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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMu933zyY7c&t=24s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kyWDhB_QeI&t=126s
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Jan 19, 2017 04:56
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I've never served so I don't have any standing to criticize an individual soldier's choices. I stick to criticizing the choices at the top, as all civilians should. An enlisted person rarely has any choice in what their service leads them to do anyway. Let any debates about the moral imperative of disobeying orders fall to people who've been there. It's not my place, and it doesn't support the veterans whose moral issues are complex and harmed enough by the ill-informed judgment of bystanders.
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Jan 19, 2017 04:59
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The line is called Niggas got to eat. My dad was a State Trooper in Alabama for 20 years. The same Alabama State Troopers who turned the dogs and the water hoses on black folks through the Civil Rights movement. It was either take a job like that and take care of his family, or work in a mill or a factory and live a destitute life. Questioning why some young POC take jobs in institutions like that is the thing bougie rear end white folks do to try to create some kind of liberal purity test, because their privilege has allowed them to live a relative life of comfort. The struggle for black folks is not just some kind of slogan nor is it just against systematic racism, its against economics as well. If the government says it will put little brothers and sisters in college for gassing up fuel tanks or shooting terrorist, or if it means patrolling the streets of south Alabama for an organization with a history of heavy handed policing and discrimination, then it is what it is. Fighting oppression is hard enough when black, we shouldn't have to do it being as poor as possible, too. Edit: Let me further elaborate. White people cannot sit there and create a hosed up capitalist society and expect POC to not try to benefit from it because it fucks with their liberal sensibilities. Fluffdaddy fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 05:19
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Fluffdaddy posted:Edit: Let me further elaborate. White people cannot sit there and create a hosed up capitalist society and expect POC to not try to benefit from it because it fucks with their liberal sensibilities.
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Jan 19, 2017 05:39
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R. Mute posted:Which is why I'm asking your opinion and not just storming in with my own - my opinion is p. irrelevant and I'm not interested in it in this discussion, but I would like to know how PoC or any other oppressed group look at the issue and what their reasoning is. So forget about white liberal sensibilities, just for the moment. This thread is about black sensibilities. And my response is the same. We gotta eat. We didn't create the system but we have to live in it while simultaneously fighting it. Economic opportunity is difficult to find for black folks, so we take what we can get, even if it means being a part of a hosed up system.
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Jan 19, 2017 05:42
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R. Mute posted:Thanks for the answer. I feel like I focused too much on the military - it's what brought the question to my mind. But I was angling for your opinion on the more abstract front, if that makes sense. I personally sympathise with the 'Erst kommt das Fressen' argument, but I feel that when it comes at the cost of other oppressed groups/individuals or actively harming other people, following that line would lead to too much of a dog eat dog type of climate. But I find it hard to draw a clear line there, if there even is a clear line. Well, but perspective's important here, IMO. An inner city kid signing up for a couple years so he or she can go to college, and spending that time in the Green Zone or trying not to get blown up at a roadside checkpoint, isn't creating as much oppression or harming people as much as people way higher up on the food chain. That's where the responsibility lays for poo poo like drone strikes, bombing MSF hospitals, actually invading a country in the first place, etc. Individually, there's not much that a single enlisted person is going to do to (further) destabilize or oppress a region. Majorian fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 05:43
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Fluffdaddy posted:And my response is the same. We gotta eat. We didn't create the system but we have to live in it while simultaneously fighting it. Economic opportunity is difficult to find for black folks, so we take what we can get, even if it means being a part of a hosed up system. From your family's experience, how much does trying to make it better from the inside count for, is it even possible, or is it just keeping your head down and surviving?
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Jan 19, 2017 05:46
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Fluffdaddy posted:Questioning why some young POC take jobs in institutions like that is the thing bougie rear end white folks do to try to create some kind of liberal purity test, because their privilege has allowed them to live a relative life of comfort. This, and it's not even limited to liberals. White people tend to buy hard into the idea that the world is a meritocracy, that hard work is always rewarded, the right person is always rewarded, the cops only arrest criminals. Because if that's the way things are, privilege can't exist.
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Jan 19, 2017 05:50
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xthetenth posted:From your family's experience, how much does trying to make it better from the inside count for, is it even possible, or is it just keeping your head down and surviving? My dad came from a family of sharecroppers. His (and mom's) working got me to college. And while I am broke as gently caress, I am not 8 kids in a one bedroom shack broke. My parents did everything they could to pull themselves out of poverty, while still suffering from institutional and personal racism. My dad in particular faced some horrible poo poo I can't even get into on the internet while being a good Peace Officer. He suffered because he didn't keep his head down and his mouth quiet.
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Jan 19, 2017 05:52
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Jonas Albrecht posted:This, and it's not even limited to liberals. White people tend to buy hard into the idea that the world is a meritocracy, that hard work is always rewarded, the right person is always rewarded, the cops only arrest criminals. Because if that's the way things are, privilege can't exist. My favorite bit about belief in meritocracy is that when white people are confronted with statistics showing that Asian-American college applicants have higher test scores, expressed belief in meritocratic admissions goes down. As if it's only useful when people can use it to rationalize why white people are on top.
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Jan 19, 2017 05:56
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Tarezax posted:My favorite bit about belief in meritocracy is that when white people are confronted with statistics showing that Asian-American college applicants have higher test scores, expressed belief in meritocratic admissions goes down. As if it's only useful when people can use it to rationalize why white people are on top. That's when they bring up something about Standardize testing and how college qualifications should be more than that. Then you point out that schools used that argument in court when they were busted allowing less qualified men in to maintain the gender ratio, and they refuse to believe it could be true.
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Jan 19, 2017 06:07
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Tarezax posted:My favorite bit about belief in meritocracy is that when white people are confronted with statistics showing that Asian-American college applicants have higher test scores, expressed belief in meritocratic admissions goes down. As if it's only useful when people can use it to rationalize why white people are on top. While this is true, every other time it got brought up in this thread this magically became Asiantown for several pages. Don't let that happen again.
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Jan 19, 2017 06:49
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:While this is true, every other time it got brought up in this thread this magically became Asiantown for several pages. Don't let that happen again. Fair enough. I'd love a thread for Asian minority issues but I don't think I'm qualified enough to write a good OP for one 
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Jan 19, 2017 07:19
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I am about to ask some potentially stupid questions, so first I'd like to say I am only asking out of a genuine desire to learn, and that I realise you don't have any obligation to answer me. I also realise you guys are wary of some white dude barging in here asking a bunch of dumb questions, so if you tell me to shut up I will go drop this, no questions asked. I was having a discussion with a friend about US politics, and he believes the problems that PoC face are more due to class/poverty/economic issues than outright racism. When I talk about police killings he counters that some of those officers were black. About BLM he says that violent riots are wrong, and that black on black violence is a bigger issue for the black communities anyway. So clearly he's an ignorant fucker. What I would like to ask you guys are this: Are there any statistics on police killings? How many do they shoot that are white vs black? How more likely is it to be shot if you're black? How many of the officers involved in these types of execution like shootings are black? I suspect that the statistics skew heavily towards white cops doing most the shooting, but I would like some proof to back me up. What is the proper response to "but black cops shoot black people too"? This one in particular bothers me, because there's this implicit suggestion that black people are so terrible even other black people hate black people. Moving away from the police subject, I also would be interested to know if BLM have actually been the cause of any violent riots, or if this is just the all lives matter idiots attributing poo poo to BLM that they did not actually do. And finally, has there been a surge in racist hatecrimes since cheeto benito got elected? Any hard numbers I can point to? Again,sorry if I am out of line. I just feel that the better educated I am on this the more of these bullshit talking points I can refute.
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Jan 19, 2017 11:07
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BLM has not "violently rioted" , despite how much Fox news et al wishes that were true. For the surge in hate crimes check out the SPLC.
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Jan 19, 2017 11:29
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AggressivelyStupid posted:For the surge in hate crimes check out the SPLC. Specifically, use the search function here: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/hate-incidents EDIT: Fair warning, if you're easily depressed when you start looking into just how hosed up things are, you're in for a bad day.
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Jan 19, 2017 13:11
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Tarezax posted:My favorite bit about belief in meritocracy is that when white people are confronted with statistics showing that Asian-American college applicants have higher test scores, expressed belief in meritocratic admissions goes down. As if it's only useful when people can use it to rationalize why white people are on top. Meritocracy isn't even a good system in my opinion. Everyone wants to believe that people deserve what they get, that if you work hard at some poo poo you'll be rewarded. Not only is that not actually what happens, but people are better at different things. There are three lotteries going on here. There's a genetic lottery, where some people are good at one thing but not another. I for one absolutely SUCK at remembering details in context hearing something just the one time. I am great at understanding conceptual poo poo, but I have my weaknesses just like everyone else does. Then there's the lottery of the circumstances of your life, which is to say while everyone is equally deserving of a life worth living, not everyone is born into a life of opportunity, which ties into the last lottery, which is job opportunities. Not everyone's job is going to be perfect for them. Great success in our society goes to those who have talents that suit the job they have, that had opportunities for a job that's good for their talents, and that pursue and win the best opportunity to suit them. I don't believe that there's any trend between race and genetics that would say X race is better at this than that. That's ridiculous. But there is absolutely a correlation between race and how much opportunity you have, and for black people especially, people try to pidgeonhole others into what they think someone will be good at, which affects their chances of scoring a good opportunity. Studies show that if you have a "black-sounding" name you're less likely to get your resume picked up, which is some bullshit. Opportunities are NOT the same across the board, so your chance of pulling out the trifecta of having the opportunities, selecting and winning a good one (if it's even an option), and being talented at that good job, is exceedingly rare. So why the gently caress should it be the case that some people are more likely to have a good job that they're good at than others, but we all deserve what we get? I don't buy it. And to top it off, the prevailing stereotype for black people is that they're "athletic" yet they wanna disparage black athletes. gently caress. That.
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Jan 19, 2017 13:14
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Majorian posted:Well, but perspective's important here, IMO. An inner city kid signing up for a couple years so he or she can go to college, and spending that time in the Green Zone or trying not to get blown up at a roadside checkpoint, isn't creating as much oppression or harming people as much as people way higher up on the food chain. That's where the responsibility lays for poo poo like drone strikes, bombing MSF hospitals, actually invading a country in the first place, etc. Individually, there's not much that a single enlisted person is going to do to (further) destabilize or oppress a region. This is the main point. I work for the military as a civilian, and have huge misgivings about how they are used. But I also understand they are the only jobs program we have in the US on a large scale right now, so I can't get even a little angry with the kids being put on the front lines-- with the obvious exception of the ones that commit war crimes, torture, etc. But during GWII, the worst of that stuff was committed by contractors, or was done far away from the front lines by older and better educated people that really knew better. And of course the people making the decisions are old white guys outside the military, many of which simply don't care about the young people affected by their decisions. Placing the blame on the kid in the front line is exactly what is wanted, because of course elected figures shouldn't be held accountable for the horrible things they order. rkajdi fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 13:31
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Tarezax posted:Fair enough. I'd love a thread for Asian minority issues but I don't think I'm qualified enough to write a good OP for one Then make a bad OP and ask the people who post in the thread for help. You can go back and edit the thing to spruce it up from time to time as you get good input for it. In other words 
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Jan 19, 2017 13:52
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I think this is still a decent source for data on police shootings and breaks down shooting rates by ethnicity and region: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database
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Jan 19, 2017 14:34
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The 'Do Military for College' program is horrific and even being just neutral on its existence is not good enough. I'm not talking about overseas warcrimes at all though. On an individual level I would encourage someone thinking of doing college this way to absolutely exhaust all possibilities of other funding, through loans, working for a few years in two shithouse jobs, loving anything. As an institution, its inherently violent to those joining. They strip you of free will, grind you down, make you feel worthless at every possible turn. The incredible amount of verbal abuse would make Limbaugh blush. It really cannot be understated. If you want someone to have a good life, succeed in life, you would not want them subjected to this program. On top of this, as long as the program exists, a reasonable jobs program and easier college scholarships/funding will be intentionally interfered with by people who want a continuous pool of recruits. I think the elimination of this can be approached both ways; aiming at the top, those people who legislate these things, and at a local level, steering people away from joining and creating local programs to help with jobs and college that can replace this. My SO is in the reserves, she joined for college. I wish she had done it any other way. The amount of horrific poo poo she puts up with is unbelievable. She mentally withdraws from the world a few days before and after training which happens monthly, then there is the big 2 week thing in the summer. 30-40% of her life is just sucked up and gone due to this. It also interferes heavily with her career. Never can join her team on international business trips because of the training. Negotiating wages or changing jobs is really difficult because of the outside time commitment. Don't forget the yearly physical injuries... The program is a vampire. It promises upward mobility but it just stamps you back down again. Its enraging when things like school of choice is getting ripped out and the people doing the ripping point to the army as an established path out of poverty. gently caress them and gently caress people who think its enough.
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Jan 19, 2017 16:16
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1. This isn't the thread for it. 2. Yeah man, get into a lifetime of debt by taking out hella loans, or hope you can find two jobs even though you would probably need those two jobs to just survive, much less advance out of your current situation. You are gonna need more than a few years to pay for a loving college education. 3. You are talking about macro systemic problems which I agree is a problem, and desperately want reform to our educational system, and how people have to take on a comical amount of debt at age 18 to go to school. But on a Micro or personal level I completely understand anyone who picks the lovely position of the military, over the lovely position of paying off loans for the next 30 years. Attack the system, not the people who take part in it because of a lack of options.
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Jan 19, 2017 16:26
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Jonas Albrecht posted:This, and it's not even limited to liberals. White people tend to buy hard into the idea that the world is a meritocracy, that hard work is always rewarded, the right person is always rewarded, the cops only arrest criminals. Because if that's the way things are, privilege can't exist. This. It's all a fuckin' lie, obviously, but it's basically a cultural norm for white people to teach their kids that if they work hard and keep their chin up, good things will happen. And for white people, good poo poo generally does, so it's a self-affirming/reinforcing system. Watch this right here for some interesting statistics. https://youtu.be/jQ_0bqWKO-k?t=2m58s quote:Black men make up 6% of the population, but of all the unarmed people shot and killed by police in 2015, 40% were black men. Also to echo other posters... BLM has not rioted, nor do they advocate for riots. Fox news and the right blame them as a giant ironic tag at the bottom of a tweet whenever ANY black person does something wrong, and it's caught on to a tragically effective degree. Chilichimp fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 16:56
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Chilichimp posted:This. Even when it doesn't, for white people there's a carefully constructed and deeply ingrained parallel system of blame deflection that basically makes any object lesson that contradicts the meritocracy myth vanish in a haze of racism and otherization. That's a fundamental part of privilege too, not only are there advantages, but there's always someone to blame when said advantages don't materialize, as they increasingly fail to these days. stepping out of lurkerdom here to say thanks to all regulars and particularly Koala's March for keeping this thread legit.
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Jan 19, 2017 17:03
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Ol Standard Retard posted:Even when it doesn't, for white people there's a carefully constructed and deeply ingrained parallel system of blame deflection that basically makes any object lesson that contradicts the meritocracy myth vanish in a haze of racism and otherization. That's a fundamental part of privilege too, not only are there advantages, but there's always someone to blame when said advantages don't materialize, as they increasingly fail to these days. Word. "Hey white dude, if you're not well off... have you considered the immigrant labor stealing your jobs? Well what about those laaaaaazy black people on Welfare? Who's tax dollars do you think pay for that?" It's all super gross.
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Jan 19, 2017 17:05
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I am glad people are coming out of the woodwork to talk about the military industrial complex and it's issues but I am failing to see what most of these concerns have to do with black people or their issues.
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Jan 19, 2017 17:08
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Fluffdaddy posted:I am glad people are coming out of the woodwork to talk about the military industrial complex and it's issues but I am failing to see what most of these concerns have to do with black people or their issues. If you ignore how many black people volunteer for military service every time we go to war without receiving the same citizen benefits white people receive, sure it's not relevant, I guess.
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Jan 19, 2017 17:15
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Fluffdaddy posted:I am glad people are coming out of the woodwork to talk about the military industrial complex and it's issues but I am failing to see what most of these concerns have to do with black people or their issues. That one post was well thought, and a decent opinion that I would like to hear debated because I don't really know how to feel about all this and would like differing opinions to consider. That is why it would make a good op for a new thread.
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Jan 19, 2017 17:23
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biracial bear for uncut posted:If you ignore how many black people volunteer for military service every time we go to war without receiving the same citizen benefits white people receive, sure it's not relevant, I guess. We have gone over why they volunteer and why it's hosed up to treat them like poo poo because they made that decision. Coming in here and going "just rack up some debt and do everything else to go to college" is absurd and ignores the challenges that young black folks have finding financial aid.
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Jan 19, 2017 17:24
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Having mixed feelings towards supporting the military by black communities has history going back to WWII . Not sure where the narrative that they haven't thought about the implications of these institutions came from?
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Jan 19, 2017 17:29
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I think the Milstuff would be a good thread. That said if you aren't talking about how it impacts black folks keep it out. Iirc, Oracle traced my family back through Nat Turner's rebellion, WW1and WW2. I come from a long line of fighters 
Koalas March fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 17:34
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As a white navy dude I feel qualified to say: the black people I work with are consistently amazing and I'm glad they joined and I got to meet them, all circumstances aside And thanks for the thread. Reading this and misogynoir has been illuminating.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:03
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Koalas March posted:I think the Milstuff would be a good thread. That said if you aren't talking about how it impacts black folks keep it out.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:18
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https://mobile.twitter.com/MissRJay/status/822118954302902277
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Jan 19, 2017 18:22
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Oracle posted:Further back than that, if this drat book ever comes in. I am 75% sure you are directly descended from one of the black Revolutionary War patriots quote:(yes there were some. Yes, they got shafted when it came to pensions too. Its a story as old as the hills).
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Jan 19, 2017 18:27
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I've spoken about my grandfather ITT and his experience in trying to get the government to officially recognize his unit as having integrated the Navy during WW2. It finally happened, like, 5 years ago.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:46
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Chilichimp posted:Also to echo other posters... BLM has not rioted, nor do they advocate for riots. Fox news and the right blame them as a giant ironic tag at the bottom of a tweet whenever ANY black person does something wrong, and it's caught on to a tragically effective degree. I remember also seeing a youtube video a while back showing the difference in response between white people actually rioting after the Stanley Cup and black people protesting police shootings and it's loving disgusting.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:28
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 White Feelings claim another one. You were a great mod, KM, and you continue to be a great person.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:30
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:
what
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Jan 19, 2017 19:37
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botany posted:what Koalas March is no longer a moderator of the Debate and Discussion forum. Seeing as there have been constant tears since she was made moderator it likely has to do with that.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:38
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