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Hunt11 posted:Going back to D-Day. While at that point Germany would have inevitably fallen, the cost to achieve said victory would have been much greater as even with the Germans still being forced to man the Atlantic wall that would have been less of a drain on resources then having to replace units lost due to the Allied advance. I think the point that this turns into a gay black hitler is that we're handwaving the question of "how did D-Day fail" because the question will depend on that. We're acting as if the invasion force collectively tripped flat on their face, when realistically the nazis would have taken losses repelling the invasion, and the allies will be trying again. (Like, does the scheduled invasion in southern France still happen?)
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Jan 24, 2017 17:32
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Here's a fun question for the milhist thread: what is the NATO symbol for Corps Artillery? SEE IF YOU ARE SMARTER THAN A BUNCH OF SENIOR CAREER MILITARY TYPES
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Jan 24, 2017 17:35
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bewbies posted:Here's a fun question for the milhist thread: what is the NATO symbol for Corps Artillery? 
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Jan 24, 2017 17:37
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Fangz posted:I think the point that this turns into a gay black hitler is that we're handwaving the question of "how did D-Day fail" because the question will depend on that. We're acting as if the invasion force collectively tripped flat on their face, when realistically the nazis would have taken losses repelling the invasion, and the allies will be trying again. (Like, does the scheduled invasion in southern France still happen?) Yeah I don't really have an answer to that unfortunately. Just wondering about the hypothetical situation where, for ~~reasons~~ the Allies never do anything more in the west beyond strategic bombing and getting stuck in the mountains in Italy and the USSR has to finish the land war on its own. Maybe western europe has really bad weather over the channel for 10 years straight, I dunno. Was Germany ever close to getting the atomic bomb? I guess is if they had that, then it might give the soviets a hard time limit, but literally of my knowledge about german nuclear weapons comes from video games (and not even very good ones) so I don't dare make a statement about how plausible that situation is.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:37
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Ainsley McTree posted:Was Germany ever close to getting the atomic bomb? No.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:38
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bewbies posted:Here's a fun question for the milhist thread: what is the NATO symbol for Corpse Artillery? 
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Jan 24, 2017 17:39
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no no no that's a corps of artillery.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:47
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Ainsley McTree posted:Was Germany ever close to getting the atomic bomb? I guess is if they had that, then it might give the soviets a hard time limit, but literally of my knowledge about german nuclear weapons comes from video games (and not even very good ones) so I don't dare make a statement about how plausible that situation is. No and Yes. The reality of the Nazi atomic bomb is that they purged the physicists who would eventually do a lot of the hard work in the US, and then they made a critical early error (about the amount of fissile material required) that successfully convinced them the bomb was impossible. So, realistically even given another decade they probably wouldn't have made the bomb on their own, because they weren't even really working on it. But what kept them from making the bomb was a small thing, so that knowing some small information about the Manhattan project would have put them on to the right track, and then it turns from a scientific problem into a fairly doable industrial problem. EDIT: This is a fascinating read: Secretly recorded transcripts of captured Nazi physicists on learning of the bombing of Hiroshima: http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf/eng/English101.pdf Fangz fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 17:49
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howe_sam posted:Based on the one undergrad class I took almost twenty years ago, I'm convinced this is the only right answer, tell the French to pound sand after WW2 like FDR wanted. Ho and his crew had been working for Vietnamese independence for thirty years by that point, and nobody the French were going to prop up had the same cred. Funny thing is that while still being Communist, Vietnam IS an US ally today in SEA, preferring the help of the old foe against China's land and sea border claims than the alternative.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:49
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Fangz posted:No and Yes. The reality of the Nazi atomic bomb is that they purged the physicists who would eventually do a lot of the hard work in the US, and then they made a critical early error (about the amount of fissile material required) that successfully convinced them the bomb was impossible. So, realistically even given another decade they probably wouldn't have made the bomb on their own, because they weren't even really working on it. A bigger obstacle was that they weren't even working on a bomb - that had been shelved as an "after the war" project. Germany's wartime nuclear research was focused on getting atomic power plants (which would have been extremely useful), and failed at that.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:52
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Plutonis posted:Funny thing is that while still being Communist, Vietnam IS an US ally today in SEA, preferring the help of the old foe against China's land and sea border claims than the alternative. North Vietnam/Vietnam was always more of a USSR ally than a Chinese ally; in fact, a few years after the end of the Vietnam War, the Chinese actually invaded the country. My understanding is that Ho Chi Minh et al were interested in independence, not in being anyone's vassal.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:53
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Gnoman posted:A bigger obstacle was that they weren't even working on a bomb - that had been shelved as an "after the war" project. Germany's wartime nuclear research was focused on getting atomic power plants (which would have been extremely useful), and failed at that. Right but like I said, this flowed out of a single initial maths error. So they weren't close in the time sense, but they were very close in the 'what if' sense.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:54
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MANime in the sheets posted:IMO that sounds like it was a one-off situation, it generally doesn't sound like he commands much more than a Puma*. I think it looks more like a Warthog.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:56
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Fangz posted:No and Yes. The reality of the Nazi atomic bomb is that they purged the physicists who would eventually do a lot of the hard work in the US, and then they made a critical early error (about the amount of fissile material required) that successfully convinced them the bomb was impossible. So, realistically even given another decade they probably wouldn't have made the bomb on their own, because they weren't even really working on it. Yeah, but I don't know that they could have afforded that industrial effort, and certainly couldn't have spent enough to actually beat the US to it. Getting back to the failed D-day thing, extending the war until August 1945 would have given German nuclear scientists some first hand observational data.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:56
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I do seriously recommend people read that transcript I linked though, http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf/eng/English101.pdf it's a truly fascinating document.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:57
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The Krengel Diary Part 21 Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 Part 9 Part 10 Part 11 Part 12 Part 13 Part 14 Part 15 Part 16 Part 17 Part 18 Part 19 Part 20 1943 15 January: At 7 AM all Hell broke loose; a surprise heavy attack with tanks by the enemy on our positions. We opened fire with 50mm and 75mm guns. Our Pumas* guard our eventual retreat over the pass. 8:30 AM: There are several enemy tanks in front of our position; these are US General Grant tanks and take a lot of punishment. I fire 15 rounds and the first Grant explodes but the others keep coming. Our orders are to stay put, no retreat. We go back 300 meters and engage the two other Grants. We score nine hits but they still keep coming. One of our Pumas is hit. SSgt.Bohme was killed, shot in the neck Herbert Groger was killed as he attempted to jump out of the turret hatch of the Puma* he was in. The Puma* is wrecked - two 40mm AT shells went straight in it and exploded. 1st Lt. Wille is wounded badly. A Kubelwagen comes up and takes him then races off to the rear. I escape with 5 nasty cuts from shrapnel. Now we are executing a fighting retreat. We cannot hold out but our 75mm PaK gives us time to get through the pass. The firing stopped once we got through. I received a morphine injection from a medic then a field ambulance picked me up and took me for treatment to Fascia Field Hospital. Here Field Marshall Rommel sees me and congratulates me on the Grant killing, plus 15 other hits on enemy tanks. He said they were confirmed by 1st Lt. Wille who is also in the same hospital, badly wounded but not in immediate danger. I demand to return to my unit as I seem, to myself anyway, to be fit. The request is granted just as the morphine takes effect and I sort of fall into a half sleep. 16 January: I report back to my unit; a new replacement for 1st Lt.Wille is already there, a 1st Lt. Quandt. Since I am not in perfectly fit condition, I sit and ride in the back of the ammunition halftrack. Confirmation of the destroyed tank is given to me by the Group Commander. Again the British artillery fires at us and we retreat via Sedala to Benimidi, marching at night to avoid enemy fighter-bombers. 17 January: We retreat further but stop at several passes to hold back the enemy who is pursuing us relentlessly. Just before we reach Benimidi, one of our 75mm PaK's and the mobile flak on the HT run into one of our unguarded mine belts. No casualties, but the equipment is wrecked. We dash through Benimidi. I am suffering from terrible bowel cramps because of the morphine injections. 18 January: The road is very bad but we reach Tahuma. We see a lot of retreating traffic here as we march on to a point 6 miles east of Tahuma. The next morning we retreat to Castel Benito, south of Tripoli, with enemy aircraft attacking. There was one US Tomahawk shot down by a lone Bf-109. We arrive in Azizia on the 20th. The shrapnel wound in my leg is hurting so I am ordered back to the supply column and then on to the hospital for new bandages. I then return with a Panzer to our Battle Group. I sleep inside the tank. The roads are all one big traffic jam. Some of our group has left toward the west. I follow their route the next morning in a Puma* to Zuara, about 60 km from the Tunisian border. A radio operator tries his best to make contact with my group but all he knows is that they were going to Gabes, west of the border. I stay here all day; several attacks by US and British aircraft. By the 23rd I have rejoined my group and we cross the border. The jeep breaks down with engine problems. We hitch the thing to a Puma* and reach a palm grove late afternoon. We are lucky because we have the radio in the jeep. We hear on the radio that our forces in Stalingrad are surrounded. 25 January: I have been at a field ambulance station for treatment of my shrapnel wounds then I was transferred to Staff Hospital. Two other men of my group are there. We receive flour, sugar, and eggs so we cook on our little gasoline stoves all day in the hospital tent. My leg is swollen and I cannot walk much. By the next day the swelling had gone down considerably. 30 January: Today is the 10th anniversary of the founding of the 3rd Reich. We make omelets as the radio broadcasts Hermann Goering's sad speech about the Stalingrad situation. Later we listen to a proclamation by Dr. Goebbels. I stay in the hospital for treatment of my injuries until 5 February and leave the aid station at 5:00 PM and return to my unit.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:18
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EggsAisle posted:I'm interested in the guerilla resistance fighters of WW2, particularly in eastern Europe and Russia. What's an average day in the life of a resistance fighter? Do you work as a waiter by day, then go home and hold a secret meeting in your basement? Do you camp out in the wilderness near a transit route and ambush unsuspecting convoys? Do you ever get Allied supply drops? What's in them? (I don't need answers to these questions specifically; I'm mostly looking for Life in the Eastern European Resistance, One Day at a Time" kind of thing.) Women absolutely participated in warfare. My great-aunt was a medic, but she fought in the frontlines as well, and was shot and wounded during the battle of Trieste. As for resistance fighters, it really depends on the role. If you're openly fighting against the Nazis, you absolutely do not return to civilian life in occupied areas, because it gets you shot really, really, really, really fast. On the other hand, informants were vital parts of the resistance, and they had to stay at home to do their mission. What previous posters said about dugouts in the woods is mostly true, though Tito's Partizan often kept wide areas under their control in which life would return to semi-normal (plus total war economy, obviously) for the inhabitants and the fighters. It was possible for the place where you live to just be so out of the way that you could rely on not being bothered by anything short of a full scale extermination operation by alpine units (though if you were that remote, it also meant staying home at winter in wartime meant starving to death). The branch of the family my shooty great-aunt is from let the Partizans use their house as a hospital (absolutely not a fancy house by any means, but big enough to house a a fairly large family like mine was), and it only got burned once by fascist forces, and that was a consequence of it being used as part of a trap, since exposed hospitals were like catnip to the Ustaše (and some Chetniks, but not in this particular case) and they'd throw all caution to the wind just to get their hands on some mostly immobile prisoners. Obviously, the wounded were evacuated prior to this. On the other hand, winter meant having to infiltrate past Nazi ambushes waiting for them or starving to death. (there's a surprising amount of "or starving to death" decisions involved) Communities that supported the Partizans were organized in a democratic way. They'd elect local representatives (my great-grandpa from that branch was his community's representatives, and great-grandma was the local Women's Antifascist Council leader) who would in turn be present for and participate in the Partizan decisionmaking process for stuff that wasn't directly related to overall military strategy. Anyway, turns out, if you give people guns, a cause, and no oversight, some will turn into murderous chucklefucks. The Partizans counteracted this through harsh discipline. It's one of the reasons why they had so much popular support and how they set themselves apart from other guerilla groups - Partizan crimes against the civilian populace were punished extremely harshly by the Partizans themselves, and the victims were compensated if anyhow possible. My great-aunt's first husband was a commissar, and he, uh, wasn't a nice man. Obviously, the other side of that coin was that if the Partizans show up and officially say "We are fighting and dying for you, and we need all the support you can give", you absolutely give them everything they asked for. Might not seem like that much of a difference written down like this, but the difference between theft and taxation is an important one if you are trying to present yourself as the legitimate government of the country. Sorry this is mostly anecdote-y, but most of my knowledge about this comes from the stuff I talked about with my family (and mostly from one specific branch due to a mix of inconvenient deaths and my maternal grandpa being an rear end in a top hat who made it rather difficult to get in touch with any relatives on my mom's side of the family since they have a kneejerk hostile reaction to anyone connected to him - no particular "evil" thing on his part, he's just an extremely intelligent man who was a career officer and wasted all his potential on being a petty piece of poo poo to anyone he percieved as inferior) rather than actually learning about the movement.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:27
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Fangz posted:No and Yes. The reality of the Nazi atomic bomb is that they purged the physicists who would eventually do a lot of the hard work in the US, and then they made a critical early error (about the amount of fissile material required) that successfully convinced them the bomb was impossible. So, realistically even given another decade they probably wouldn't have made the bomb on their own, because they weren't even really working on it. They weren't close at all. Even if you write off any errors in cross-section estimates, they would not have been able to finish a bomb by the winter of '44/'45, no matter what Heisenberg says. The reasons are industrial, engineering, and bureaucracy related, rather than anything to do with the physics of fission. The only reason the Americans succeeded by '45 was because they had the resources (in funds, manpower, and power) to pursue multiple bombs designs, multiple isotope separation methods, and build the reactor complexes at Hanford. Germany lacked the manpower to do any of that, and as the German scientists correctly identify there, if they did have the resources, the Western Allies would have started bombing the complexes around the clock and tried all sorts of commando shenanigans to eliminate them.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:30
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Jobbo_Fett posted:
I struggle to think where they hit an M3 15 times with a 75 mm Pak and not knock it out. Only the front, at long range or at a high angle, maybe. Also 40 mm AP shot had no explosive filler, so it must have been something in the "Puma". Also the half-track theory falls apart here since they don't have turret hatches. What the hell were these things?
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Jan 24, 2017 18:39
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PittTheElder posted:They weren't close at all. Even if you write off any errors in cross-section estimates, they would not have been able to finish a bomb by the winter of '44/'45, no matter what Heisenberg says. The reasons are industrial, engineering, and bureaucracy related, rather than anything to do with the physics of fission. The only reason the Americans succeeded by '45 was because they had the resources (in funds, manpower, and power) to pursue multiple bombs designs, multiple isotope separation methods, and build the reactor complexes at Hanford. You can substitute the industrial capacity to pursue multiple designs and separation methods with luck at picking the right one. For example they proposed 5 different designs for the bomb, and in the end two of them proved successful. They considered 4 different types of isotope separation and 3 of the 4 were successful, and 1 was especially so. So if you were willing to assume some level of good fortune (or effective espionage), you could scale down a successful Manhattan project by several orders of magnitude. (For example, in terms of technically trained people, the Soviet nuclear program was a tenth the size of the US one.) I think the argument is more a matter of degree than anything, but in my view a Nazi bomb is definitely in the 'plausible' range of things, relative to out there ideas like 'what if they defeated the USSR' and 'what if Sealion was successful'. Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 18:41
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MG bns were also useful in the offensive; I believe I posted in here previously with an example where a mg bn was used to support an American attack in an indirect fire role because there was no or limited artillery. Edit here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3785167&perpage=40#post464221159
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Jan 24, 2017 18:42
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Speaking of the economy, what was life like when it came to buying and selling goods in the more peacefully occupied countries under the Nazis like Norway and Denmark? I've read stories of life there but they tend to be of the flavor of "Life goes on, except there's Nazis everywhere". There's not much talk about whether currency was still any good, if inflation hosed things up, if people reverted to bartering, etc.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:57
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Ensign Expendable posted:I struggle to think where they hit an M3 15 times with a 75 mm Pak and not knock it out. Only the front, at long range or at a high angle, maybe. I bet the Pumas are mostly 232s and the "37mm" is the SdKfz 233 with the PaK 37 (Short barreled 75mm) The M3 possibly took multiple hits from the PaK 38s
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Jan 24, 2017 19:08
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Jobbo_Fett posted:
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Jan 24, 2017 19:17
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Fangz posted:You can substitute the industrial capacity to pursue multiple designs and separation methods with luck at picking the right one. For example they proposed 5 different designs for the bomb, and in the end two of them proved successful. They considered 4 different types of isotope separation and 3 of the 4 were successful, and 1 was especially so. So if you were willing to assume some level of good fortune (or effective espionage), you could scale down a successful Manhattan project by several orders of magnitude. (For example, in terms of technically trained people, the Soviet nuclear program was a tenth the size of the US one.) Isn't saying that if they just got lucky the very definition of GBH? The most important reason why the US was able to develop the bomb was that they could do all the set up and testing in an area where the enemy could not even get close to the testing sight. Germany lacked that type of space and spare resources to make such testing feasible and with the cracked Enigma code and all that stuff, the moment the bomb even entered into production then the area would just be leveled by Allied bombing raids.
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Jan 24, 2017 19:22
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Fangz posted:I do seriously recommend people read that transcript I linked though, That was a good read thanks for sharing.
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Jan 24, 2017 19:23
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Fangz posted:I do seriously recommend people read that transcript I linked though, "Are you sad that we didn't make the bomb? Or are you sad the Americans did it better?" "Yes." Catty sarcasm goes way back it seems
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Jan 24, 2017 19:25
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Hunt11 posted:Isn't saying that if they just got lucky the very definition of GBH? The most important reason why the US was able to develop the bomb was that they could do all the set up and testing in an area where the enemy could not even get close to the testing sight. Germany lacked that type of space and spare resources to make such testing feasible and with the cracked Enigma code and all that stuff, the moment the bomb even entered into production then the area would just be leveled by Allied bombing raids. I'd say that the difference for Gay Black Hitler is that it requires sustained, implausible amounts of fortune and misfortune, that would require credulity stretching departures from reality to even get to step 1. "Let's suppose they picked option A straight off instead of trying A B and C" is not incredible to me, and neither is "what if the turn to the south didn't happen", compared to "let's suppose X million angry soviet troops just disappeared". The amount of luck required is very different. The question of 'would the allies have stopped it by bombing' is another issue. Maaybe that's true? But we don't have a lot of precedents to judge. It's not like Telemark where there would be a single prewar civilian facility built in range of allied bombers (and outside of substantial german air cover) that could be targetted. A real nuclear program would be distributed, it would be built in Germany, it would be hardened, and it would be kept as secret as possible, and they would spend substantial resources defending it. Edit: You also have to note that the amount of resources the US ploughed into the Manhattan Project is also a function of the fact that they had the correct maths for the critical mass - and much of that work was done by German exiles. Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 19:38
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Ensign Expendable posted:Also 40 mm AP shot had no explosive filler, so it must have been something in the "Puma". As far as I'm aware, both the Grant and the Lee version of the Medium Tank M3 used the US 37mm rather than the British 40mm. While there was no 37mm APHE, is it plausible that the "40mm AT shells" were really 37mm HE?
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Jan 24, 2017 19:38
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Almost certainly, but if the author is going to sperg about minor details, then so will I.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:04
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Ensign Expendable posted:I struggle to think where they hit an M3 15 times with a 75 mm Pak and not knock it out. Only the front, at long range or at a high angle, maybe. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Krengel just called every armoured car a Puma at this point  Wikipedia says this about the Puma quote:Many publications use the name "Puma" for this vehicle, but this was neither officially used nor was it a nickname. Never heard this one before, which doesn't really match up with what Krengel says or what anyone else has ever written about it. No matter what, it cannot be a 234. Any and all 234's were made from late 1943-onwards. So, if he's got an open-topped armoured car in North Africa like one of his drawings shows, it has to be a SdKfz 233. Anything with a turret would probably either be Krengel calling an open-top structure a turret or referencing another SdKfz 23* vehicle.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:15
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Fangz posted:I'd say that the difference for Gay Black Hitler is that it requires sustained, implausible amounts of fortune and misfortune, that would require credulity stretching departures from reality to even get to step 1. "Let's suppose they picked option A straight off instead of trying A B and C" is not incredible to me, and neither is "what if the turn to the south didn't happen", compared to "let's suppose X million angry soviet troops just disappeared". I will start from bottom to top. German exiles who due to German policies would never have been allowed in a lab other then to be a test subject for some messed up experiment. Also at this point Germany was just running out of resources and land, so any attempt to really build it and the host of other super weapons that the Nazis had such a hard on is just not plausible. Even if they could get a decent start on it, the protection plan you are suggesting just does not work for a nation that is on the verge of defeat, that knows splitting up such complex and delicate research will make it that much harder, and even if it was done so then all that does is make it easier for the Allies to seize the stuff before the war ends.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:16
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Jan 24, 2017 20:31
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Hunt11 posted:I will start from bottom to top. German exiles who due to German policies would never have been allowed in a lab other then to be a test subject for some messed up experiment. There's a great exchange recorded in The Making of the Atomic Bomb where Bohr and Teller are discussing uranium separation and Bohr insists "it can never be done unless you turn the United States into one huge factory." Several years later Bohr comes to America and Teller is supposed to brief him on the Manhattan Project. Bohr interrupts him and says "You see, I told you it couldn't be done without turning the whole country into a factory. You have done just that." Of course this is all as recalled by Teller, who was a bit of a dramatist
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Jan 24, 2017 21:02
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Fangz posted:I do seriously recommend people read that transcript I linked though, This was great thanks for the link. Loved this line: WEIZSÄCKER: History will record that the Americans and the English made a bomb, and that at the same time the Germans, under the HITLER regime, produced a workable engine. In other words, the peaceful development of the uranium engine was made in GERMANY under the HITLER regime, whereas the Americans and the English developed this ghastly weapon of war. It was surprising how quickly they realized the new balance of power.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:14
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Miles Vorkosigan posted:There's a great exchange recorded in The Making of the Atomic Bomb where Bohr and Teller are discussing uranium separation and Bohr insists "it can never be done unless you turn the United States into one huge factory." Several years later Bohr comes to America and Teller is supposed to brief him on the Manhattan Project. Bohr interrupts him and says "You see, I told you it couldn't be done without turning the whole country into a factory. You have done just that." We used to make things in this country...
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Jan 24, 2017 21:27
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P-Mack posted:Yeah, but I don't know that they could have afforded that industrial effort, and certainly couldn't have spent enough to actually beat the US to it. The blog that I always flog about these things has useful posts: Allies figuring out there was no German Bomb A weird story about Heisenberg being consulted by the Nazi foerign office about the Americans nuking Germany in 1944 Post German surrender, the Allies locked all the German atomic scientists in an English manor house and recorded everything they said to gauge how far the Nazis were in atomic research
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Jan 24, 2017 21:32
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Hunt11 posted:I will start from bottom to top. German exiles who due to German policies would never have been allowed in a lab other then to be a test subject for some messed up experiment. The point is not that those exiles would have been working in Germany instead, the point is that those exiles could easily have not escaped Nazi Germany, which would have been a huge blow to the Manhattan Project. In terms of At This Point, I'm not sure what you mean. The assumption I'm making is that the German nuclear program starts in 1940 with Heisenberg correctly computing the critical mass of Uranium to be on the order of 50 kilograms - as opposed to several tons. Opinions from German physicists about the impossibility of bomb production were based on this miscalculation.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:38
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bewbies posted:no no no that's a corps of artillery. this here is a corpse of artillery:  e: timg'd out of respect Nenonen fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 21:56
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Please spoiler that poo poo neonen 
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Jan 24, 2017 22:00
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