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Ferrinus posted:You could make skills able to climb above 14 but decay back down to 14 over time. You want to bring back victory dancing, then? Because I can't see an intuitive way to determine what skills to drain beyond ">14 and haven't used it in the past x turns." And if it's purely lockstep "after x number of turns decay by amount if >14" you would just keep everything locked in as being trained and either not be able to creep past 14 (if the decay is strong) or slowly build up past it (decay is weak).
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Jan 23, 2017 20:28
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Araganzar posted:What I want to clarify is the deal breaker is hitting a spot where I have nothing meaningful to do with my XP. Solve that and I think you're down to tuning the actual caps and apts values, and of course flavor like sense invisible. It's an interesting niche for a race to fill and it presents meaningful choices to the player. This was exactly my feeling playing my Cyno too. As soon as I got near 1 rune, I had no useful skills to train (due to an anti magic lajatang). It's an effective species at a 14 skill cap, but not subjectively "fun."
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Jan 23, 2017 20:45
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Could you make it so that Cyno can raise skills beyond 14 but after going beyond that they no longer learn quickly and instead do so at an abysmal rate? Basically make it so the species can pick up lots of stuff easily but mastering anything will take a significant amount of exp investment.
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Jan 23, 2017 21:47
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I haven't played this game in years, my only successful character was a mountain dwarf fighter of okwaru who got really lucky with gifts. Thinking of trying it out again but don't want to spend ages researching / trial and erroring what spells work well in addition to how the game itself works right now. Is there anything I should be playing now that MD is gone or does that attitude basically preclude me from this game?
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Jan 23, 2017 21:55
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great big cardboard tube posted:I haven't played this game in years, my only successful character was a mountain dwarf fighter of okwaru who got really lucky with gifts. Thinking of trying it out again but don't want to spend ages researching / trial and erroring what spells work well in addition to how the game itself works right now. Is there anything I should be playing now that MD is gone or does that attitude basically preclude me from this game? Gargoyle is pretty strong, give that a shot
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Jan 23, 2017 22:02
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great big cardboard tube posted:I haven't played this game in years, my only successful character was a mountain dwarf fighter of okwaru who got really lucky with gifts. Thinking of trying it out again but don't want to spend ages researching / trial and erroring what spells work well in addition to how the game itself works right now. Is there anything I should be playing now that MD is gone or does that attitude basically preclude me from this game? Minotaurs are almost identical to mountain dwarves so if you just want to try that playstyle again use them.
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Jan 23, 2017 22:11
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brainwrinkle posted:This was exactly my feeling playing my Cyno too. As soon as I got near 1 rune, I had no useful skills to train (due to an anti magic lajatang). It's an effective species at a 14 skill cap, but not subjectively "fun." Good point, it's not that the race is not strong it's just the perception of XP going NOWHERE is really hard to break. I guess I'm more of a bread crumbs player than a pie at the end player, although having both is nice too.
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Jan 23, 2017 22:20
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Internet Kraken posted:Could you make it so that Cyno can raise skills beyond 14 but after going beyond that they no longer learn quickly and instead do so at an abysmal rate? Basically make it so the species can pick up lots of stuff easily but mastering anything will take a significant amount of exp investment. Could you just have them have their skills capped at 14 before XL 13, then give them -3 in all skills and full skill caps after XL 13? Can't teach an old dog new tricks, after all.
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Jan 23, 2017 22:20
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Internet Kraken posted:Could you make it so that Cyno can raise skills beyond 14 but after going beyond that they no longer learn quickly and instead do so at an abysmal rate? Basically make it so the species can pick up lots of stuff easily but mastering anything will take a significant amount of exp investment. You know, I think this might be the way to go forward. Removing the hard cap, but implementing a soft cap through applying an anti manual effect (-4 to -8) to any skill at 14 or above. I'll have to look into how manuals apply their bonus and go from there. Edit: Actually, I just remembered anti-training used to exist for spells of opposite schools, I should look there first. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 22:27
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great big cardboard tube posted:I haven't played this game in years, my only successful character was a mountain dwarf fighter of okwaru who got really lucky with gifts. Thinking of trying it out again but don't want to spend ages researching / trial and erroring what spells work well in addition to how the game itself works right now. Is there anything I should be playing now that MD is gone or does that attitude basically preclude me from this game? Hill Orc and Minotaur are good replacements for mountain dwarves. Formicid are an interesting melee choice because they can use 2 handed weapons with a shield, but they have the big downside of stasis (no tele, no blinks, no berserk, no haste!). They can dig through walls and floors as an alternate escape mechanism, though. If you want to be primarily a spellcaster but not be a completely glass cannon, gargoyles are pretty tough -- they get innate resists and AC bonus.
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Jan 24, 2017 01:07
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Has stealth been nerfed by any chance? I was playing a DSMo of Dem and had nightstalker 1, full piety, and was even wearing a ring of stealth, and yet it seemed most monsters would wake up before I could stab them. When I checked my char % I had a maxed out stealth stat. It was actually pretty underpowered to play in comparison to the staple MiFi and DECj builds, and I felt I was never quite comfortable taking on my current floor. Finally, I got bored and suicided into a yaktaur pack that woke up when I was trying to stab them.
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Jan 24, 2017 01:24
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Stealth has always been pretty lovely. If you want to be a stabber, you pretty much need to either have a way to get distractions & confusion, or a powerful fall-back for when they wake up.
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Jan 24, 2017 01:27
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It's probably good that you can't just dump points into stealth and expect to be able stab everything for the whole game. It doesn't stop being useful though.. I've stabbed plenty of pan lords and such. I like stealth for being able to pick things off without engaging the entire group. It makes escaping way easier too, especially with nightstalker.
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Jan 24, 2017 01:45
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I view Stealth as more of a defensive skill - it helps you choose your battles and makes it easier to get away when something is chasing you. It's too unreliable for forcing a stab - that's what Ensorcerelled Hibernation and Confuse are for.
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Jan 24, 2017 01:59
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Floodkiller posted:You know, I think this might be the way to go forward. Removing the hard cap, but implementing a soft cap through applying an anti manual effect (-4 to -8) to any skill at 14 or above. I'll have to look into how manuals apply their bonus and go from there. iirc, anti-training doesn't work with the current skill system. (which is one of the reasons it was removed.) also, if you're going to apply a soft-cap, my feeling is that there shouldn't be any magic numbers at all; just make skill costs rise faster than normal, rather than having a magic '14' at which things become much more expensive.
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Jan 24, 2017 02:29
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PleasingFungus posted:iirc, anti-training doesn't work with the current skill system. (which is one of the reasons it was removed.) I would also be fine with this approach if anti-training doesn't function properly anymore. However, would the 'display skill costs' option in the skill menu be sufficient enough to display this information to the player? I don't think there is any other format to see that the skill costs were changed without source diving, which means that this could count as significantly spoilery information.
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Jan 24, 2017 03:22
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I feel dog dudes would be more interesting if there was more skills that did more varied things. Maybe trim the weapons to be 1h/2H/launcher/throwing and then add a few more skills there. I'd have no idea what they'd do, but it feels better with the dog dudes.
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Jan 24, 2017 03:43
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Carados posted:I feel dog dudes would be more interesting if there was more skills that did more varied things. Maybe trim the weapons to be 1h/2H/launcher/throwing and then add a few more skills there. I'd have no idea what they'd do, but it feels better with the dog dudes. You might be more interested in the Ieoh Jian Council god that's currently being tested on CBRO, then. Here's a breakdown, though I'm not sure how up to date it is as I've been busy trying to piece together Cyno to give it a test or follow development.
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Jan 24, 2017 04:00
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Mimics TBH I'm not sure why they are even still in the game since they don't do anything now. Still wish you could pay money to make whatever they are mimicking into a real item/dungeon feature.
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Jan 24, 2017 04:25
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I didn't express that well... I feel like the idea of the jack of all trades character who can spread out more effectively be but be less totally effective when maxed isn't as cool as it sounds when you look at the skill list. The magic school part works well, it just seems like doing the same for weapon skills isn't as cool because you can't really use more than one at a time. It's a cool idea that doesn't seem to fit the game. Edit : also I think weapon skills are bit less interesting for the same reasons.
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Jan 24, 2017 04:31
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That's why the weapon skills should be renamed to stuff like "lunging" "cleaving" and "riposting" and give you increasingly strong or reliable versions of the named powers as they're leveled up.
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Jan 24, 2017 04:38
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Ferrinus posted:That's why the weapon skills should be renamed to stuff like "lunging" "cleaving" and "riposting" and give you increasingly strong or reliable versions of the named powers as they're leveled up. And if you made one skill "smashing" I would name every character from there on Nigel.
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Jan 24, 2017 13:05
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Please add wrestling holds and throwing dudes across the room to UC thanks
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Jan 24, 2017 14:31
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Floodkiller posted:You know, I think this might be the way to go forward. Removing the hard cap, but implementing a soft cap through applying an anti manual effect (-4 to -8) to any skill at 14 or above. I'll have to look into how manuals apply their bonus and go from there. This is probably an incredibly dumb idea, but maybe the cap could be tied to # of runes collected? It seems like the main issue is that the race is fun, right up until about when you get your first rune and you have nothing to train any more. Maybe either increase the limit for each run collected (capped after 4 or 5), or give you the opportunity to bust cap on one skill when you collect a rune. Different, potentially flavorful (maybe the race can absorb the rune's power, somehow?), and could encourage some interesting behavior in that it would potentially become beneficial to try and swoop up runes as quick as possible rather than, for example, doing all but the bottom floor of both lair branches before going for either of them.
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Jan 24, 2017 14:49
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Internet Kraken posted:Mimics Aaahh!!! real monsters
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Jan 24, 2017 15:05
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Floodkiller posted:You know, I think this might be the way to go forward. Removing the hard cap, but implementing a soft cap through applying an anti manual effect (-4 to -8) to any skill at 14 or above. I'll have to look into how manuals apply their bonus and go from there. Instead of caps and appropriating anti-training or shifting apts, would it make any sense to re-appropriate the crosstraining code? Expand it so you get more crosstraining (60%?) and every skill is linked to at least one other thematically linked skill (hexes with charms, fire with earth, air with ice, necromancy with poison, etc), then throw a straight like -3(?) apt on all skills. With 60%/-3, you're roughly breaking even on XP thanks to cross training, but it's forced to distribute and keeping your skills lower.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:53
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rj54x posted:This is probably an incredibly dumb idea, but maybe the cap could be tied to # of runes collected? It seems like the main issue is that the race is fun, right up until about when you get your first rune and you have nothing to train any more. Maybe either increase the limit for each run collected (capped after 4 or 5), or give you the opportunity to bust cap on one skill when you collect a rune. Different, potentially flavorful (maybe the race can absorb the rune's power, somehow?), and could encourage some interesting behavior in that it would potentially become beneficial to try and swoop up runes as quick as possible rather than, for example, doing all but the bottom floor of both lair branches before going for either of them. I don't think tying species benefits to runes is a good idea; experience is a good enough species progress incentive. Rune benefits may work better as a god idea. mormonpartyboat posted:Instead of caps and appropriating anti-training or shifting apts, would it make any sense to re-appropriate the crosstraining code? Expand it so you get more crosstraining (60%?) and every skill is linked to at least one other thematically linked skill (hexes with charms, fire with earth, air with ice, necromancy with poison, etc), then throw a straight like -3(?) apt on all skills. With 60%/-3, you're roughly breaking even on XP thanks to cross training, but it's forced to distribute and keeping your skills lower. This leaves the species in a really lovely spot until they reach a point where the cross training can actually catch up enough to break even or give benefits, but I'll consider looking into testing it if properly communicating the soft cap is too difficult.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:01
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mormonpartyboat posted:Instead of caps and appropriating anti-training or shifting apts, would it make any sense to re-appropriate the crosstraining code? Expand it so you get more crosstraining (60%?) and every skill is linked to at least one other thematically linked skill (hexes with charms, fire with earth, air with ice, necromancy with poison, etc), then throw a straight like -3(?) apt on all skills. With 60%/-3, you're roughly breaking even on XP thanks to cross training, but it's forced to distribute and keeping your skills lower. This is an interesting idea and I would like to see it in some other context. Like a race or god that gives you random crosstraining bonuses, incentivizing different skill combinations and unique builds in each game. e: God of Wandering Fitzy Fitz fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 17:08
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Floodkiller posted:
You know what I still don't fully understand? On top of skills costing more "skill points" to raise as they go up, the cost of those skill points in XP goes up as you gain XP. So there's this hidden cost that you're getting less and less bang for your buck as you progress, on top of the usual xp per level curve. That's why a pot of XP that might take a skill from 0 to 8 at XL2 will raise it considerably less at XL12 even if you're also starting from 0 skill. It's also another reason it's so effective at the start of the game to throw almost all your XP into a high apt weapon skill or attack spell school(s). I would expect that to work out so you got the same number of skill points per level. Then your skill curve is therefore affected by it costing more XP to gain each level as well as skills costing more to raise as they go up, and both of these mechanics are fairly transparent. It's how every fantasy game / MMORPG I can think of works with skills/talents/perks. But in Crawl there is this different accelerating ration for XP to skill that is related to total XP and it's mysterious and nonsensical as gently caress from my perspective.
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Jan 24, 2017 19:07
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crawl is hacks on top of hacks, god bless.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:15
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Experience value for kills is a fundamentally weird idea that games get built around. Skill experience costs going up with total experience is a way of making it easier to get your first few skills early in the dungeon to useful levels without also making it trivial to max several skills out. This could also be done by flattening out the experience curve, but that would remove any incentive or reward for intentionally seeking out difficult enemies to kill (e.g. sponging experience from Slime for a low turncount win).
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Jan 24, 2017 20:18
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I'm getting a bit frustrated with the game. I'm consistently able to clear d:15, Lair, and orc, but I step one foot into shoals and I'm mobbed by 30 creatures and engulfed to death where nothing before posed the slightest challenge. Okay I'll go try spider instead, I get swarmed and orbed to death. What are you supposed to do when you go in there? Keep in mind this was with me wearing +10 artifact plate and wielding an artifact triple sword and skills to fit. I just got demolished. I have no idea how sneaky characters are supposed to survive either. When you go down to orc and run into a pack of 30 ogres, what possible recourse does a stabber have? I understand I am just dumb because people beat this game all the time, but I wanted to vent a little.
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Jan 24, 2017 23:45
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I also think sneaky characters are born to die but I'd advise you to have a ranged option regardless of your character. Ranged capabilities can be a ranged weapons, evocation, or invocation. You probably also want a source of summoning from Evo, invo, or spells. Even garbage summons distract and eat fire.
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Jan 24, 2017 23:50
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When you play as a sneaky character you don't try to fight 30 ogres. You sneak around and pick them off one at a time. It takes some practice to be good at builds that aren't just Approach->Smash, and most of them aren't as good, but they're doable. Usually my stealthy builds involve some hexes or ranged attacks.
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Jan 24, 2017 23:55
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you're supposed to lure enemies back to stairs whenever you see them and stairdance this is how you consistently win with every character type, except as ranged damage casters you use spells after walking back to stairs and then go up stairs before an enemy reaches you so you can rest your MP back. you should, broadly speaking, not walk towards enemies when you meet them
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Jan 24, 2017 23:56
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Kaedric posted:I'm getting a bit frustrated with the game. I'm consistently able to clear d:15, Lair, and orc, but I step one foot into shoals and I'm mobbed by 30 creatures and engulfed to death where nothing before posed the slightest challenge. Okay I'll go try spider instead, I get swarmed and orbed to death. What are you supposed to do when you go in there? Keep in mind this was with me wearing +10 artifact plate and wielding an artifact triple sword and skills to fit. I just got demolished. -Get some ranged options! You'll want them in Spider for orb spiders. It's not required for Shoals, but makes it a shitload easier so you're not getting pelted as you walk over to melee things. -Don't be afraid to stairdance, lure, and run away like hell. Ideally you'll only fight one pack of enemies at a time instead of multiple packs. Shoals specifically: -rmsl is your friend. -Avoid hanging around in the water - merfolk move faster in it and can cross deep water, making it harder to back up to safe territory before they catch up. -Invisiblity chumps 90% of the enemies here. Be extra cautious around the few things(especially Aquamancers) that have sInv. Spider specifically: -rPois helps a lot. sInv is handy for ghost moths. -Poison-branded attacks(weapons, needles, etc) chump most of the enemies here. Stabbers: -You're using hexes, right? Stabbers can't rely on stealth to stab things forever. -You'll need a backup option eventually, since you'll start getting a lot of high MR/MR-immune enemies around Vaults. Could be a branded quick blade. Could be a good long blade. Could be offensive magic. Pick whatever works best with the options you have.
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Jan 24, 2017 23:59
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I use hex wands on orb spiders and usually only explore enough to find downstairs in shoals. You could do this for every lair branch of course, but shoals is the most annoying
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Jan 25, 2017 00:01
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Sound advice. I think maybe part of the problem I am having is that the first 30-40 minutes you play is super boring as a smashmans and you end up tabbing to victory against things that don't even scratch you. I think I figured I could hulk smash spiders and eels and it didn't quite work out. I honestly haven't really explored magic at all yet because I feel like there's a billion spells and I have no idea which ones are worthwhile or not, not to mention I can't cast for poo poo in full plate.
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Jan 25, 2017 01:17
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You can safely continue ignoring magic until you get a couple of wins, just get evo or throwing or something if you want a ranged option.
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Jan 25, 2017 01:22
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Kaedric posted:Sound advice. I think maybe part of the problem I am having is that the first 30-40 minutes you play is super boring as a smashmans and you end up tabbing to victory against things that don't even scratch you. I think I figured I could hulk smash spiders and eels and it didn't quite work out. I honestly haven't really explored magic at all yet because I feel like there's a billion spells and I have no idea which ones are worthwhile or not, not to mention I can't cast for poo poo in full plate. Here are all the spells that are worth casting as a smashman in plate once you get fighting/dodging/armor to 12 or so.... Massively useful, worth the investment on any non-GDA build. Each one of these spells will save your rear end in multiple situations: Level 1 Summon Butterflies Level 2 Blink Repel Missiles Level 3 Regeneration Also very useful: Level 1 Corpse Rot Animate Skeleton Level 2 Song of Slaying Corpse Rot Level 3 Spectral Weapon You also should invest in throwing, crossbows, or bows around that time. The purpose of ranged is not to kill monsters but to damage them enough as they come in so the math turns in your favor. You'd be surprised how much difference a hand crossbow at 8-10 skill can make.
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Jan 25, 2017 04:27
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