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FastestGunAlive posted:I am glad you kept that jobbo because it helped  I was sort of rooting for him. "Just get another sickness and you'll be out for another month!"  but that line, when I read it, just had me thinking "gently caress, really?"I'm curious to see if anything might change his attitude before the end of the diary... spectralent posted:The frequent mentions of sickness are really fascinating for me, especially since we briefly covered tropical diseases and epidemiology via a comparative look at the desert rats and the afrikakorps. Yeah, I can't tell if he's just a special case but it certainly seems like he's spent a lot of time behind the front rather than under fire. Might just be the way he writes his experiences though.
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Jan 23, 2017 00:27
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sickness only stopped being the biggest killer for soldiers after the first world war and was still a major problem in the second, this diary is not out of line with thatspectralent posted:The frequent mentions of sickness are really fascinating for me, especially since we briefly covered tropical diseases and epidemiology via a comparative look at the desert rats and the afrikakorps.
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Jan 23, 2017 00:31
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I did some Googling and this page sold Krengel's actual diary and photo album along with the book that translated it. They included a bunch of pictures of the actual diary, and it turns out our man was quite the sketchbook artist.         I think this picture may be Krengel himself: 
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Jan 23, 2017 00:33
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spectralent posted:The frequent mentions of sickness are really fascinating for me, especially since we briefly covered tropical diseases and epidemiology via a comparative look at the desert rats and the afrikakorps. Who was healthier, and why?
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Jan 23, 2017 00:37
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The TLDR version is it was the British for various reasons that boil down to sanitation. My favourite bit was that lecturer also suggested part of it was the insane appetite for tea that the British had, which meant that, even if you weren't a tea drinker yourself, you were almost certainly drinking from water that had been boiled after it'd been sourced. Most of it was boring stuff about drainage and fecal-oral transmission, though. The British apparently built latrines obsessively wherever they stopped whereas the Germans preferred the "dig a hole, take a dump, cover hole" approach that can lead to surrounding soil getting contaminated (which becomes a problem if people end up sleeping near it, or eating nearby, or other stuff, which is also exacerbated by the fact you don't know which bushes everyone went behind if you don't have a designated making GBS threads Hole). Oh and there's also a tendency for poorly-covered poop holes to attract flies which make everything worse. Though having just typed that it's not the case that the british were immune to disease, either. Populous, static conditions, especially in places with unfamiliar pathogens, tend to lead to outbreaks of disease. Just they were a bit better about looking after water and drainage and that's a massive route of transmission for a lot of disease, both directly and indirectly. EDIT: That lecturer was generally really cool and I wished I'd had him more especially after I went up to ask him about some parasitology coursework and we ended up having to reschedule that because we wasted like twenty minutes talking about IL-2 (the flight sim). spectralent fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 00:49
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The Krengel Diary Part 14 Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 Part 9 Part 10 Part 11 Part 12 Part 13 1942 27 June: At last we are receiving ammunition. Could it be that we are moving up to the front? We hear now that our troops and the Italians are south of Mersa Matruh. 29 June: Our forces are now well into Egypt and we took Mersa Matruh today, capturing 6000 British, Australian, and New Zealand troops, and even Indians and French Legionnaires. We are getting ready to move out, and by 1 July all is packed and loaded. We even built a few small trailers to hitch up to the NSU motorcycles. We will be quite a caravan once we get going. 3 July: We get a wake-up call at 4 AM. We move out and about 6 miles from Tobruk we reach the harbor area; lots of traffic as we get nearer. The harbor is littered with sunken freighters. We pick up one more 37mm cannon from a Wehrmacht arsenal and stay overnight in Tobruk. The next morning we move to Bardia, then on past Sollum, Capuzzo, Halfaya Pass, Sidi Barani, and stop 8 miles east of Mersa Matruh. Past Sidi Barani the roads are better. This is Egypt, not Libya. We have had no air alerts so far. 6 July: At 5 AM wake-up call and we move out at 6:30 AM via El Daba. 18 miles east of El Daba, the left suspension of the Puma* breaks, but we can't stop. We got lost somehow and can't find our main group. We end up right at the front line and turn back for 12 miles and set up camp for the night. Soon or sleep comes to an end; enemy bombers spotted us with the help of parachute flares. They drop bombs all around us and onto the main highway. This circus goes on for 4 hours until daylight when the Tommies fly home. We finally find our group on the 7th, near the coast, unhitch our guns and settle down for a meal and a swim in the sea. 9 July: We move out at 7 AM, south toward the front. On 10 July we meet up with 33rd Panzer Battalion, but the enemy plasters us with artillery before we can find a suitable position, so we seek shelter in a wadi. At mid-day enemy fighter-bombers join the fray and damage one of our cannons. We move to a deeper wadi and wait for daylight. 11 July: We're stuck in this wadi and can't even stick our noses out. A messenger arrives on a motorcycle, warning us that the enemy has broken through our lines north of us at El Alamein and that our troops will try to contain the breakthrough. We dig in and during the night a truck with supplies arrives. 12 July: We change position to the north and draw fire from concealed enemy light artillery. Just before 3 PM, General Rommel arrives right at the front line. His armored car stops beside the main highway and immediately comes under enemy PaK fire, and then heavier artillery joins in. The British must have an observer somewhere near us. Like a young boy, General Rommel jumps from one hole into the next, the crouches behind a PaK shield, looks with his binoculars, scouts orders and even directs a PaK to fire on an enemy tank in the distance. He even helps the crew pull the gun around. My group, being a heavy machine gun company, takes on enemy infantry walking behind oncoming tanks. Just before dark, the General mounts an NSU and drives to the south, his armoured car shot to bits by British tank gunners. The enemy mysteriously disappears in the smoke and dust and we move forward for about 2 miles. We settle in a wadi but we are still under sporadic artillery fire; no serious casualties occur. 13 July: All day we stay in the wadi and take much artillery fire and attacks by fighter-bombers but we see no enemy tanks. After mid-day the artillery fire eases up and increases to the south of us. Over the radio we are ordered to the south to join Battle Group Rommel. This sounds rather suspicious. Is this an enemy trap? We contact the battle group a few minutes later and they confirm the order. We shake our heads; a battle group is normally commanded by a 1st Lieutenant or maybe a Colonel. Now we have one under the command of a General! We join Battle Group Rommel at 6 PM and are told that 1st Lt. Kiehl, the battle group leader was wounded and that the general just happened to be there at the time and immediately took temporary command of the group. We're in a narrow wadi and well sheltered for the time being. The artillery fire has moved to the north and west. The General decides to stay overnight and told us not to use the radio because that would alert the enemy, who listens in on our radio traffic. In a cave we brew some coffee. The General reads some of my diary and signs the fron page. He and an aid sleep in the cave with us. The book has several pages of pictures taken of or from a collection of photos Krengel took. One of them shows Rommels signature. chitoryu12 posted:I did some Googling and this page sold Krengel's actual diary and photo album along with the book that translated it. They included a bunch of pictures of the actual diary, and it turns out our man was quite the sketchbook artist. I was JUST about to post about the pictures. 
Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 00:55
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Was it usual for someone so low ranking to see high-ranking officers this often? I suppose it's only 2-3 times over a year, but still.
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Jan 23, 2017 01:02
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spectralent posted:Was it usual for someone so low ranking to see high-ranking officers this often? I suppose it's only 2-3 times over a year, but still. To be honest, I've often heard that Rommel would always be on the move and visited units frequently.
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Jan 23, 2017 01:06
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Jobbo_Fett posted:To be honest, I've often heard that Rommel would always be on the move and visited units frequently. Gotta get those quest turnins
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Jan 23, 2017 01:09
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spectralent posted:The TLDR version is it was the British for various reasons that boil down to sanitation. My favourite bit was that lecturer also suggested part of it was the insane appetite for tea that the British had, which meant that, even if you weren't a tea drinker yourself, you were almost certainly drinking from water that had been boiled after it'd been sourced. Interesting. I just finished reading a naval history of the American revolution and its mentioned several times how the cleanliness and discipline of the British helped them not have various squadrons and fleets completely devastated by sickness as often as the Spanish and French. One anecdote from a British officer boarding a captured French ship covers how disgusting their living situation was; no regular cleaning of berthing areas or linens. Cleanliness is still important of course. Krengel's entry on the inspection where the sergeant only asked if the men had towels sticks out. SNCOs and NCOs ensuring men change socks and skivvies and don't go to the bathroom too close to the current position is definitely still a thing.
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Jan 23, 2017 01:10
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FAUXTON posted:I like the way he depicts a donkey's bray as "I-AA" Ä-öö surely. I wasn't aware that Monty was a necromancer. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 01:23
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FastestGunAlive posted:Interesting. I just finished reading a naval history of the American revolution and its mentioned several times how the cleanliness and discipline of the British helped them not have various squadrons and fleets completely devastated by sickness as often as the Spanish and French. One anecdote from a British officer boarding a captured French ship covers how disgusting their living situation was; no regular cleaning of berthing areas or linens. Yeah, that's exactly the stuff the British were (according to an epidemeology curriculum) doing right and the Germans were doing wrong, and there's a noticeable different in the amount of sickness leave as a result. As a case study it has the added benefit that the two populations are otherwise very close; both white europeans who're unlikely to have prior exposure or genetic resistance, both have developed medical facilities (indeed, if you got sick your treatment's about the same either way), and both had vaccination programmes of varying efficacy for most of the big numbers, so it's likely solely down to sanitation.
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Jan 23, 2017 01:48
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OwlFancier posted:I wasn't aware that Monty was a necromancer. That's an Australian
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Jan 23, 2017 01:50
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Forgive me if this was answered recently, I haven't kept up with the thread, I just got a quick question about the Middle Ages. I was doing some light reading on Al Andalusia and I got to the part about the Battle of Tours and how Charles Martel forced the Andalusian Heavy Cav to charge into his Heavy Infantry in unfavourable conditions. Wikipedia vaguely mentions that the Heavy Infantry were his elite troops and wore heavy armour, were they just guys with halberds and scale armour or are details like that kinda just lost to history?
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Jan 23, 2017 02:21
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Ensign Expendable posted:02SS Aerosan
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Jan 23, 2017 02:57
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Man this is reminiscent of Egger-Lienz    (I'll take any opportunity to pimp egger lienz)
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Jan 23, 2017 03:07
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The Krengel Diary Part 15 Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 Part 9 Part 10 Part 11 Part 12 Part 13 Part 14 1942 14 July: We move out at daybreak to our former position. General Rommel departs to the rear on a supply truck. At noon we are under heavy fire. A 76mm shell explodes near my hole and I receive another small shrapnel wound to my left ear. The artillery fire dies down a bit but by 6 PM it starts all over again. We suffer a direct hit on one of our guns; Sgt.Wilbezon is killed immediately and Pvt.Frohn is wounded. The next round explodes by the trucks and disables two vehicles and wounds Lehmann, the drive. We move out of the unhealthy place to the south; heavy artillery fire on us but we manage to seal a gap in the front where the enemy broke through and surrounded one of our Pioneer battalions. We take 200 enemy POWs and rescue the Pioneers. 17 July: Yesterday we stayed all day under cover in the wadi, drawing light artillery fire, but today we are moving up to attack. Sgt.Hester has been severely wounded. Later I'm ordered to General Rommel's HQ to take over as temporary messenger so that we can stay in contact with an Italian division. I am told that this division lost 30 percent of its strength in the last enemy breakthrough. I am relieved as messenger in the evening and make my way back to my unit under heavy fire. 18 July: At 4:30 AM we are under fire once again. At 11 AM General Rommel arrives, and he and Major Eberle go on a reconnaissance patrol. When they return, we are ordered to move south along the telegraph road to the Taqua Plateau; no enemy activity. The next day, fighter-bomber attacks but we have no casualties. We move to the eastern end of the plateau to cover a Pioneer company that is on a mine laying detail. 20 July: We're still guarding the Pioneers, who are extending the mine field well into our front. By 7 PM the Pioneers are done and we all return to base camp. As soon as we arrive at camp, an enemy patrol vehicle runs into the field creating lots of fireworks. 21 July: We are still guarding the mine laying Pioneers. At 6 PM an accident occurs. During the fuse setting, a Pioneer sets off a mine and 60 of the devices explode, killing 9 Pioneers and 3 men of my company; several more are wounded. We have to leave the dead and retreat to the wadi. 22 July: Early in the morning the Pioneers recover the dead. We guard the recovery but are attacked by enemy infantry. We reply with Puma* fire. They fire on us with AT guns and one Puma* sustains a direct hit; Sgts. Riba and Rossler are both wounded. Sgt.Riba loses a leg. I attend to Riba and drive him hellbent to the field aid station. On my return we stage a counterattack, pushing the enemy off the plateau that has cost us many casualties. Another Puma* gets hit by AT fire; one of my old comrades, Heinz Pahn, is KIA. 23 July: Things are quiet today. We receive water and ammunition and form a security screen on the plateau with AT guns and 2nd and 3rd Companies. Because of my constantly re-occurring tropical skin boils, I drive to the Field Hospital for treatment. Its 20 miles east of Daba near the railroad line from Kairo to Mersa Matruh. On the 26th I get my wounds and my skin boils treated and stay there until 3 Aug, assigned to indoor duty. 3 August: I get a truck and drive to fetch supplies from the 90th Division depot, but the truck breaks down. Next day I get a converted water carrier truck to take us 10 miles east of Marsa Matruh, but this time the steering column king pin breaks and there is no replacement. It's too dangerous to drive this wreck so I tromp back on foot for a replacement truck; no deal. The only other truck has a broken clutch. Ssgt. Kurz of the depot radios our battle group to send transport for me. 6 August: My replacement truck shows up finally and we set off for Mersa Matruh. Five miles down the road, the truck with the broken clutch catches up with us and stays with us. How does the driver manage???
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Jan 23, 2017 03:26
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https://i.imgur.com/KldvZFf.jpg looks super familiar to me. I want to say... It's copied from a propaganda leaflet or something? My Google-fu isn't good enough to find it though.
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Jan 23, 2017 03:33
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FastestGunAlive posted:Interesting. I just finished reading a naval history of the American revolution and its mentioned several times how the cleanliness and discipline of the British helped them not have various squadrons and fleets completely devastated by sickness as often as the Spanish and French. One anecdote from a British officer boarding a captured French ship covers how disgusting their living situation was; no regular cleaning of berthing areas or linens. "Deuteronomy posted:10 If there be among you any man, that is not clean by reason of uncleanness that chanceth him by night, then shall he go abroad out of the camp, he shall not come within the camp:
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Jan 23, 2017 04:47
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Oh, Rommel. Scurrying between foxholes, heroically leading from the front, helping the gun crew wheel around their weapon, and micromanaging decisions better left to grades WAY below him. I mean, not to bash the guy, but shouldn't he be doing General things like looking at maps and making sure his logistics aren't stretched past breaking instead of reliving the glory days?
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Jan 23, 2017 06:18
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Crazycryodude posted:Oh, Rommel. Scurrying between foxholes, heroically leading from the front, helping the gun crew wheel around their weapon, and micromanaging decisions better left to grades WAY below him. I mean, not to bash the guy, but shouldn't he be doing General things like looking at maps and making sure his logistics aren't stretched past breaking instead of reliving the glory days? The maps are outdated, hes short-staffed, and his logistics are already hosed beyond belief
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Jan 23, 2017 06:42
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Crazycryodude posted:Oh, Rommel. Scurrying between foxholes, heroically leading from the front, helping the gun crew wheel around their weapon, and micromanaging decisions better left to grades WAY below him. I mean, not to bash the guy, but shouldn't he be doing General things like looking at maps and making sure his logistics aren't stretched past breaking instead of reliving the glory days? until it didn't lol
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Jan 23, 2017 06:49
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So I am having a hard time finding the actual patrol log written by commander Daspit of the Tinosa. It was in the first person, and all I can find is information about the engagement about the actual 13 dud torpedoes. Anyone know where I can find it?
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Jan 23, 2017 07:05
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interesting. The pose makes me think it's kind of a play on this WWI poster: 
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Jan 23, 2017 07:36
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I love The Krengel Diary, even though I hate Krengel.
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Jan 23, 2017 08:02
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For the poster who wanted to see some info on strafing. THIS GOES WITHOUT SAYING BUT SOME PEOPLE WARNING!   A gif showing some people getting shot at by a GAU-8 Avenger.  http://i.imgur.com/Gq1Znlo.gifv There's no blood or gore (the gif cuts out before you can see the... "result" but it does illustrate strafing with cannons. Soft ground and impact angle appears to minimize how much lateral effect the explosive rounds have.
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Jan 23, 2017 08:30
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Eej posted:Forgive me if this was answered recently, I haven't kept up with the thread, I just got a quick question about the Middle Ages. I was doing some light reading on Al Andalusia and I got to the part about the Battle of Tours and how Charles Martel forced the Andalusian Heavy Cav to charge into his Heavy Infantry in unfavourable conditions. Wikipedia vaguely mentions that the Heavy Infantry were his elite troops and wore heavy armour, were they just guys with halberds and scale armour or are details like that kinda just lost to history? I recall some posters in the medieval thread being of the opinion that the Battle of Tours never happened. Edit: or rather, the accounts of it are written a long time afterwards and describe a generic heroic battle according to the ideals of the time, so we can't know. Morholt fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 08:36
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Crazycryodude posted:Oh, Rommel. Scurrying between foxholes, heroically leading from the front, helping the gun crew wheel around their weapon, and micromanaging decisions better left to grades WAY below him. I mean, not to bash the guy, but shouldn't he be doing General things like looking at maps and making sure his logistics aren't stretched past breaking instead of reliving the glory days? I think there's some criticism towards Rommel for doing that poo poo instead of actually staying in touch with his units and managing the DAK. It's a thing sometimes discussed in management strategies in general: the boss might be a guy who's great at [task his staff does] but he should not sit around doing that poo poo himself, but instead act like a manager and make sure his staff can do the tasks they're supposed to do.
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Jan 23, 2017 10:50
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How did newspapers handle the war during WWII? Was the war always front page news every day for the countries involved?
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Jan 23, 2017 12:02
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Kemper Boyd posted:I think there's some criticism towards Rommel for doing that poo poo instead of actually staying in touch with his units and managing the DAK. Hmm, some of the writers I've read, like Beevor *hides* ..say that this kind of behaviour( which he already pulled during the battle of France) created a myth around him, which made the morale of his men much better. Didn't seem to do him a lot of good anyhow.
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Jan 23, 2017 12:33
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From the microfilm I've seen, war news was front-page, last-page, and every-page-in-between.
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Jan 23, 2017 12:36
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Tias posted:Hmm, some of the writers I've read, like Beevor *hides* As an armoured division commander right at the spearhead of an entire operation it was entirely appropriate for Guderian and Rodmell to be pulling the poo poo they did in France, because that was a campaign where they needed to be personally directing the battle at critical points to ensure victory (aided by the excellent German doctrinal training that let junior officers follow the lead without express orders). That is not the kind of behaviour you can continue at the Corps or Army level. Rommel fails in Africa to focus on what matters, Guderian does a bit better in Russia and fundamentally gets how to exercise command but is way too optimistic and doesn't work well with others he doesn't respect.
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Jan 23, 2017 14:21
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Kemper Boyd posted:I think there's some criticism towards Rommel for doing that poo poo instead of actually staying in touch with his units and managing the DAK. There are quotes concerning Rommel before D-Day, where he would go personally round each of the beaches and check that the soldiers were laying as much barbed wire and obstacles as possible by checking how scratched their hands were I think it's fair to say that Rommel was a pretty good divisional commander who in particular excelled in pursuit, exploitation and maneuver at the expense of putting a lot of stress on his logistics. I think once he got elevated above that level he was somewhat out of his depth, particularly in terms of the defence of the Channel coast. He bet the house on throwing the allies back into the sea right on the beach instead of defending in depth which turned out to be a really bad idea. I kind of see Rommel as a kind of equivalent to Westmoreland, who was regarded as a popular and competent commander of the 101st Airborne and a guy who was in touch with his troops, but when promoted to be in charge of the Vietnam was hopelessly out of his depth and couldn't break out of his mental picture of how the war should be fought, to everyone's detriment (except I guess the North Vietnamese).
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Jan 23, 2017 17:49
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The CIA continues to entertain. I think they got more wrong in this excerpt than correct.
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Jan 23, 2017 18:19
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Rommel: McClellan except he made an attempt at offensive action.
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Jan 23, 2017 18:26
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MikeCrotch posted:There are quotes concerning Rommel before D-Day, where he would go personally round each of the beaches and check that the soldiers were laying as much barbed wire and obstacles as possible by checking how scratched their hands were I know this question is gay black hitler territory, but do you think that the Germans really had a shot at stopping the allies in the west either way? Obviously Rommel's idea didn't work but I'm wondering if they had any hope any other way. It seems like they were pretty doomed by then and the western allies were raring to go. And if you'll allow me to go into even gayer, blacker, hitler territory, I've always wondered what would have happened if d-day had failed or just never happened. In America we always learn that d-day was ~~the turning point~~ of the war, when brave America and co arrived to defeat the nazi menace but it seems to me that by June 1944, Germany was already losing pretty handily on the eastern front. Obviously having a second front helped speed that losing process up considerably and I don't mean to diminish the service of anyone who fought, but I feel like even without d-day, the soviets would have probably still won eventually. But I'm not a historian, or a time traveler, and haven't really researched that question too deeply.
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Jan 23, 2017 18:32
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MikeCrotch posted:I kind of see Rommel as a kind of equivalent to Westmoreland, who was regarded as a popular and competent commander of the 101st Airborne and a guy who was in touch with his troops, but when promoted to be in charge of the Vietnam was hopelessly out of his depth and couldn't break out of his mental picture of how the war should be fought, to everyone's detriment (except I guess the North Vietnamese). Whoops, I'm an idiot, he was! Should've checked that before posting. 
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Jan 23, 2017 18:35
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Not real history, but some people might be interested in the LP I've just started of the Thirty Years War come regal the thread with your knowledge and laugh at my pitiful attempts to win a war!
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Jan 23, 2017 18:54
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Ainsley McTree posted:And if you'll allow me to go into even gayer, blacker, hitler territory, I've always wondered what would have happened if d-day had failed or just never happened. In America we always learn that d-day was ~~the turning point~~ of the war, when brave America and co arrived to defeat the nazi menace but it seems to me that by June 1944, Germany was already losing pretty handily on the eastern front. Obviously having a second front helped speed that losing process up considerably and I don't mean to diminish the service of anyone who fought, but I feel like even without d-day, the soviets would have probably still won eventually. But I'm not a historian, or a time traveler, and haven't really researched that question too deeply. The Soviets will have won anyway. The biggest impact would depend on if you think Churchill would have been allowed to implement Operation Vegetarian or not.
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Jan 23, 2017 19:00
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Ainsley McTree posted:I know this question is gay black hitler territory, but do you think that the Germans really had a shot at stopping the allies in the west either way? Obviously Rommel's idea didn't work but I'm wondering if they had any hope any other way. It seems like they were pretty doomed by then and the western allies were raring to go. Here's the thing about a D-Day that fails: It doesn't allow Germany to recuperate at all. They still have to defend the coastline and, unless the Allies somehow lose all their infantry and ships, are still vulnerable to amphibious operations along said coastline. Sure, it may hurt allied morale a little/lot but its not something so catastrophic that someone throws in the towel and surrenders.
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Jan 23, 2017 19:03
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