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Jenner posted:On a personal level I feel that the intolerance of people of color is at least partially due to their absence in white towns. I truly believe that if white folks just lived around and interacted with people of color and got to know them as actual loving people and not just as quaint amusements or whatever other hosed up racist poo poo they might think about them at least some amount of their stupid poo poo might be addressed. Wishful thinking, I know. temple fucked around with this message at 12:09 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 05:38
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temple posted:I would like see some suggestions of how white people can be encourage to live around black people. I'm thinking about this now because temple is right and most white people don't want to live around PoC. My area is very diverse, but that diversity is mostly Asian and South Asian. These are minority groups that have effectively broken there way into the middle class (they still face some pretty obnoxious bullshit despite their wealth.) They can afford to live in my area. I would love to have some POC in my neighborhood, but there are probably few that could afford to live here. I went to a forum my local representative held and the PoC really wanted to talk about affordable housing and housing discrimination and he made sure they spoke to an expert he had on hand. I'm general, the community seemed glad to have them there. I'm not even sure explaining to them the benefits of PoC would sell them on it, though I do believe liberals do like facts. And I do think they want to care and be tolerant and accepting so it might be worthwhile to try. What happened in Milwaukee really sucks and the proper response should not have been to do away with it but to tell them to shut up because these folks were their neighbors. In really desirable places with sane commutes to jobs and decent schools once you buy a house and commit to a mortgage you pretty much stick it out. So just making housing in that community for PoC would be a good start because it's not like someone's gonna move out of their 5 bedroom 2 bathroom house with a 45 minutes commute because Ladasha moved in next door with her husband and three kids. I'll think more on this and get back to you. If BLM ever gets in contact with me I'll see what they have to say about it too. Because PoC are gonna know better than I do.  I think my community here isn't particularly racist but hurr hurr I'm white and wtf do I know.
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Jan 24, 2017 06:40
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Magres posted:The A/T BBQ thread fits this decently There's also a bunch of different food threads in Something Offal that are really great.
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Jan 24, 2017 14:40
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I live in a minority majority city, and recently one of the neighboring (lily white) counties decided to stop sending schoolkids here on field trips, citing "civil unrest" as the reason. Because obviously, protesters are known to go after school buses full of kids in the middle of the day. Racism clearly has nothing to do with it. I work at a museum here, and when I brought it up with some of my coworkers, the overwhelming response was "gently caress those hicks, we don't need 'em". Which I can sort of sympathize with, but it sucks. Those kids are not only going to miss out on everything the city has to offer (multiple museums, the zoo, the aquarium, the science center, the symphony, the many, many cool monuments and historical things), but they're also not going to see people who don't look like them just kinda going about their day, which I think is also important. They're going to grow up thinking of the city and the people in it as dangerous and scary, and it's just another lovely way these things perpetuate themselves  .
Crow Jane fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 15:50
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OK, I have a potentially dumb question. Is Klingon cosplay blackface? A friend of mine goes to a lot of cons and he loves to dress up as a klingon, but he covers all his exposed skin with brown paint for his costumes. On the one hand, nearly every Klingon from TNG onward is brown, but on the other hand it does feel a little deaf to potential connotations. My thought process on this started with "well they're a fantasy alien so he's just depicting them how they were shown", but pondering it a bit harder it's hard to put aside that Klingons morphed into a sort of pastiche of a lot of "warrior race" and "noble savage" stereotypes that seem to always be filled by black actors in any given scifi franchise (d'argo from Farscape being the exception, Farscape continuing to be the best show). From that perspective, it's really hard not to see Klingons as essentially science fiction blackface, with nearly every Klingon character being either an unthinking brute or a duplicitous double-crosser. Star Trek has always had a weird intersection with race and now that I'm writing this post I'm starting to convince myself that just TNG-onward Klingons in general were just blackface period. How do other people feel about this?
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Jan 24, 2017 16:16
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:OK, I have a potentially dumb question. Is Klingon cosplay blackface? If anything the original series was the blackface and TNG quit doing it. As for the in-universe explanation, the question was actually put to Worf in one of the many time-travel episodes and Worf responds "We don't talk about it with outsiders." Depending on where you read your nerd theories, this either means there was some kind of genetic experimentation going on or the slave-class rebelled and there was mass genocide of white Klingons (with some rare exceptions continuing to survive).
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Jan 24, 2017 16:26
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If anyone's in SE Michigan, the author of Hidden Figures, Margot Lee Shetterly, will be in Ann Arbor for several events and a signing today. 4PM at Rackham Graduate School, 7PM for a "Fireside Chat" at Stamps Auditorium on North Campus, and a signing to follow. I wish I could go, but I'm otherwise busy tonight.
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Jan 24, 2017 16:34
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Crow Jane posted:I live in a minority majority city, and recently one of the neighboring (lily white) counties decided to stop sending schoolkids here on field trips, citing "civil unrest" as the reason. Because obviously, protesters are known to go after school buses full of kids in the middle of the day. Racism clearly has nothing to do with it. LeftistMuslimObama posted:OK, I have a potentially dumb question. Is Klingon cosplay blackface? Klingons were space soviets. This is why you shouldn't criticize media without context.
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Jan 24, 2017 16:35
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temple posted:Klingons were space soviets. This is why you shouldn't criticize media without context. Yeah, if you really want to sperg about it all the info you need is right here.
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Jan 24, 2017 16:38
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Probably the most racist depiction of aliens in Star Trek were the Ferengi. In TNG, they were stereotypical Space Jews.
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Jan 24, 2017 16:40
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silence_kit posted:Probably the most racist depiction of aliens in Star Trek were the Ferengi. In TNG, they were stereotypical Space Jews.
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Jan 24, 2017 16:58
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biracial bear for uncut posted:If anything the original series was the blackface and TNG quit doing it. temple posted:It might be racism but its really how racism harms white people. Well, yeah, in TOS they were space soviets which is why I pointed out TNG onward. In TOS they were pretty obvious "sneaky russian" stereotypes, but by the end of TNG they're mostly all brown people filling in that noble savage/warrior race stereotype. They pretty obviously stop being russians at some point and start being a sort of pastiche of all these "big black alien" stereotypes. As far as "we don't talk about it", I think that line in Trials and Tribble-ations is just a throwaway joke people read too much into. The makeup changed to make them more alien looking and that happened to coincide with when they start making serious changes to the characterizations of the characters.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:00
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:OK, I have a potentially dumb question. Is Klingon cosplay blackface? Is it weird to project human racial politics onto imaginary races from distant imaginary planets? You're right about them being portrayed as warrior race, but black actors (although prominently featured by Worf) don't seem to be getting shoe-horned into the role. This is Hollywood after-all, man. If the Klingons were ever meant to be seen as "Black folks in space" they'd have been cast that way. Those mother fuckers have no qualms with exploiting black actors for stereotypes. Here's five of the most prominent Klingons in Star Trek:      One Brother. And the list goes on, man. Here's the evolution of Klingons through Star Trek. You tell me where you see a trend of them going from light to dark-skinned:  It looks like TNG and the later films actually stopped doing blackface, and it seems to me that Klingons are only dark-skinned when portrayed by black actors. Sorry for nerding out. biracial bear for uncut posted:Depending on where you read your nerd theories, this either means there was some kind of genetic experimentation going on or the slave-class rebelled and there was mass genocide of white Klingons (with some rare exceptions continuing to survive). Or, the destruction of Praxis that destroyed their o-zone allowed more solar radiation into their atmosphere, causing darker-skinned individuals. Either way, I don't actually see the trend of Klingon skin getting darker as the series progressed. Chilichimp fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 17:23
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Chilichimp posted:Is it weird to project human racial politics onto imaginary races from distant imaginary planets? You're right about them being portrayed as warrior race, but black actors (although prominently featured by Worf) don't seem to be getting shoe-horned into the role. This is Hollywood after-all, man. If the Klingons were ever meant to be seen as "Black folks in space" they'd have been cast that way. Those mother fuckers have no qualms with exploiting black actors for stereotypes. I dunno, all those pictures look like they're wearing dark makeup to me, but like I said it was a dumb question that just kinda popped into my head that I wanted some help sussing out. After all, Star Trek brought us the "space africans fight over the right to force marriage on tasha yar" episode so you kinda have to come in skeptical of intentions.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:29
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Man, you've got some points, I just don't see it playing out across the medium, is all.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:34
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Well, yeah, in TOS they were space soviets which is why I pointed out TNG onward. In TOS they were pretty obvious "sneaky russian" stereotypes, but by the end of TNG they're mostly all brown people filling in that noble savage/warrior race stereotype. They pretty obviously stop being russians at some point and start being a sort of pastiche of all these "big black alien" stereotypes. Benjamin Sisko was probably my favorite captain. He wasn't better per se but just a good mix of Kirk and Picard. I think he represented the integrationist generation because he had to walk in two worlds, the federation and the bajorans. He was the hope of an entire race while having to contend with threats that existed long before he took control of DS9. The subtext is really fun to toy with. But my favorite part was his relationship with his son. Sisko was a single father to a son, which no show really explores the relationship between black fathers and their children. The episode The Visitor is best example of this and I always get a little choked up when I talk about it. So rare to see characters like that.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:37
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Chilichimp posted:Is it weird to project human racial politics onto imaginary races from distant imaginary planets? I'm not gonna comment on this specific case but generally, that's not weird at all. Humans create those imaginary races after all, with all their biases. Just look at Tolkien and the orks.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:37
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temple posted:The change I think is because soviets didn't exist anymore so they didn't have resonance. TNG/DS9 became more reflective of Star Trek as a whole rather current events. I 100% agree that Sisko was the best captain, and Avery Brooks is a badass for pushing them to keep telling stories about race and oppression even when fans complained endlessly about them.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:41
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botany posted:I'm not gonna comment on this specific case but generally, that's not weird at all. Humans create those imaginary races after all, with all their biases. Just look at Tolkien and the orks. A fair point, I admit, but what's wrong with Tolkien orcs? Orcs/Goblins as a concept of mythology far predate Tolkiens stories. Can you enlighten me on this subject? editL gently caress it, don't want to waste your time. I'll google it.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:50
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Chilichimp posted:A fair point, I admit, but what's wrong with Tolkien orcs? Orcs/Goblins as a concept of mythology far predate Tolkiens stories. Can you enlighten me on this subject? Overall, fantasy and scifi creates fictional races in order to project real-wrold issues onto them. There's some criticism of Tolkien along the fact that essentially the elves (who are tall, pure white, perfect creatures) are the "natural" good guys of his world while the orcs (who are described as an evil corruption of the elves) are natural brutes and evildoers. They're never really described as having much culture or intelligence of their own so LOTR sort of has this problematic "Perfect white people vs The Other" thing going on. And since a lot of fantasy is just ripping off LOTR it's a problem that persists in modern fantasy. It's a subset of the broader problem of the standard high fantasy setting being Not-England in Not-Medieval-Times thus ensuring it will always be white, noble protagonists fighting some barbaric outside force. This is, in turn, a subset of the larger problem in literature of the "default" protagonist generally being white and most often male. Or at least those sorts of stories being the ones that get to be declared part of the canon by the Important People Who Decide What Is Literature. Which now brings me too: Africa in ancient times seems like it would be a loving badass setting for some fantasy stories. Has anyone written that? Why aren't they writing that?
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Jan 24, 2017 18:00
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temple posted:As a kid, I didn't know about antisemitism so I always saw the Ferengi was foils to the Federation. They are effective in that way because they were always more decisive and bold than the Federation. But the Ferengi lacked morality so they were a good example of how the flaws of the federation were often times perfered. But yeah, I can see how they come off as a racist. In TNG, they were a race of merchants who were hilariously petty, short-sighted, money-grubbing creeps. They really weren't great villains and weren't that bright--they were more like comedic relief. The analogy to the unflattering stereotypes of Jews was pretty blatant. I haven't seen DS9 though. Since Ferengi get more than bit parts in that show, presumably they become a bit more fleshed out and become more compelling characters in the Star Trek universe.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:10
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There is some writing on the issue in the Tolkien fandom, as seen in the link provided. One that stands out is that Tolkien wrote in a letter that Orcs are "...squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." So yeah, might have been something of a racist caricature going on there. http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien%27s_Works remusclaw fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 18:10
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silence_kit posted:In TNG, they were a race of merchants who were hilariously petty, short-sighted, money-grubbing creeps. They really weren't great villains and weren't that bright--they were more like comedic relief. The analogy to the unflattering stereotypes of Jews was pretty blatant. Ferengi are better out fleshed out in DS9.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:17
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silence_kit posted:In TNG, they were a race of merchants who were hilariously petty, short-sighted, money-grubbing creeps. They really weren't great villains and weren't that bright--they were more like comedic relief. The analogy to the unflattering stereotypes of Jews was pretty blatant. Haha, the Tolkien Dwarves are even described by him as being based on Jews. Which is just so white supremacist when you consider that those Dwarves were made by the Tolkien gods by shaping them from the clay of the earth... like golems.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:35
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silence_kit posted:In TNG, they were a race of merchants who were hilariously petty, short-sighted, money-grubbing creeps. They really weren't great villains and weren't that bright--they were more like comedic relief. The analogy to the unflattering stereotypes of Jews was pretty blatant. Ferengi are better in DS9 though you can still pin the same stereotypes to the portrayal. But they do a good job of writing fleshed-out characters who are sympathetic which makes it easier to swallow. Quark is basically an extreme American-style capitalist who struggles with his conscience.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:37
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Chilichimp posted:Haha, the Tolkien Dwarves are even described by him as being based on Jews. Huh yeah that now makes a shitload of hilarious sense with how much they love gold and treasure and dislike the good white people.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:41
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https://twitter.com/MatthewACherry/status/823602964845600768 Speaking truth to power.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:55
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I love that man.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:58
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Terry Pratchett is (was I guess RIP  ) really good at dealing with racist caricatures in fiction. His Dwarfs (not dwarves, he emphasizes), for example, are thinly-veiled Jewish stereotypes, but most of his characterization of them as such deals with non-dwarfish characters coming to terms with their own racist (speciesist I guess?) biases, and it's pretty great. The whole "we love gold" dwarf thing gets elaborated on pretty heavily, as well as their status as relative loners at first who quickly adapt to the New York City-style economy and craziness when they move to the Big City. Same with trolls, vampires and other undead - a frequent appearance in his books are organizations like the Silicon Anti-Defamation League, the Campaign for Equal Heights (which is mostly populated by humans who do what they think is best for Dwarf rights, a pretty good send-up of a lot of volunteer organizations), and the Fresh Start club, a support group for the undead recipients of discrimination.One of his most beloved characters has entire story arcs where he comes to terms with his own prejudices against other species and it's really great. e: he also touches on feminism in Dwarf society: quote:Another recent development is the trend for young dwarfs in Ankh-Morpork and elsewhere to be openly female. This trend seems to have been started by Cheery Littlebottom, (pronounced 'Cherri') a member of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch, who was surprised at the way human females distinguished themselves from males. The trend seems to have been picked up in the Ramtops (where some dwarfs already had names like Gloria Thogsdaughter), but is something else found offensive by Überwald traditionalists. The untranslated but contextually vulgar word "ha'ak" is used by such dwarfs to indicate their disapproval. Since, historically, the "typical" dwarf was not actually assumed to be male (it was more the question being deemed irrelevant) this is a curious reaction, except inasmuch as the disapproval is of dwarfs not (in the drudak'ak's opinion) acting like dwarfs. Snow Cone Capone fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 19:07
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Which now brings me too: Africa in ancient times seems like it would be a loving badass setting for some fantasy stories. Has anyone written that? Why aren't they writing that? If you want straight-up African sword and sorcery, check out Imaro by Charles Saunders. If you want something a bit more cerebral, try The Killing Moon by N.K. Jemisin or Redemption in Indigo by Karen Lord.
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Jan 24, 2017 19:43
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https://twitter.com/pitchfork/status/823963328494141440 You played yourself...
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Jan 24, 2017 19:54
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Dexo posted:https://twitter.com/pitchfork/status/823963328494141440 She's been diagnosed with bipolar IIRC. I wouldn't be surprised if her doing this coincided with a manic episode or something like that. I'm trying to be understanding, but drat is it hard not to call her a dumbass and call it a day.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:00
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MariusLecter posted:https://twitter.com/MatthewACherry/status/823602964845600768 amazing
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Jan 24, 2017 21:01
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MariusLecter posted:https://twitter.com/MatthewACherry/status/823602964845600768 This was an answer to a question about his running style, not some political statement, if that's troubling any of you.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:33
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Chilichimp posted:This was an answer to a question about his running style, not some political statement, if that's troubling any of you. Noooo don't ruin it for me. 
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Jan 24, 2017 21:34
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Dexo posted:https://twitter.com/pitchfork/status/823963328494141440 It's almost like De La Soul saw this moment in the future when they wrote the lyrics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOmdg3epcic
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Jan 25, 2017 00:58
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Ferengi are better in DS9 though you can still pin the same stereotypes to the portrayal. But they do a good job of writing fleshed-out characters who are sympathetic which makes it easier to swallow. Quark is basically an extreme American-style capitalist who struggles with his conscience. TNG had Ferengi as straight-up space-jew goblins. There was no redeemable qualities to them, they were just a horrifically blatant stereotype that Roddenberry's by that point senile mind thought were a suitable replacement for Klingons. It's notable that Quark's actor was also the first Ferengi you see in TNG, and he wanted the role of Quark in part to try and do better with them after that clusterfuck. Ferengi as they're portrayed in DS9 are still greedy and the like, but in many ways the writers treat them as being far more human than the actual humans are, and focus heavily on showing that Ferengi can, and will, develop beyond their god-awful original stereotyping. Even Quark develops over the series to be a better person rather than just a stereotype, despite being presented as the norm state for them while the other two main Ferengi, one of which becomes an engineer and the other joins Starfleet and also gets into engineering) are treated as aberrations. Rom, the one that becomes an civilian engineer and is stated to not "have the lobes" for business, actually ends up as the new leader of the Ferengi explicitly because he's not the norm, in fact. Also seconding that Avery Brooks owns for realizing the importance and power of his position and insisting on portraying Sisko's single parent relationship with his son in a good light as much as possible. He straight up had the ending changed because he felt incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of a freshly wed black man ditching his pregnant wife and son forever, so they altered it to include the "he WILL be back after, you know, creepy wormhole godhood stuff is dealt with" part.
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Jan 25, 2017 01:38
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I never sat down and did homework on it, but I remember being increasingly uncomfortable with DS9 as I noticed that (Worf excepted) "good" Klingons were largely played by white actors and "bad" Klingons were largely played by black actors.
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Jan 25, 2017 01:49
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I was doing some thinking about ethnicity and nationality and how one can chose to embrace one or the other or both (this may have to do with Asian stuff but I really don't think anyone cares enough to read about that aside from men wringing their hands on r/asianmasculinity) and I started thinking about the whole connecting oneself with ancient Egypt thing. As a Chinese guy I am defined, whether I like it or not, by my connection to my ethnicity and if I completely rejected it I would still be defining myself in relation to it and the same could be said about a person with Mexican, Jamaican, Italian, Irish etc. heritage. As far as I know, Black Americans' shared history begins with slavery and most connections to tradition and history before that were mostly (if not completely) severed so I can understand trying to look beyond that and find an identity further in the past. I get why they would want to connect themselves with something like that cause heck, white people consider ancient Rome as part of their history and millions of ethnic Han consider themselves linked to Chinese history even though they were probably actually subjugated by said Chinese people centuries or millenia ago. I'm not trying to be condescending or anything like "we did some DNA testing and it turns out that some of y'all are Igbo so here's your book on Nigerian history and traditions and that's what y'all are now stop pretending you can relate to Nubian royalty" or whatever, I'm just wondering if this whole creation of a linked history with ancient Egypt or even looking into one's own African roots is ever going to resonate and become integrated into black identity or if it'll just be kind of feel artificial (? can I even say that) like Kwanzaa. I guess the question is more like "are Black Americans' African roots permanently severed or do they have a chance to grow again?"
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Jan 25, 2017 02:00
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raminasi posted:I never sat down and did homework on it, but I remember being increasingly uncomfortable with DS9 as I noticed that (Worf excepted) "good" Klingons were largely played by white actors and "bad" Klingons were largely played by black actors. Gowron is played by a white dude at least and he's easily the worst of the "duplicitous" flavor of post-TNG Klingons.
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Jan 25, 2017 02:24
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