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SW Ep. 9: Ren and Snokey.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:09
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Lock, Stock, and Two Snoking Barrels
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Jan 24, 2017 18:31
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As Anakin Skywalker snoke one morning from uneasy dreams, he found himself transformed into a gigantic droid.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:41
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Kylo Ren is a snoker, but he wants to be a vader
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Jan 24, 2017 18:59
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Luke was already the "last Jedi" in Return of the Jedi, the title of which was supposed to signify both the return of Anakin Skywalker and the impending revival of the Jedi Order as a whole, with Leia probably being Luke's first student. Of course TFA went off in an entirely different direction merely for the sake of mirroring the fan-pleasing status quo at the beginning of A New Hope, even though the status quo of Episode VII should logically have more closely mirrored that of the The Phantom Menace, and departed from there. The decisions to wipe out the revived Jedi Order off-screen, largely ignore the significance of the re-established Republic, and bring back the Empire as the antagonists were clearly wholly commercial in nature, born out of a desire to avoid any troublesome associations with the prequels, regardless of what made the most sense for the story as implied by the concluding events of ROTJ.General Dog posted:Star Wars was never about mysteries though. Now if they pay off the mysteries that have been set up in TFA in a satisfying way then that's fine, but it's definitely a departure. From episodes 4 through 3 you never finish a movie feeling like you have incomplete information about everyone's character and motivations (with the possible exception of Yoda's "there is another", which turns out to be a red herring anyway). That will still only be a partial redemption, though, because TFA itself will forever remain a movie which is little more than an extended teaser trailer which is about nothing and signifies nothing. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 19:53
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Cnut the Great posted:Luke was already the "last Jedi" in Return of the Jedi, the title of which was supposed to signify both the return of Anakin Skywalker and the impending revival of the Jedi Order as a whole, with Leia probably being Luke's first student. Of course TFA went off in an entirely different direction merely for the sake of mirroring the fan-pleasing status quo at the beginning of A New Hope, even though the status quo of Episode VII should logically have more closely mirrored that of the The Phantom Menace, and departed from there. The decisions to wipe out the revived Jedi Order off-screen, largely ignore the significance of the re-established Republic, and bring back the Empire as the antagonists were clearly wholly commercial in nature, born out of a desire to avoid any troublesome associations with the prequels, regardless of what made the most sense for the story as implied by the concluding events of ROTJ. puts on SMG hat Ah, but we already know what happened between Episode VI and Episode VII! It was called the prequel trilogy! takes off and burns SMG hat
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Jan 24, 2017 19:57
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Thank you for snoking.
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Jan 24, 2017 19:59
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RBA Starblade posted:Thank you for snoking. Fun fact: Thank You For Smoking was bankrolled by Peter Thiel, who is now one of the highest advisors to Donald Trump.
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Jan 24, 2017 19:59
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Cnut the Great posted:Luke was already the "last Jedi" in Return of the Jedi, the title of which was supposed to signify both the return of Anakin Skywalker and the impending revival of the Jedi Order as a whole, with Leia probably being Luke's first student. Of course TFA went off in an entirely different direction merely for the sake of mirroring the fan-pleasing status quo at the beginning of A New Hope, even though the status quo of Episode VII should logically have more closely mirrored that of the The Phantom Menace, and departed from there. The decisions to wipe out the revived Jedi Order off-screen, largely ignore the significance of the re-established Republic, and bring back the Empire as the antagonists were clearly wholly commercial in nature, born out of a desire to avoid any troublesome associations with the prequels, regardless of what made the most sense for the story as implied by the concluding events of ROTJ. I've seen the "Luke's Jedi get wiped out" quoted from rough drafts since before the prequels were released. I think it's what happens in the EU as well; I never read it because I read the stupid one with the Mofference first as a kid and just thought "gently caress this poo poo."
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Jan 24, 2017 20:09
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DO NOT PURSUE DARTH VADER!
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Jan 24, 2017 20:09
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21 Muns posted:puts on SMG hat That was and still is true if you choose to consider the Lucas saga in isolation, but that's only because in that case the prequel trilogy itself comes directly after Return of the Jedi and acts as a sequel trilogy. And the reason it can work in that capacity is because there's an established Jedi Order and an established Republic, just as ROTJ utterly necessitates as the status quo for any following chapter. The prequel trilogy was in fact almost certainly designed to work that way. But once the idea of a literal sequel trilogy became a reality, the demands placed on any chapter following ROTJ remained the same. The story arc of the sequels obviously should have remained wholly distinct from both the OT and the PT, but the basic starting conditions of the story should still have been roughly the same as those in the prequels. Otherwise it's just a betrayal of the story. Imagine if the original six were made in order: Episode III ends with the Jedi Order decimated, the Empire ascendant, Obi-Wan Kenobi in hiding on Tatooine, the Death Star under construction, Luke under the care of the Larses, and Leia under the care of the Royal Family of Alderaan. The next movie, Episode IV, even though it takes place almost twenty years later, is entirely faithful to the status quo set up by Episode III. Everything that is implied to be so by the end of Episode III is still the case in Episode IV, with only natural and logical changes wrought by the passage of time coming into play in the narrative. No major, non-contingent events that completely change the course of the story--like a new Jedi Order having sprung up, or the Empire having ceased to be the dominant force in the galaxy, or Ben having abandoned Luke and moved to a different planet--take place off-screen in between the two films. It's all very artfully done, as the storytelling ethos of Star Wars has up to this point been to use each episode to portray the most important and dramatically compelling events in the generational saga of the Skywalkers, not to intentionally confuse the audience with inexplicable mysteries and jolting, off-screen right turns in the plot. In comparison, everything about the way the story of TFA was conceived is just sloppy, unaesthetic, and totally jarring when viewed as a sequel to ROTJ. It is not a sequel to ROTJ. It doesn't work as one. It's a franchise reboot, not a true sequel. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 20:24
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Hodgepodge posted:I've seen the "Luke's Jedi get wiped out" quoted from rough drafts since before the prequels were released. I have a hard time believing this. There were no rough drafts for the sequels at any point, let alone before the prequels, that were substantive enough to include anything this concrete about the potential plot. quote:I think it's what happens in the EU as well; I never read it because I read the stupid one with the Mofference first as a kid and just thought "gently caress this poo poo." I'm not a big EU connoisseur, but I do know that the Jedi Order was never wiped out in it. One of the things the EU did right was following ROTJ's lead by doing things like featuring a New Jedi Order under Luke and a New Republic and constructing stories around those concepts. It kind of whiffed the ball by also dragging its feet on making Leia a Jedi, but I believe it eventually followed through on that as well.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:30
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RBA Starblade posted:Thank you for snoking. Hux and Ren: Up in Snoke Hux and Ren: Still Snokin Hux and Ren: Things are First all Order Born in East Jedha
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Jan 24, 2017 20:31
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Cnut the Great posted:It kind of whiffed the ball by also dragging its feet on making Leia a Jedi, but I believe it eventually followed through on that as well. Is it possible for Leia to be a Jedi, but not a Jedi warrior? Like, the Force can help you block laser bolts with a lightsaber, but can't it also help you be good with reading people's needs and negotiating and governing and being a good parent? The prequels (and Yoda) seem to suggest that those are all more valuable uses of the Force than hacking people up.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:37
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I wonder if you'll ever write even half as much about things you like about the new movies. I mean, you keep saying you like TFA, so surely it can't be that hard to.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:43
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Queering Wheel posted:I wonder if you'll ever write even half as much about things you like about the new movies. I mean, you keep saying you like TFA, so surely it can't be that hard to. There's only so many ways you can write "it has a likable cast". The movie's harshest critics and its biggest fans seem to agree that TFA has its pleasures, and that those pleasures are fairly superficial. vv haha, quote before typo edit General Dog fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 20:55
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General Dog posted:Is it possible for Leia to be a Jedi, but not a Jedi warrior? Like, the Force can help you block laser bolts with a lightsaber, but can't it also help you be good with reading people's needs and negotiating and governing and being a good parent? The prequels (and Yoda) seem to suggest that those are all more valuable uses of the Force than hacking people up. Of course, but TFA doesn't seriously portray any of those things when it comes to Leia. The Jedi are indeed diplomats first and foremost. I would imagine Leia would be the kind of Jedi like we see in the beginning of TPM, where they act to settle disputes using their skills of negotiation and persuasion, but also don't hesitate to bring out their swords when confronted with foul play. That's essentially Leia's character to a tee, anyway. I think it should have been important for the sequels to establish that Leia was a Jedi, that she was the first of the new order trained by Luke, as was logically implied to be the case going forward by Return of Jedi. I mean, she deserves it. She's the heir to Anakin's legacy as much as Luke is. The thinly-sketched "General Leia" we got instead is almost an insult. Leia was already a general in all but name in the originals, anyway. It's nothing but a token upgrade, and is actually just a regression of her character more than anything else, because she's just back leading another Rebellion against the Empire instead of advancing to other roles. This exchange in ROTJ exists for a reason: quote:LEIA Being a Jedi is a much higher calling than being a general in charge of an army. Queering Wheel posted:I wonder if you'll ever write even half as much about things you like about the new movies. I mean, you keep saying you like TFA, so surely it can't be that hard to. I have written nice things about TFA. I've consistently said they're decent sci fi action movies with a likable cast, because that's the truth, and I don't want to be unfair. There are things I like about them, and I certainly don't hate them. That doesn't mean I don't find them disappointing as Star Wars movies. You should probably keep in mind that you're free to write as much as you want about how much you like them. edit: General Dog posted:There's only so many ways you can write "it has a likable cast". The movie's harshest critics and its biggest cans seem to agree that TFA has its pleasures, and that those pleasures are fairly superficial. Heh.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:56
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quote:Being a Jedi is a much higher calling than being a general in charge of an army. It seems like a pretty hefty downgrade after the prequels.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:00
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Nothing we saw actually precludes Leia from being Jedi-trained.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:02
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A few embarrassing moments aside, Leia was actually developed very well in the original EU novels. She becomes a very important politician and actually has to deal with governmental problems, not just blowing up a new Death Star every few years(although she did that too).
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Jan 24, 2017 21:06
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I kind of feel like that undersells the fact that the likeability of the cast is in part due to the actors selling some very effective and interesting characters. If you expect him to be Darth Vader, Kylo Ren is a pissy little manchild; however he's actually seriously awesome as someone trying to be Darth Vader without understanding how much genuine pain and suffering it took to make Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader and being pushed into the hosed up path of inflicting that suffering on himself. It's just that all the analysis inevitably ends up in pure speculation at this point. Star Wars 1977 is the same way, though, albeit with the extra pleasure of all the little things that give away that Lucas had not actually more than vague ideas for the sequels at that point. Speculation: "Vader, did appear to Kylo, but what he showed him was not the power of the Dark Side. I wonder if Ben Solo was ever told Anakin's story, or if he was left to see it through myth and rumour?
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Jan 24, 2017 21:07
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Cnut the Great posted:The Jedi are indeed diplomats first and foremost. What do you base this on? Their appearance as negotiators at the start of Episode One is met with terror.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:18
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"We don't dare go against the Jedi" - a normal response to some diplomats showing up on official business.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:21
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sassassin posted:What do you base this on? The Nemodians were also uo to no good, and had what are basically two utterly amazing cops that won't take a bribe in their house right next to their stash of "medical" battle droids.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:23
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sassassin posted:"We don't dare go against the Jedi" - a normal response to some diplomats showing up on official business. They nominally act as diplomats, but by acting as the effective military of the Republic, they have become so wedded to the Republic and its ruling classes that they are actually ruling through fear like the Sith. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 21:26
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Roth posted:The Nemodians were also uo to no good, and had what are basically two utterly amazing cops that won't take a bribe in their house right next to their stash of "medical" battle droids. Yeah, space cops, not diplomats. "The ambassadors are Jedi Knights, I think" "Oh poo poo"
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Jan 24, 2017 21:26
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Even their role as diplomats is hardly as neutral parties, they come representing the Republic and its interests. Ambassadors armed with overwhelming magical force more powerful than the Death Star, in Vader's own words. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 21:29
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"Ah, the negotiator! General Kenobi" Grievous laughs because Obi-Wan is a hilarious blunt instrument that doesn't ever negotiate, he just starts swinging and has fun. They'll free the chancellor by force or not at all, it's their first option.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:31
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I'm not sure if either description would cover what the Jedi do. It's more like they'll try for a peaceful, diplomatic aporoach if they can, but they will use force when threatened or feel that they have to. For what it's worth, there are plenty of times when Jedi show uo in The Clone Wars to negotiate, and aren't met with fear by whoever they're trying to negotiate with. The Nemodians in Episode 1 are more afraid because they're up to some sketchy poo poo, as shown by the Viceroy's worry about their invasion not being legal, so they really wouldn't want Jedi around to mess up their plans.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:32
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Roth posted:It's more like they'll try for a peaceful, diplomatic aporoach if they can, but they will use force when threatened or feel that they have to. Where does this happen in the films? I'm just not seeing the link. They're a godawful choice of diplomat to begin with as one of their known abilities is to influence minds ("What, you think you're some kind of jedi... mind tricks don't work on me") so how could you ever trust the results of any discussion/negotiation?
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Jan 24, 2017 21:35
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"These Federation types are cowards. The negotiations will be short." Their intention isn't to work out a mutually beneficial solution, their presence is supposed to intimidate and make the aliens back down. Five minutes later Obi-Wan laughs about this because everything went tits up in a fun way for him.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:37
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The problem is that there should be Jedi on every world not on "missions," but as members of society (even if still living monastically) and loyal to their own societies as well as the Jedi. This is somewhat reflected in the Jedi ideal; this is why the Jedi are initially okay with Dooku as a leader of the Separatists. In principle, a Jedi defecting from the Order to represent political ideals is normal and acceptable, as long as the Jedi plays nice. So Windu and another Master give glowing defenses of Dooku when Padme suspects him of targeting her for assassination. When Kenobi sees that Dooku is serious about creating an alternative to the Republic, ready and willing to fight for it, and hostile to the Jedi's role in it, he starts to consider him a traitor. That the Jedi and the Republic are inseparable is the real problem.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:39
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sassassin posted:Where does this happen in the films? I'm just not seeing the link. They didn't start laserswording until they got nerve gassed, regardless what you think of how "diplomatic" it would have gone they started peacefully.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:39
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RBA Starblade posted:They didn't start laserswording until they got nerve gassed, regardless what you think of how "diplomatic" it would have gone they started peacefully. They only dare release the nerve gas at the order of their secret Sith Lord master who has the back. You aren't necessarily meant to "get" this take on the Jedi at that point on first viewing. For the whole first movie, you have the perspective of Jinn, who isn't trusted by the council because he is willing to deviate from their ideology and represents something closer to the actual Jedi ideal. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 21:41
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sassassin posted:Where does this happen in the films? I'm just not seeing the link. Uh, in the opening scene of Phantom Menace where they sit around drinking tea while waiting for the Nemodians to arrive, before the Nemodians try to murder them in response?
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Jan 24, 2017 21:44
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RBA Starblade posted:regardless what you think of how "diplomatic" it would have gone they started peacefully. What are you talking about?
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Jan 24, 2017 21:48
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sassassin posted:"We don't dare go against the Jedi" - a normal response to some diplomats showing up on official business. The Jedi are known for making Good Deals for the Republic. The Gungans are going to build a seawall, and they're going to pay for it.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:49
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"This is a task for local security, not Jedi. It's overkill. Investigation is implied in our mandate." The Jedi are, first and foremost, idealised samurai space cop protectors of Truth and Freedom in the Not diplomats (although they can perform that function... sort of... no one reacts well to it).
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Jan 24, 2017 21:54
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sassassin posted:"Ah, the negotiator! General Kenobi" Seriously, it's a hilarious joke. Like when Obi Wan says Sith Lords are their "specialty" and then gets thrown into a wall - again - by Count Dooku.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:54
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It's important to note that they don't normally need to resort to fighting at the point of the beginning of Episode 1. Normally the Jedi showing up is enough to force a negotiated resolution of some kind. By the time the Clone Wars have started, it's literally a joke.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:56
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