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Jan 20, 2017 21:45
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What did I do?
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Jan 20, 2017 21:48
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BROCK LESBIAN posted:Cracked of all people did a good article on this. Yeah this is a great article that everyone should read, it's nice and short and to the point
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Jan 20, 2017 21:49
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I just wanted to post and say good luck to the new subforum!
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Jan 20, 2017 22:00
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Hey so, genuine question: there's a Black history thread and now a Japanese/other minority history thread. Would this be an appropriate forum to post a "History of the Jews" thread? I know the boundary between religion and ethnicity is a little blurry with us, but Jewish history is pretty loving awesome and really interesting (for example, there was a long period of time in which there were actually 2 distinct kingdoms with different languages, cultures and even religions [Judea and Israel/Samaria], but both are still considered to be historically Jewish/Israeli), and is also pretty educational as far as "why do Jews get so much hate" beyond "JEWS KILLED CHRIST" or "JEWS CONTROL THE BANKS AND MEDIA". Also the 3 Roman-Jewish wars would translate into a TV show to rival any other violent historical series. They were pretty nuts.
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Jan 20, 2017 22:39
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Kelp Me! posted:Hey so, genuine question: there's a Black history thread and now a Japanese/other minority history thread. I'm not a mod, but I would be down for this.
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Jan 20, 2017 22:39
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Kelp Me! posted:Hey so, genuine question: there's a Black history thread and now a Japanese/other minority history thread. Yes absolutely! I'd love to read about that. All I really want from posters here is some effort.
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Jan 20, 2017 22:42
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Kelp Me! posted:Hey so, genuine question: there's a Black history thread and now a Japanese/other minority history thread. I'd post in such a thread.
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Jan 20, 2017 22:43
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Kelp Me! posted:Hey so, genuine question: there's a Black history thread and now a Japanese/other minority history thread. Yes, please every non-shithead person write a high-effort OP for whatever minority experience topic you can speak to. KM has a jewish parent herself and it's not like the black experience doesn't intersect with the Jewish experience in the US. Remember to report anybody who tries to turn it into Israel/Palestine thread 2.0
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Jan 20, 2017 22:44
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Remember to report anybody who tries to turn it into Israel/Palestine thread 2.0 It is an inevitability.
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Jan 20, 2017 22:45
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Chilichimp posted:It is an inevitability. Shithead whiteboy bullshit is universally inevitable, but that's no excuse not to fight against it.
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Jan 20, 2017 22:49
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Shithead whiteboy bullshit is universally inevitable, but that's no excuse not to fight against it. I was agreeing with you. My first thought re: "can I make a Jewish History thread?" was "Oh man, that's gonna turn into the Israel/Palestine thread real fast".
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Jan 20, 2017 22:52
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Awesome! I'll try to get something started tonight.Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yes, please every non-shithead person write a high-effort OP for whatever minority experience topic you can speak to. KM has a jewish parent herself and it's not like the black experience doesn't intersect with the Jewish experience in the US. The black experience actually intersects with the Jewish experience in Israel, too! Sadly, despite being historically persecuted as gently caress, modern Israelis can be just as viciously racist as Americans (up to and including accusations of forced sterilization  )https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel#Beta_Israel_.28Ethiopian_Jews.29 I will report all BS I/P nonsense but TBH I could probably shock them out of the thread by declaring myself as an Israeli citizen who overwhelmingly supports Palestinian rights/believes in a 2-state solution and thinks Netanyahu's closest analog in American politics is Donald Trump  e: I'm going to add a quick derail in pointing out how absurd and loving maddening it is when people IRL ask me to justify/explain my support for the hosed up poo poo Israel's government does, then acts confused when I ask them to justify/explain their support for building a wall at the Mexican border. Don't know why it's so loving hard for Americans to understand that nationality =! unilateral support for the current administration, especially given the current American political climate. Snow Cone Capone fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 22:52
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Chilichimp posted:I was agreeing with you. I was agreeing with you back! I'm just fierce is all 
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Jan 20, 2017 23:00
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Kelp Me! posted:
this is probably one of the most interesting and salient parts of actually discussing it, too, so don't apologize! I will look forward to it (I'm not Jewish but my wife's family is very big New York Jewish).
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Jan 20, 2017 23:02
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I was agreeing with you back! I'm just fierce is all 
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Jan 20, 2017 23:09
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Ol Standard Retard posted:this is probably one of the most interesting and salient parts of actually discussing it, too, so don't apologize! I will look forward to it (I'm not Jewish but my wife's family is very big New York Jewish).  it's singularly unique in that it is extremely hard to differentiate between religious and cultural aspects. I've had multiple rabbis agree with me that "Atheist Jew" is absolutely a thing, but boy you should see people try to wrap their heads around that one sometimes
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Jan 20, 2017 23:28
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blackguy32 posted:This is one of those kinds of topics where it sounds like you mean well, but in actuality, it's basically pissing all over someone else. The problem with that analogy is that many would love to get in touch with their roots and do genealogies and all that to see what part of Africa they originate from, but records are spotty and a lot of people's heritage did not survive slavery. What it essentially argues is that our history begins around the 1600s with slavery. That's fair. I get crabby about that topic because I feel that Arab cultures have it pretty rough with culture theft/destruction/marginalization presently (especially when neither party in the most powerful militant state is keen on them), and it feels like some equate a difficult history with an inferior one. Black American history is by no means pretty or pleasant, but its hardships have produced many of America's most powerful and inspirational cultural figures, and that's not something to neglect for an alien country. I completely agree that White posters and americans are just as bad if not worse about this (and I'm guilty of doing so without thought IRL). We're about as much german/french/italian/english as we are south african (which is to say, not at all).
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Jan 20, 2017 23:36
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Kelp Me! posted:
If you can get the point across it's a perfect object lesson in white western hegemony. Christians don't lose anything when they leave the traditional religious practices of their ancestors behind, because Christianity is woven into western secular culture at every level. You don't lose access to Christmas just because you stop going to church, for instance. The reality is all religions have ethnic and cultural components too, but Christianity being so evangelical (transcending ethnic bounds) and being the religion of the people who got to decide what America's cultural traditions are makes its practices and mores something secular Christians swim in unaware like fish and water. If you leave a non-Christian religion completely behind you step out into a world that largely doesn't know or care about your holidays and parables and iconography. More than that, you are left to replace it with the default culture, which any minority in America knows is explicitly a white protestant Christian one.
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Jan 20, 2017 23:37
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Kelp Me! posted:
I've got friends who identify as such.
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Jan 20, 2017 23:47
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March on, brave subforum 
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Jan 20, 2017 23:50
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I still don't agree with a lot of your politic, but the theme coincidentally intersects with an area of my research, so I'm effort posting. And I don't effort post just anywhere, let me tell you.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:03
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Koalas March posted:You're acting like we asked for this
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Jan 21, 2017 00:04
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Rakosi posted:I still don't agree with a lot of your politic, but the theme coincidentally intersects with an area of my research, so I'm effort posting. And I don't effort post just anywhere, let me tell you. Judging from your rap sheet, I can see that. Thank you for your effort posting.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:08
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Lowtax posted:Um people did ask for it. Should I move the thread back into D&D and close your subforum then? gently caress no I posted more words here than I have during the entirety of the time since I regged on these forums. Just move ALL identity politics here, imo. Feminism, mysoginoir, whatever, the lot. It would be for everyone's mutual benefit to separate them from D&D I think
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Jan 21, 2017 00:09
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Rakosi posted:I still don't agree with a lot of your politic, but the theme coincidentally intersects with an area of my research, so I'm effort posting. And I don't effort post just anywhere, let me tell you. Your effort-posts have been fantastic, keep them coming. Do you think we should start a catchall minority topics book rec thread? Also, if you have academic journal access I know that's something people frequently need help with here, so keep a lookout.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:10
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Also, if you have academic journal access I know that's something people frequently need help with here, so keep a lookout. I do and I will try my best, if people get in contact with me or whatever.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:13
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Lowtax posted:Um people did ask for it. Should I move the thread back into D&D and close your subforum then? At this point, I think the sub-forum has turned into something quite good. I do think that Koalas March does need some help in moderating it, however.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:14
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blackguy32 posted:At this point, I think the sub-forum has turned into something quite good. I do think that Koalas March does need some help in moderating it, however. I am white but interested in race and disagree with the prevailing politics on these forums. pick me to help Koalas March moderate, Lowtax. I'll be good, I promise 
Rakosi fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jan 21, 2017 |
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Jan 21, 2017 00:17
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blackguy32 posted:At this point, I think the sub-forum has turned into something quite good. I do think that Koalas March does need some help in moderating it, however. I love it now all the terrible rule breaking poo poo posts are gone. I think Blackguy32 would be a great IK to handle the night shift while I'm gone too, since everyone wants to come and troll here. Some really great threads are just getting off the ground.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:18
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Lowtax posted:Um people did ask for it. Should I move the thread back into D&D and close your subforum then? This really wasn't what happened. Black posters have had their legitimate and debatable issues deluged in anti-debate white noise all the way since USPOL until they got pushed to their own thread. It was STILL happening in Negrotown, and after back and forth with whether the white noise would get attentive moderation or not, the decision was made largely FOR black posters to move to it's own forum. I mean, the leper's colony sort of shows exactly how much respect the opening of this forum received, but it wasn't by regulars, it was the usual suspect drive-by's who would rather drown the issue in white noise rather than debate. That said though, like blackguy32 said, it's turning in the right direction, but that's really only because it was such a struggle to get moderation that actually addressed the white-noise of D&D that prevented the discussions of race issues. This forum can only do well if there is enough rope given to moderation to actually deal with the white noise so good faith debate can occur. What I refer to as white-noise could surely be called declaring wrongthink or whatever, but an attentive moderator can surely tell the difference, and KM is that moderator.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:21
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:If you can get the point across it's a perfect object lesson in white western hegemony. Christians don't lose anything when they leave the traditional religious practices of their ancestors behind, because Christianity is woven into western secular culture at every level. You don't lose access to Christmas just because you stop going to church, for instance. The reality is all religions have ethnic and cultural components too, but Christianity being so evangelical (transcending ethnic bounds) and being the religion of the people who got to decide what America's cultural traditions are makes its practices and mores something secular Christians swim in unaware like fish and water. If you leave a non-Christian religion completely behind you step out into a world that largely doesn't know or care about your holidays and parables and iconography. More than that, you are left to replace it with the default culture, which any minority in America knows is explicitly a white protestant Christian one. "Do you go to church every Sunday? No? But you still celebrate Christmas, right?" is a favorite argument of mine in this regard. It actually tends to work decently well. The key point is getting people to understand the inextricable link between religion and culture in Judaism. Visual aids tend to help. Show someone a Celtic Cross and they will 99% of the time identify it as an Irish symbol over a Christian symbol. Follow that up with a Star of David and watch the gears spin in their head as they try to figure it out. Unfortunately that specific example may push them into IDing Judaism as a religion and not a culture/ethnicity, but most people I've encountered have been bright enough to understand what I'm getting at. Another aspect of it is the fact that a lot of prominent Jewish holidays are a lot more cultural than people expect. Yes, Passover is on paper a celebration of God smiting the Egyptians and leading the Israelites out of slavery, but in reality it's a celebration of yet another triumph of the Jews over adversity (which is probably why there are so many prominent Jewish scholars who try to assign scientific rationalizations for the events described, without diminishing from the importance of the holiday itself to Jews). Same with Hanukkah; there's some religious window dressing about the Menorah oil lasting for 8 days when there was only enough oil for 1, etc. but in reality it's a celebration of the Maccabean Revolt, a historically-supported rebellion of Judean Jews against the occupying Seleucid Empire from 167-160BCE. (Fun fact: if those dates seem relatively recent in the grand scheme of things, you're spot-on: Hanukkah doesn't actually appear in the Hebrew Bible, and as such it is not a holiday in the traditional "compulsory day of rest" sense that most other Jewish holidays fall under. e: Also, I also have scientific journal access and would be happy to help if anybody needs any primary sources.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:22
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I think that Dexo and Fluffdaddy would both be excellent choices as well as blackguy32 for IK.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:23
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The ideology eater posted:I think that Dexo and Fluffdaddy would both be excellent choices as well as blackguy32 for IK. I think I would be a pretty decent IK but I have zero evidence to support it!
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Jan 21, 2017 00:24
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Maluco Marinero posted:This really wasn't what happened. Black posters have had their legitimate and debatable issues deluged in anti-debate white noise all the way since USPOL until they got pushed to their own thread. It was STILL happening in Negrotown, and after back and forth with whether the white noise would get attentive moderation or not, the decision was made largely FOR black posters to move to it's own forum.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:25
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Kelp Me! posted:I think I would be a pretty decent IK but I have zero evidence to support it! I'd agree with this as well from all of your posting that I've seen!
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Jan 21, 2017 00:27
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Lowtax posted:Pretty sure I recall posting in here and asking people if I should make a subforum for it and people replied yes. Ok, I think this is water under the bridge. We have the subforum, and it is actually turning into a good place for people to post in. So all I can say is thank you for the sub-forum. It has turned out better than I perceived it would.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:29
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blackguy32 posted:Ok, I think this is water under the bridge. We have the subforum, and it is actually turning into a good place for people to post in. So all I can say is thank you for the sub-forum. It has turned out better than I perceived it would. Things could be a lot worse. I feel like most people are on their best behaviors.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:31
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Maluco Marinero posted:This really wasn't what happened. Black posters have had their legitimate and debatable issues deluged in anti-debate white noise all the way since USPOL until they got pushed to their own thread. It was STILL happening in Negrotown, and after back and forth with whether the white noise would get attentive moderation or not, the decision was made largely FOR black posters to move to it's own forum. I mean, the leper's colony sort of shows exactly how much respect the opening of this forum received, but it wasn't by regulars, it was the usual suspect drive-by's who would rather drown the issue in white noise rather than debate. I disagree in principle but if this subforum becomes the place for identity politics in general then I agree in practice. Drain out of the rest of the forums and dump it all here for the people who want to discuss it. Clearly identity politics doesn't work in D&D, so bring it all here under a couple mods willing to shovel poo poo to keep this one space tidy while the rest of the forums can post banalities to their heart's content. Lowtax posted:Pretty sure I recall posting in here and asking people if I should make a subforum for it and people replied yes. You probably jumped the gun, but bring all the other "too left for the rest of the forums" threads, like the feminism one and the mysoginoir one here, and alot of the extreme end of what people complain about when they talk of liberal circlejerking in D&D will be confined to one subforum. And make it clear that its not a judgement of the validity of the discussions that go on here, but rather a separation that is to the benefit of discussions all across the forums. If someone wants to have a discussion about identity politics in a thread elsewhere; they can't. This should be the subforum for it. Centralize the issue, imo.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:31
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I'm not sure how to say thanks without sounding weird or self congratulatory but yeah Thanks Lowtax! We've got some great and interesting posts popping up and I'm really excited to see where they go 
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Jan 21, 2017 00:32
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