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General Dog posted:Did Palpatine actually expect Luke to join him, or did he just always plan on either killing him or watching Vader kill him? Even if Luke went over to the dark side, that doesn't automatically make him on board with the Empire. There's no carrot for Palpatine to dangle in front of him like he had for Anakin. He definitely expected him to join the dark side. He wanted a younger, stronger apprentice who wasn't all crippled and mechanical like Darth Vader was. He basically wants Luke to accept that he's powerless and that nothing he or his friends do can ever hope to defeat the might of the Emperor--so Luke might as well join him because at least that way he'll be on the side of greater power and live to see another day. Of course the Emperor never would have accepted Luke killing him, at least not passively. That's always a risk of training an apprentice who might someday grow more powerful than you, obviously, but it's still something you seek to avoid. Still, there was no harm in the Emperor using that notion to motivate Luke because Luke never would have been able to do it that point. But yes, the exact reasons behind why Luke would ever join the Emperor are kind of presented in a very oblique and perfunctory way in ROTJ, and become much clearer with the addition of the prequels and the added context of the reasons behind Anakin's fall. It becomes a much more powerful story when you understand exactly how and where things in the throne room could have gone were Luke to have made the same mistakes as his father.
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Jan 25, 2017 01:04
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Neo Rasa posted:Compared to being a master, given the time and influences on the OT I'm assuming a Jedi Knight is like a literal man in black cowboy that gets to wander the galaxy righting wrongs as they see fit or whatever, and if they're real awesome/the council likes them they can move up to master. The Clone Wars happening throws all of that out of whack though. This is what I wanted. The Jedi are samurai. They can belong to a clan, be retainers to a lord like Leia's father ("You served my father in the Clone Wars,") or be wandering ronin types (Tatooine Obi Wan.) None of this centralized Democracy!!! silliness with the Jedi Temple positioned as a government building.
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Jan 25, 2017 01:13
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I hope they can have Luke dominate an amazing duel or battle along the lines of the bamboo switch fight in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. I'm not a SW fan but I thought it was a real missed opportunity to have Yoda be a little dynamo in combat rather than be extremely confident and controlled with the most minimal of movement to win a face to face fight.
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Jan 25, 2017 01:22
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Cnut the Great posted:Of course the Emperor never would have accepted Luke killing him, at least not passively. That's always a risk of training an apprentice who might someday grow more powerful than you, obviously, but it's still something you seek to avoid. Still, there was no harm in the Emperor using that notion to motivate Luke because Luke never would have been able to do it that point. I kind of wonder about that. Palpatine is by no means a young man even in TPM, and ROTJ is likely 30 years later than that. Unless Palpatine had somehow thought himself immortal (which I doubt, as he doesn't come across as the kind of person who'd believe his own lies) he might be considering the succession of not only his empire but his ideology. Not that he expected Luke to kill him right then and there, be he might have found some satisfaction in that outcome.
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Jan 25, 2017 01:30
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All the unsubstantiated rumors i've heard thus far for the new movie include Kylo and his darkside pals showing up on Luke's planet, and Luke proceeds to utterly wreck their poo poo in ways previously never before seen. So i'm crossing my fingers for that.
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Jan 25, 2017 01:31
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Palpatine definitely doesn't fancy himself as an immortal, seeing as how he has a will that is to be executed in the event of his untimely demise. One of which includes droids being sent out all over the galaxy to wipe out records that he wanted gone.
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Jan 25, 2017 01:32
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Cnut the Great posted:Luke's ROTJ outfit takes design cues from both Obi-Wan's and Yoda's OT outfits, only adding a more utilitarian, combat-ready spin on them--then the prequels went back and took elements from all three OT versions of the Jedi outfit and created some more variations. So all this controversy over the Jedi's outfits in the prequels really is just the most overblown thing in the world. There's also the matter of "I'm probably the last Jedi around, and I can't exactly go to Jedi 'R Us and have some new robes/tunics made for me after i'm measured, so i'll just try to cobble together the best approximation of what I think looks right."
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Jan 25, 2017 01:38
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Gonz posted:There's also the matter of "I'm probably the last Jedi around, and I can't exactly go to Jedi 'R Us and have some new robes/tunics made for me after i'm measured, so i'll just try to cobble together the best approximation of what I think looks right." You say that, but in fact the Galactic Guild of Weavers has been perpetually overstocked ever since the Jedi were wiped out.
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Jan 25, 2017 01:47
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Schwarzwald posted:You say that, but in fact the Galactic Guild of Weavers has been perpetually overstocked ever since the Jedi were wiped out. "ALL. TUNICS. MUST. GO. WE'VE GOT CRAZY PRICES HERE, FOLKS! THESE GARMENTS HAVE NEVER BEEN WORN! STRAIGHT OUT OF THE SHRINKWRAP AS WE PASS THE SAVINGS ONTO YOUUUUUUU!"
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Jan 25, 2017 01:54
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I like to think that Palpatine was so arrogant that he for saw that Luke "could destroy him" and didn't consider any outcomes to that other than "worthy Sith Apprentice" or "could have but died instead."
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Jan 25, 2017 01:56
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I mean they're monastic and all, but they're top quality, practical clothes.
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Jan 25, 2017 01:57
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General Dog posted:Star Wars was never about mysteries though. Now if they pay off the mysteries that have been set up in TFA in a satisfying way then that's fine, but it's definitely a departure. I agree. I'm not saying that TFA leaving tons of mysteries is a good or bad thing, just that it's expected of this kind of franchise at this point. Fantastic Beasts is doing the same, as is every YA novel adaptation. comic property, and everything else. It's especially hilarious when total poo poo like Seventh Son does it. Gee, I wonder who the Seventh Son's dad is or whoever. Soggy Cereal posted:This is what I wanted. The Jedi are samurai. They can belong to a clan, be retainers to a lord like Leia's father ("You served my father in the Clone Wars,") or be wandering ronin types (Tatooine Obi Wan.) Yes, definitely. Jedi as ronin sounds loving sick. I'd watch the hell out of a Seven Samurai story with some Jedi. Interpreting them as some military-diplomatic apparatus that works for the state is perhaps my least favorite thing about the prequels. Like, Yoda's commanding slave-soldiers in a battle? Obi-Wan is negotiating trade with some Asian caricatures? I assumed they were these isolated mystics in some mythologized secret order, but apparently they're UN security forces who set up shop in a sweet tower in Space-Washington, a few blocks from the Senate.
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Jan 25, 2017 02:10
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Judging movies against your imagination is not a productive exercise. Look at what art does say, not what it doesn't.Schwarzwald posted:I kind of wonder about that. Palpatine is by no means a young man even in TPM, and ROTJ is likely 30 years later than that. Unless Palpatine had somehow thought himself immortal (which I doubt, as he doesn't come across as the kind of person who'd believe his own lies) he might be considering the succession of not only his empire but his ideology. He was the pupil of Darth Plagueis, who diligently studied the secrets of immortality, and was planning to continue his research. I think prolonging his own life indefinitely was not out of the question for him.
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Jan 25, 2017 02:21
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Soggy Cereal posted:This is what I wanted. The Jedi are samurai. They can belong to a clan, be retainers to a lord like Leia's father ("You served my father in the Clone Wars,") or be wandering ronin types (Tatooine Obi Wan.) This would have been very appropriate given how romanticized samurai are compared to the reality as well.
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Jan 25, 2017 02:25
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The ideal is basically a school of martial artist monks with space magic in every community. Like in a martial arts movie set in ancient China. I think, anyhow.
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Jan 25, 2017 02:37
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Bongo Bill posted:He was the pupil of Darth Plagueis, who diligently studied the secrets of immortality, and was planning to continue his research. I think prolonging his own life indefinitely was not out of the question for him. It is possibility that he was the pupil of Darth Plagueis, and that may in fact be the case in the EU, but the films themselves conspicuously do not confirm such a thing. The fact that Palpatine is telling the legend specifically to sell the Sith as having the exact power Anakin is looking for leads me to doubt it. Palpatine wants Anakin to believe he has some insight into staving off death, and so he'd have told Anakin the legend regardless of if he was or wasn't the person in question. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Jan 25, 2017 |
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Jan 25, 2017 02:38
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Gonz posted:All the unsubstantiated rumors i've heard thus far for the new movie include Kylo and his darkside pals showing up on Luke's planet, and Luke proceeds to utterly wreck their poo poo in ways previously never before seen. Really, it's kind of hilarious if he thinks he and his Vader Youth buddies can take Luke.
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Jan 25, 2017 02:42
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Hodgepodge posted:I mean they're monastic and all, but they're top quality, practical clothes.
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Jan 25, 2017 02:46
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I fuckin despise the Yoda fights in the prequels contradicting every single thing he teaches Luke.
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Jan 25, 2017 03:43
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theflyingexecutive posted:I fuckin despise the Yoda fights in the prequels contradicting every single thing he teaches Luke. Stop and think for a moment about what it means that he acted one way when he was younger, and then said different things when he was older.
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Jan 25, 2017 03:52
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theflyingexecutive posted:I fuckin despise the Yoda fights in the prequels contradicting every single thing he teaches Luke. Prequel Yoda was young, dumb, and full of cum.
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Jan 25, 2017 03:57
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Xealot posted:I agree. I'm not saying that TFA leaving tons of mysteries is a good or bad thing, just that it's expected of this kind of franchise at this point. Fantastic Beasts is doing the same, as is every YA novel adaptation. comic property, and everything else. It's especially hilarious when total poo poo like Seventh Son does it. Gee, I wonder who the Seventh Son's dad is or whoever. I feel kind of the same way about the mysteries set up in TFA. I don't see any answer to "who are Rey's parents?" or "who is Snoke?" that are so mind-blowing that they're worth keeping us in suspense about. Who cares? It's a bit presumptuous of the architects of the franchise to withhold these pieces of information and just assume they're things we're all dying to know the answer to.
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Jan 25, 2017 04:02
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Bongo Bill posted:Stop and think for a moment about what it means that he acted one way when he was younger, and then said different things when he was older. Yes, all those 87 year olds who undergo drastic character shifts when they hit 90
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Jan 25, 2017 04:04
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theflyingexecutive posted:Yes, all those 87 year olds who undergo drastic character shifts when they hit 90 If an 87 year old bore a great deal of personal responsibility for the collapse of a thousand year old democracy, I still could see him doing some soul searching.
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Jan 25, 2017 04:08
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Xealot posted:Yes, definitely. Jedi as ronin sounds loving sick. I'd watch the hell out of a Seven Samurai story with some Jedi. They're not really like UN security forces, though. They're a semi-autonomous monastic order which governs itself and makes its own decisions, but which works in cooperation with the galactic government to defend it from threats. The various Jedi Knights spread out around the galaxy report to the Council on Coruscant for new assignments, but otherwise seem to be able to do whatever they want at their own discretion (i.e., Anakin can sleep over at Padme's with impunity and no one cares or questions where he is). The prequels show that they are nonetheless a secretive, semi-mythologized order. The leader of the powerful Trade Federation has never even encountered a Jedi before, Watto finds the idea of ever encountering a Jedi so outlandish that he assumes Qui-Gon is just some weirdo messing with him even after he blatantly tries to execute a mind trick, Anakin has only heard stories about them and thinks they're literally invincible. There aren't that many Jedi, and it's a big galaxy. For many people on the Rim, the Core itself would seem like just as much a figure of distant myth as the Jedi themselves are. And I'm not sure how a totally de-centralized, dispersed Jedi Order with no leadership structure or organizational cohesion would have been very conducive to telling an effective story about their collective downfall. There's no story in seeing random, isolated Jedi wandering around the galaxy doing their own thing. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Jan 25, 2017 |
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Jan 25, 2017 04:11
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theflyingexecutive posted:I fuckin despise the Yoda fights in the prequels contradicting every single thing he teaches Luke.
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Jan 25, 2017 04:17
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theflyingexecutive posted:Yes, all those 87 year olds who undergo drastic character shifts when they hit 90 If he's never had to confront the reality of a full-scale galactic war and the Jedi's proper role in it before then, then yes, I would imagine he might learn something. And it's not even like Yoda ever did a complete 180 on who he was as a person. Even as he's engaging in combat with Sith Lords and directing clone troopers as a general, there are constant nods to the fact that he's supremely uncomfortable with the whole thing, but feels that he has no choice if the Republic is to be saved. Yoda knows that something isn't right about what the Jedi are doing, but there's nothing else he can do about it except let the Sith win this round by conquering the Republic--and that's understandably not something he's willing to do, even if it's what needs to happen if the Jedi Order is to keep its soul and save the galaxy in the long-term. I find Yoda's conflict in the prequels to be a very compelling and thought-provoking one. I find this idea that dynamic characters who undergo development are bad to be quite baffling. Yes, even old people are capable of change. You're never too old to learn something.
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Jan 25, 2017 04:25
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I'm just talking about his combat style dudes
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Jan 25, 2017 04:29
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"What is the Force?" and "If liberal democracy truly defeated fascism, why is the galaxy reduced to warring kingdoms?" are good questions that new star wars outta explore. "Who are Rey's parents?" "Who is Snoke?" "What corrupted Ben Solo?" "Why did Luke vanish?" are not very interesting questions. They're barely mysteries cuz we can guess the answers waaay too easily: - Luke and some non-character - A clone of Sheev Palpatine - his parent's divorce or w/e - he exiled himself cuz Solo turned dark and killed the other students
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Jan 25, 2017 04:36
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General Dog posted:If an 87 year old bore a great deal of personal responsibility for the collapse of a thousand year old democracy, I still could see him doing some soul searching. It's just weird to see him acting pretty pacifist Yoda-like in tpm, then goes berserk in 2 and 3, then back to pacifist in esb. I think it's a bit of a cop-out to have all of Luke's training on Dagobah be free of weapons (the only time he uses his lightsaber is in a magic cave that shows him violence isn't the answer to avenging Obi-Wan). It even makes it look like he needs a hover-Rascal just to keep up with average people walking in tpm, then he's doing crazy flips ten years later. It undercuts the message of the Force being more powerful than weapons (Obi-Wan's sacrifice, the torpedo shot, Vader taking Han's blaster) to show the most powerful Force master take out a little baby saber.
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Jan 25, 2017 04:38
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theflyingexecutive posted:It's just weird to see him acting pretty pacifist Yoda-like in tpm, then goes berserk in 2 and 3, then back to pacifist in esb. I think it's a bit of a cop-out to have all of Luke's training on Dagobah be free of weapons (the only time he uses his lightsaber is in a magic cave that shows him violence isn't the answer to avenging Obi-Wan). It even makes it look like he needs a hover-Rascal just to keep up with average people walking in tpm, then he's doing crazy flips ten years later. It undercuts the message of the Force being more powerful than weapons (Obi-Wan's sacrifice, the torpedo shot, Vader taking Han's blaster) to show the most powerful Force master take out a little baby saber. I agree that he looks kind of goofy wielding a lightsaber, and that it would have been better if we saw him be a bit more creative in battle, but Yoda was never an outright pacifist. I think he'd say that Jedi have a higher calling than to be warriors, but not that there's never a time to fight. But his statement in ESB that wars aren't what make one great rings all the truer when we've seen his Jedi Order win a war and get slaughtered as their reward. If he's gotten more crusty about the supposed glory of battle, it's for good reason. The entirety of the Clone Wars literally didn't matter.
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Jan 25, 2017 04:50
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General Dog posted:I agree that he looks kind of goofy wielding a lightsaber,
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Jan 25, 2017 05:04
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Xealot posted:Yes, definitely. Jedi as ronin sounds loving sick. I'd watch the hell out of a Seven Samurai story with some Jedi. This is why all Star Wars comics from the very first Marvel run to the late 90s unilaterally loving ruled.   
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Jan 25, 2017 05:05
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Neo Rasa posted:This is why all Star Wars comics from the very first Marvel run to the late 90s unilaterally loving ruled. Whoa, Jazz Jackrabbit was in the Star Wars universe?
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Jan 25, 2017 05:14
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General Dog posted:Whoa, Jazz Jackrabbit was in the Star Wars universe? Actually "his name is Bucky, Captain Bucky O'Hare, he goes where no ordinary rabbit would dare."
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Jan 25, 2017 05:25
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In the same way TFA succeeds the PT fails. It was mentioned earlier that TFA only succeeded for superficial reasons like "good acting" and "good casting" but Lucas proved utterly incapable of that in the PT. It sinks those movies and the only people who find redeeming qualities in that trash are mouth breathing simps. The prequels are nothing but a forgettable footnote in the Star Wars saga akin to the EU
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Jan 25, 2017 06:09
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I'm sorry you don't like a movie.
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Jan 25, 2017 06:15
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Stacks posted:In the same way TFA succeeds the PT fails. It was mentioned earlier that TFA only succeeded for superficial reasons like "good acting" and "good casting" but Lucas proved utterly incapable of that in the PT. It sinks those movies and the only people who find redeeming qualities in that trash are mouth breathing simps. Nerd.
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Jan 25, 2017 06:15
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The Last Tezzor
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Jan 25, 2017 06:26
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No... there is another.
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Jan 25, 2017 06:46
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