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Kurzon posted:Vader gets pissed with Krennic because he compromised the secrecy of his Death Star project through carelessness (the defector and then the destruction of Jeddah City). It makes me wonder anyway just how an organization could realistically conceal a project as massive as the Death Star. I read that, during World War 2, the German scientists, such as Heisenberg and Gerlach, were astounded by the news of the Hiroshima bombing because they thought the atom bomb was an unfeasible concept (they made a mistake in their calculations and overestimated how much fissile material was needed). There is also good anecdotal intelligence that German intelligence knew little about the Manhattan Project. But the thing is that in Star Wars everything is done on a massive scale, where everything is multiplied by x100, but it still takes just one credible defector to blow the cover on something like this (and that's what happens). And the Death Star would require a MASSIVE workforce: laborers, administrators, transporters, etc. Unless of course the Death Star workforce was 95% droid, which are perhaps easier to keep quiet. Also, it's not impossible; in the early 21st century in the real world, a major world superpower managed to stage a massive attack in one of its own urban centers in order to encourage the population to support a new wave of imperial conquest, and managed to fool the majority of people despite all the evidence and testimony against them. The masses just don't want to believe that their proven-evil overlords could possibly be that evil, and the same goes for the Empire - who, let's not forget, came into power "with thunderous applause". (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 19, 2017 15:48
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Kurzon posted:Vader gets pissed with Krennic because he compromised the secrecy of his Death Star project through carelessness (the defector and then the destruction of Jeddah City). It makes me wonder anyway just how an organization could realistically conceal a project as massive as the Death Star. I read that, during World War 2, the German scientists, such as Heisenberg and Gerlach, were astounded by the news of the Hiroshima bombing because they thought the atom bomb was an unfeasible concept (they made a mistake in their calculations and overestimated how much fissile material was needed). There is also good anecdotal evidence that German intelligence knew little about the Manhattan Project. But the thing is that in Star Wars everything is done on a massive scale, where everything is multiplied by x100, but it still takes just one credible defector to blow the cover on something like this (and that's what happens). And the Death Star would require a MASSIVE workforce: laborers, administrators, transporters, etc. You can't keep hundreds of thousands of people quiet. Unless of course the Death Star workforce was 95% droid, which are perhaps easier to keep quiet. They're big into slave labor. And deep space is a massive place with tons of room to hide poo poo. We're just discovering a new planet in our own solar system! There's also the likelyhood that they were building the space station and the superweapon separate (they're installing it at the start of Rogue One). You know you're delivering steel to a big-rear end space station, but big space stations are nothing new. You don't know that it's a goddamn planet-killer until one of the scientists pulls you aside and tells you.
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Jan 19, 2017 16:20
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Also a galaxy is, like, a pretty big thing. A thing the size of a small moon, being built somewhere people aren't really going anyway, could be a secret for a long time.
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Jan 19, 2017 16:59
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Geography is not much of a factor because travel and communications in the Star Wars galaxy are very fast. All it takes is one guy slipping out a transmission or sneaking away on a ship.
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Jan 19, 2017 17:57
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The prequel book to Rogue One does a pretty good job of setting up the backstory to how the Death Star came to be and how the construction/secrecy is set up. It makes it pretty plausible how it was hidden for so long. Basically, while it did require hundreds of thousands of people actually building the thing, access to the project site was very strictly controlled so once you get shipped out and find out what you are working on you aren't coming back to populated space until it is finished or unless you happen to be very high up and they trust you (even then they are spied on). The weapon development takes place at multiple sites where the scientists at each site are only working on a small piece and don't actually know what their research is being used for. Galen thinks he is developing a power source big enough to provide energy to entire planets and it is only much later he figures out it is actually going to be used for a weapon and not a power plant.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:14
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Are we talking about the same fantastic security that prevented a smuggler, a sasquatch, and a farmboy from successfully infiltrating the Death Star?
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Jan 19, 2017 18:25
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Kurzon posted:Are we talking about the same fantastic security that prevented a smuggler, a sasquatch, and a farmboy from successfully infiltrating the Death Star? They infiltrated it? I thought they got quite forcefully invited in.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:37
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Kurzon posted:Geography is not much of a factor because travel and communications in the Star Wars galaxy are very fast. All it takes is one guy slipping out a transmission or sneaking away on a ship. Why didn't the Empire find the Rebellion instantly on Hoth or anywhere else, if all it takes is one guy slipping out a transmission or sneaking away on a ship?
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Jan 19, 2017 18:39
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TheKingofSprings posted:They infiltrated it? I thought they got quite forcefully invited in. And deliberately allowed to escape.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:39
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OK you guys are much smarter than me so I won't argue this point further.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:45
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Kurzon posted:OK you guys are much smarter than me so I won't argue this point further. Flee, Trekkie scum!!
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Jan 19, 2017 18:48
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The galaxy's kind of like a vast desert and all the planets are like cities or oases in it. Sure, you can hide out in the middle of nowhere all you like, but sooner or later someone's gonna need to go into town to pick up some snacks.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:05
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Captain Splendid posted:The galaxy's kind of like a vast desert and all the planets are like cities or oases in it.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:12
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If the first death star took 18+ years to make how did they make death star 2 in like 4?
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Jan 19, 2017 19:23
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"It's about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that's why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much." Checks out. Looking forward to the updated dialogue and ginormous mouth effect in the eventual 4K release.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:25
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UmOk posted:If the first death star took 18+ years to make how did they make death star 2 in like 4? Why do you assume they waited until the destruction of the first one to start building the second one?
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Jan 19, 2017 19:29
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UmOk posted:If the first death star took 18+ years to make how did they make death star 2 in like 4? It wasn't done
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Jan 19, 2017 19:29
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UmOk posted:If the first death star took 18+ years to make how did they make death star 2 in like 4? Streamlined production as a result of having already successfully built the thing once?
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Jan 19, 2017 19:41
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The Empire went non-union on the second one.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:48
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UmOk posted:If the first death star took 18+ years to make how did they make death star 2 in like 4? Did it take that long? Rogue One gave the impression that work started on it but it slow going because of Madds+the other scientists stalling and figuring out how to use the crystals, and then in the few years leading up to Rogue One they get real into it. Looking at the two entries for them on Wookiepedia ended up being kind of interesting. The first one has a crew of 1,200,000 people, and a massive complement of laser batteries and stuff all over it, and is pretty heavily armored. The second one has half the crew size but way more space for ships and vehicles to be stored and docked and double the lasers on it. It gives the impression that it's basically the super laser+reactor with a huge amount of empty space on the inside, like it's much more of an on auto-pilot kind of thing that has to be defended by a navy and a bunch of auto-firing turbo lasers instead of relying on a crew (a wonderful decision for something made under the reign of a person whose philosophy is that having faith in one's friends is a weakness). Like the first one was designed assuming it might actually be possible that it could be boarded by an enemy attack force while this one ditches all the extra crew/etc. that would entail dealing with that and goes for just having so many lasers on it that nothing gets close. The shorter and easier answer though is that it wasn't anywhere close to completion and Palpatine is full of poo poo when he says it's "fully armed and operational." I mean once the shield is down a star destroyer crashes into it and they fire a few shots at the reactor and the entire thing goes in like five minutes. A straight tunnel a literal freighter can fit through leads directly to the middle of the station is not a completed design given how the original Death Star worked out. On top of that, Vader seems unimpressed with their lack of progress on it when talking to that officer at the beginning of the movie, were he and the guy literally in charge of its construction not aware that it was ready? Sure the super laser is because that was the most intimidating part of the original and they know how to build that now, but the rest of it really was just a skeleton. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 19:50
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Neo Rasa posted:
It was definitely fully armed and operational. There's no reason to go off inventing convoluted explanations for why everything the movie tells us in plain language is wrong. quote:I mean once the shield is down a star destroyer crashes into it and they fire a few shots at the reactor and the entire thing goes in like five minutes. Because that's how reactor cores work in the Star Wars universe. It's a convention of the genre. You blow 'em up and it causes a huge chain reaction that blows everything else up, because of the colossal amounts of volatile energy involved. Again, there's no reason to go off inventing convoluted explanations for things like this like Rogue One felt it needed to. quote:On top of that, Vader seems unimpressed with their lack of progress on it when talking to that officer at the beginning of the movie, were he and the guy literally in charge of its construction not aware that it was ready? Sure the super laser because that was the most intimidating part of the original and they know how to build that now, but the rest of it really was just a skeleton. Vader is displeased because the station isn't operational yet at that point: quote:JERJERROD The Emperor obviously wants it to be operational in time for the trap set for the Rebels. By the time the Rebels arrive, Jerjerrod has managed to accomplish this, but the audience doesn't know this until the Emperor springs it on Luke.
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Jan 19, 2017 20:08
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I've got to say, watching politics now SMG's interpretation of Vader as the dude working with fascists who hates them and takes every opportunity to kill them is increasingly appealing. Vader 2020: Join me, and we will rule the nation as President and Voter!
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Jan 19, 2017 20:11
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Also it would be trivial to hide the Death Star Maybe less trivial to hide the resource shipments but that is a level of abstraction beyond what we should probably care about.
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Jan 19, 2017 20:11
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Cnut the Great posted:It was definitely fully armed and operational. There's no reason to go off inventing convoluted explanations for why everything the movie tells us in plain language is wrong. Palpatine, a guy who lies and manipulates people with literally every line of dialogue he has had in a series of movies spanning forty years told a lie to manipulate someone. A convoluted explanation.
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Jan 19, 2017 20:13
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I don't remember Palps lying about anything? Maybe he did.
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Jan 19, 2017 20:15
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euphronius posted:I don't remember Palps lying about anything? Do you mean in RotJ? Because he totally lied about wanting to help Anakin save Padme. Also about not being the Sith Lord behind the civil war against the government he was head of.
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Jan 19, 2017 20:17
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euphronius posted:I don't remember Palps lying about anything? This reads like those articles people are writing now where they admit they voted for Trump because they assumed he had a healthcare plan ready for after his administration destroys the ACA.
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Jan 19, 2017 20:19
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Hodgepodge posted:Do you mean in RotJ? Because he totally lied about wanting to help Anakin save Padme. Also about not being the Sith Lord behind the civil war against the government he was head of. Uh not sure what you are referring to with the first one. What line are you thinking of? The second one he never denies being a Sith Lord. At least in rots.
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Jan 19, 2017 20:24
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euphronius posted:Uh not sure what you are referring to with the first one. What line are you thinking of? The second one he never denies being a Sith Lord. At least in rots. I love this post because I'm sure you're trolling now but it reminds me of that one company that the military contracted to provide some extra trucks so they stole a bunch of trucks from that airport in Iraq and wrecked them in transport and still collected like $200,000 each and suffered no consequence because "at no point in our contract is it stated that we deliver trucks we legally rent or own or that they will work."
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Jan 19, 2017 20:27
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They guy said palpatine lied continuously through the movies. I can't remember one instance where he lied. That's all there is to this, mate. No tricks. No trolling.
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Jan 19, 2017 20:28
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euphronius posted:Uh not sure what you are referring to with the first one. What line are you thinking of? The second one he never denies being a Sith Lord. At least in rots. It's how he seduces Anakin, being all like "I'm sure we can figure out the secret to saving the lives of others with the Dark Side if we work together." Also that means he was either lying about not knowing how or about Plaugeius teaching his apprentice everything he knew.
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Jan 19, 2017 20:29
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He said "learn the power of the dark side and you can save your wife from certain death" iirc. Right?
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Jan 19, 2017 20:34
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That as well, but he also outright says they'd need to work together to rediscover how.
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Jan 19, 2017 20:35
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Neo Rasa posted:Palpatine, a guy who lies and manipulates people with literally every line of dialogue he has had in a series of movies spanning forty years told a lie to manipulate someone. A convoluted explanation. Show me one time Palpatine lied. You can't, because it didn't happen. Unfair biased media are the real liars. You're fake news! Sad!
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Jan 19, 2017 20:41
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Hodgepodge posted:It's how he seduces Anakin, being all like "I'm sure we can figure out the secret to saving the lives of others with the Dark Side if we work together." He's upfront about not knowing how. That's why he'd need Anakin's help to help figure it out. He never claims to be Plagueius's apprentice. Given that it was an old legend, it's unlikely that he is.
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Jan 19, 2017 20:55
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Schwarzwald posted:He's upfront about not knowing how. That's why he'd need Anakin's help to help figure it out. It isn't outright stated in the films, but it's pretty clear even there that the 'apprentice' is Palpatine himself. Especially since he's also explaining Anakin's birth, the only known birth due to the Force, as Plaugeius' work. This is confirmed by the "cannon" in case of confusion.
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Jan 19, 2017 21:00
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UmOk posted:If the first death star took 18+ years to make how did they make death star 2 in like 4? I believe in the old EU they said the Empire never planned on having only one Death Star, but several throughout the galaxy, so the second Death Star was already in production when the first one was finished. It was just designed to be larger and better as the new model. Like iPhones.
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Jan 19, 2017 21:07
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Palps is telling the truth, what he believes to be the truth, or at least a partial truth every time he opens his mouth in all of the films. This is critical to reading the films. You lot need to be careful!
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Jan 19, 2017 21:12
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Hodgepodge posted:It isn't outright stated in the films, but it's pretty clear even there that the 'apprentice' is Palpatine himself. Especially since he's also explaining Anakin's birth, the only known birth due to the Force, as Plaugeius' work. I don't think it's clear at all that Palpatine is the apprentice. Anakin isn't the only slave that grew up without a father.
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Jan 19, 2017 21:18
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CineD starting 2017 right with what's going to be a multi-page argument on whether or not Palpatine is a deceptive person.
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Jan 19, 2017 21:19
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