, 2017 19:24
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MaxxBot posted:There seems to be an increasingly prevalent trend of "progressive" writers singling out and disparaging white gay men in a way that they would never talk about any other minority group in any context. Pretty much nothing in these articles is backed up be even a single shred of factual evidence, the writer just seems to be blaming all sorts of social problems on white gay men because their level of privilege makes it acceptable to do so. It's because progressive writers these days live in a privileged ivory tower completely disconnected from most people, so "gay people" to them are what they read in the news, and what they read in the news is that gay marriage passed so homophobia is over, and Milo is a dipshit so gay men are actually the worst. The problem is less people complaining about gay white men, it's that, unconsciously, homosexuals doesn't register as a minority group at all to them anymore. Its similar to the strain of idiocy that surfaced after Obama was elected. Like, read this guy's profile: "I am a currently a student at Wesleyan University, where I am majoring in English. I have worked as an editor for the University's official newspaper, the Argus, where I have written about music, film, literature, politics, and culture. You can find me at your local Starbucks, patting myself on the back for a tweet I'll most likely regret in the future." This dude would turn into a sex-hating conservative after five minutes in a leather bar lmao
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Jan 18, 2017 19:47
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Control Volume posted:It's because progressive writers these days live in a privileged ivory tower completely disconnected from most people, so "gay people" to them are what they read in the news, and what they read in the news is that gay marriage passed so homophobia is over, and Milo is a dipshit so gay men are actually the worst. The problem is less people complaining about gay white men, it's that, unconsciously, homosexuals doesn't register as a minority group at all to them anymore. Its similar to the strain of idiocy that surfaced after Obama was elected. White Gay Men are still White Men and have an incredible amount of privilege.
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Jan 18, 2017 19:54
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Control Volume posted:It's because progressive writers these days live in a privileged ivory tower completely disconnected from most people, so "gay people" to them are what they read in the news, and what they read in the news is that gay marriage passed so homophobia is over, and Milo is a dipshit so gay men are actually the worst. The problem is less people complaining about gay white men, it's that, unconsciously, homosexuals doesn't register as a minority group at all to them anymore. Its similar to the strain of idiocy that surfaced after Obama was elected. poo poo, you see that attitude plenty here on these forums! Don't point out the privilege bisexuals have, though, that's over the line.
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Jan 18, 2017 19:56
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:White Gay Men are still White Men and have an incredible amount of privilege.
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Jan 18, 2017 20:02
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:White Gay Men are still White Men and have an incredible amount of privilege. The prevailing attitude is that they have the same amount of privilege as white straight men
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Jan 18, 2017 20:04
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Guavanaut posted:But the people who are using attacks on them as an acceptable veil for their homophobia are still doing harm to all gay people, not just the white cis masc ones. Right but I think it's naive to ignore the intersectional issues within the gay community and trying to cast it as "progressive, ivory tower academic writers" is unhelpful. Control Volume posted:The prevailing attitude is that they have the same amount of privilege as white straight men I don't think that's really accurate, but they (we) do have an incredible cache of privilege, which plays out within the community itself. Admitting that privilege exists doesn't invalidate our status as minorities, but we absolutely need to be conscious of it. So as a white gay man, I have a lot more social capital than a black gay man who faces racial prejudice both from society at large and within the gay community itself. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 20:05
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I worked with someone who was a dude who "preferred the company of men" but would also settle for drag queens or pre-op transgender woman (made some creepy drunk text passes at me even though I'm married). Fantastic guy otherwise, scout leader, great dad (he was divorced and had full custody), very good at his job. But he still considered himself straight, not bi and definitely not gay, nope, not gay or homosexual at all because, "ew, really? No way. I just like to have sex with people with penises and I also have a penis. That's completely different." So like, maybe he thought it was a fetish? Not actually a sexual preference? I don't know I lost touch with him after he left the company a couple of years ago. He lives in Ft Worth, TX.
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Jan 18, 2017 20:11
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I don't think that's really accurate, but they (we) do have an incredible cache of privilege, which plays out within the community itself. That's not the issue here, dude. Straight white women have an incredible cache of privilege too, but you don't see thinkpiece writers talking about "the toxic delusion of white feminism" because paula deen said friend of the family. The gay community has problems, but it's not going to be solved by someone who pisses more privilege than the community he's talking about waxing about how poo poo that community is.
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Jan 18, 2017 20:15
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Right but I think it's naive to ignore the intersectional issues within the gay community Except nobody is doing this, really. The question is why are gay men (and white gay men in particular) the only minority group where the bad behavior of a few individuals is used to blanket and denigrate the rest of the community? Are Caitlyn Jenner's actions representative of the entire trans community? Does Tila Tequila represent the entire bisexual community? Do Ben Carson or Allen West represent the entirety of the black community? Does Phyllis Schlafly represent all women? Of course not and you would (rightly) be ridiculed if you made that claim. Yet that's what these think piece writers are doing to the gay community.
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Jan 18, 2017 20:15
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Control Volume posted:That's not the issue here, dude. Straight white women have an incredible cache of privilege too, but you don't see thinkpiece writers talking about "the toxic delusion of white feminism" because paula deen said friend of the family. The gay community has problems, but it's not going to be solved by someone who pisses more privilege than the community he's talking about waxing about how poo poo that community is. There have been a whole lot of think pieces written about Lena Dunham! Not to mention actual think pieces of about toxicity of white feminism. Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Except nobody is doing this, really. The question is why are gay men (and white gay men in particular) the only minority group where the bad behavior of a few individuals is used to blanket and denigrate the rest of the community? This happens literally all the time, to virtually every minority group. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 20:17
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Progressive* thinkpieces
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Jan 18, 2017 20:18
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:There have been a whole lot of think pieces written about Lena Dunham. Ok, so why is it okay when it happens to gay men?
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Jan 18, 2017 20:19
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Of the three times I've been groped, once was a random shitbag at a convention I never saw clearly, and the other two times it was a white gay guy who felt it was okay to do because they were gay, and thus it "wasn't sexual."
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Jan 18, 2017 20:20
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Control Volume posted:Progressive* thinkpieces Never doubt Slate, Vox, Salon and Jacobin. Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Ok, so why is it okay when it happens to gay men? I didn't say it was?
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Jan 18, 2017 20:21
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I didn't say it was? What are you arguing about then lol
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Jan 18, 2017 20:22
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Control Volume posted:What are you arguing about then lol I took exception to: "The question is why are gay men (and white gay men in particular) the only minority group where the bad behavior of a few individuals is used to blanket and denigrate the rest of the community?" And to the idea, writ large, that "progressive, ivory tower academics" assume, writ large, that all gay white men are Milo.
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Jan 18, 2017 20:25
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Control Volume posted:Imagine an offensively stereotypical gay man saying "Here's some actual advice" while the editor throws in a bunch of dutch angles of the accompanying eyeroll with wooshing sounds and a narrator in the background says "looks like there's some tension between megaspel and nostalgia4infinity, but will these two make up...... or break up?" [the title GAY DRAMA slams onto the screen with a fiery thud] Stop posting in this thread please
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Jan 18, 2017 20:25
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Except nobody is doing this, really. The question is why are gay men (and white gay men in particular) the only minority group where the bad behavior of a few individuals is used to blanket and denigrate the rest of the community? But there are people who blame an entire minority population for the actions of a few, or even the theoretical actions of a few. It's just not your social circle, I'd reckon. #BLM - how many people are angry at blacks for bringing up race when clearly racism is over. Calling BLM a terrorist group. Saying the insight violence against the police. "Why can't they shut and and be one of the good ones." Every time Al Sharpton opens his mouth there are a bunch of white folks saying he's riling up the black folks for no reason. They don't stop to think, "you know how I can listen to someone and hear what they say and then disagree and not do what they say? Guess what! black people can do that too! They're people just like us!" Trump's immigration policy blames every single immigrant for issues that aren't even real. And, yes, the trans community gets poo poo on because some cis dude pretended to be trans to gain access to a women's only space and then tell everyone all the horrible things he could have done if he was really trans. gently caress, women are still blamed for getting pregnant, told they have to deal with the consequences but it takes two people to make a baby. Women's sexuality is much more highly scrutinized than a mans. And, since I'm transgender I saw this, Caitlyn Jenner was looked upon as a voice for the trans community. She didn't want that job and was surprised when it happened, but it did. Thankfully, she's shifted out of the limelight, but yes, people looked to her to know what trans people are like. That seems to be Laverne Cox's job now and she's happy to have it. The only group I know that gets a pass, where one does not equal all, is straight, white, cisgender, men who are the right kind of Christian. And that's because of the stranglehold old school religion has on our government.
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Jan 18, 2017 20:26
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:And to the idea, writ large, that "progressive, ivory tower academics" assume, writ large, that all gay white men are Milo. My assertion was that progressive, ivory tower academics are out of touch and aren't connected at all with the gay community beyond what they read on twitter and from other thinkpieces, and what they see is Milo. Saying white gay men have privilege is oblique to what these writers are saying. Yeah no poo poo white gay men have privilege. But here's a quote from the article linked: "...scores of white gay men happily positioned themselves alongside Trump and other conservatives, engaging in the same sort of bigoted rhetoric of which they themselves had once been (and would continue to be) the subject all so conservatives would for once act as though the lives of LGBTQ Americans were important to their agenda." Aside from trying to smear the problems of the gay community as emblematic of the gay community, I've seen a lot of the sentiment that discrimination against white gay men no longer exists at all. I'm sick of it coming from the left.
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Jan 18, 2017 20:37
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Again, this criticism is brought up constantly among women, POC, and trans folk in the queer community and if some college kid regurgitating that stuff into a huffpo article is the first you've ever come across it, then that really speaks to the problem. White male privilege among gay men is not a new subject, but you all sound like you've been blindsided and are scrambling to discredit it by reframing it as gay bashing from non-queers.
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Jan 18, 2017 20:42
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I took exception to: "The question is why are gay men (and white gay men in particular) the only minority group where the bad behavior of a few individuals is used to blanket and denigrate the rest of the community?" I misspoke (typed?) but my point remains roughly aligned Control Volume's that it has some become acceptable for "progressives" to denigrate gay men specifically based on the actions of a few members of the community. This standard is (correctly) not held to other minority groups.
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Jan 18, 2017 20:46
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:I misspoke (typed?) but my point remains roughly aligned Control Volume's that it has some become acceptable for "progressives" to denigrate gay men specifically based on the actions of a few members of the community. This standard is (correctly) not held to other minority groups. Let me use the same logic you are using only going the other way. I haven't seen nor have a read what you are talking about, therefore it does not exist and you are wrong. Gay men are not being singled out at all by so-called progressives. Maybe use different news sources?
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Jan 18, 2017 20:48
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there wolf posted:Again, this criticism is brought up constantly among women, POC, and trans folk in the queer community and if some college kid regurgitating that stuff into a huffpo article is the first you've ever come across it, then that really speaks to the problem. White male privilege among gay men is not a new subject, but you all sound like you've been blindsided and are scrambling to discredit it by reframing it as gay bashing from non-queers. There are problems, problems that I have personally seen and take steps against when I'm out, but there's a world of difference between someone saying "These are the problems with the gay community" and "This IS the gay community."
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Jan 18, 2017 20:49
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Control Volume posted:There are problems, problems that I have personally seen and take steps against when I'm out, but there's a world of difference between someone saying "These are the problems with the gay community" and "This IS the gay community." Again, I haven't seen or experienced this so it does not exist.
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Jan 18, 2017 20:50
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Aleph Null posted:Again, I haven't seen or experienced this so it does not exist. 
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Jan 18, 2017 20:53
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Except nobody is doing this, really. The question is why are gay men (and white gay men in particular) the only minority group where the bad behavior of a few individuals is used to blanket and denigrate the rest of the community? Gay white males did not invent the concept of bigoted cherry-picking, no. Every single minority group in the world has had the actions of one individual stereotyped to the group itself, and I'm baffled that this even needs to be stated. The important follow-up is that this facet of discrimination against gay white males is not somehow discounted because other minority groups share that problem. Bigotry does not have to be particularly unique to be important, and likewise, some of the worst bigotry finds power in how mundane it can become.
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Jan 18, 2017 20:53
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Control Volume posted:Not arguing the first point since I didn't make it and I don't really agree with it. Nostalgia4Infinity posted:I misspoke (typed?) but my point remains roughly aligned Control Volume's that it has some become acceptable for "progressives" to denigrate gay men specifically based on the actions of a few members of the community. This standard is (correctly) not held to other minority groups. I don't think that's nearly as prevalent as either of you are imagining, and the article itself is pretty pointedly referring to LGBTQ conservatives who are, essentially "gently caress you got mine," now. Going further, the author is a student, not some "ivory tower academic, disconnected from gay people." He's making an argument for intersectional awareness.
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Jan 18, 2017 20:56
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I'm making their point. If they don't personally know about it, then it doesn't exist. It's not possible that they are, perhaps, hyper-attuned to public attitudes of gay men and not so much about say, transgender women of color? So, they see what they look for. Confirmation Bias, basically. I'm not a gay man so I don't really care about how gay men are perceived so I don't look for it or notice it, therefore, in my perception of reality, it does not exist. Only it does. I'm just blind to it, like a white gay man might be blind to attitudes of people who aren't like them.
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Jan 18, 2017 20:56
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https://www.google.com/search?q=gay+men+hate https://www.google.com/search?q=gay+women+hate https://www.google.com/search?q=transgender+men+hate https://www.google.com/search?q=transgender+women+hate There's a significant difference in tone in these searches!
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Jan 18, 2017 21:11
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Somehow, you've managed to turn a thread about QUILTBAG into literal, unironic, "no, it is the white man who is oppressed!" I'm stunned.
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Jan 18, 2017 21:15
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Control Volume posted:https://www.google.com/search?q=gay+men+hate Oh good lord
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Jan 18, 2017 21:15
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Control Volume posted:There are problems, problems that I have personally seen and take steps against when I'm out, but there's a world of difference between someone saying "These are the problems with the gay community" and "This IS the gay community." How do you read an article specifically about white gay men and come to the conclusion it's about the whole community? I'm sorry someone compared you to Milo and it hurt your feelings, but you haven't given any indication that the FYGM attitude Milo represents isn't a problem among white gay men. And either being ignorant of or ignoring that this exact same criticism has been coming from the other letters in the acronym for years now isn't helping.
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Jan 18, 2017 21:32
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Control Volume posted:https://www.google.com/search?q=gay+men+hate Let me be like you. I don't care because transgender women are still being murdered for just being transgender. There were two transgender woman murdered in the first week of 2017, alone. there wolf posted:How do you read an article specifically about white gay men and come to the conclusion it's about the whole community? Oh my God. I didn't even see this before. So he thinks of White Gay Men as the entire LGBT community and doesn't understand his own Confirmation Bias? Wow.
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Jan 18, 2017 21:42
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This double-irony battle is very hard to follow...
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Jan 18, 2017 21:55
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Please don't play oppression Olympics, no one wins that competition.
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