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Finally gave TFA a second watch today; my opinion of it stayed largely unchanged from 'mildly pleasant in a perfunctory sort of way' but I noticed something I don't think I've seen much talk about: new characters lacking last names. Rey. Finn. Snoke. Even Kylo Ren; we find out his birth name was Ben but it's left unstated whether he was Ben Solo or Ben Organa or Organa-Solo or what. There's obviously various in-story reasons for why these characters aren't given names to us, the audience, but it does speak to these characters not wanting other people to know their history. There's even a recurring thing where Finn keeps referring to Han as just 'Solo' and Han is kind of peeved the first time he does it. And in contrast the new characters who are given last names are those who have already found some sort of already established institution to place themselves in, Admiral Hux, Captain Phasma, and Poe Dameron have their military careers where they're individual parts of a greater whole while Maz Kanata has her long-running cantina to dispense wisdom from. The implication left then is that those one-named characters will have to find their own way beyond just joining the new rebellion or the new empire. They lack their history to tie them down and push them towards the false dichotomy of Light or Dark. (admittedly this is kinda shaky with snoke but we know so little about him we have no idea if he has greater aspirations beyond 'hey let's do the empire thing again' but if this reading has legs it can speak to there being something more to him)
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Jan 25, 2017 07:24
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I don't think Snoke is supposed to be some big mystery. He's some rear end in a top hat who's been waiting for his moment. I'd be surprised if he's actually revealed to be a known character or relative or something.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:36
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Hodgepodge posted:The joke is that you assume that someone is kidding when they post a dumb opinion. Was that someone me? Because if so I have some bad news.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:45
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Freakazoid_ posted:Was that someone me? Because if so I have some bad news. I can't even remember at this point to be honest.
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Jan 25, 2017 08:28
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Stacks posted:In the same way TFA succeeds the PT fails. It was mentioned earlier that TFA only succeeded for superficial reasons like "good acting" and "good casting" but Lucas proved utterly incapable of that in the PT. It sinks those movies and the only people who find redeeming qualities in that trash are mouth breathing simps. The prequels will never be a footnote as long as weirdos like you remain obsessed with them. Think about it. You are still talking about movies that you "don't like" ten years after their release.
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Jan 25, 2017 13:09
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General Dog posted:Did Palpatine actually expect Luke to join him, or did he just always plan on either killing him or watching Vader kill him? Even if Luke went over to the dark side, that doesn't automatically make him on board with the Empire. There's no carrot for Palpatine to dangle in front of him like he had for Anakin. Palps didn't have a carrot on anakin either in any of the ot movies.
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Jan 25, 2017 14:38
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UmOk posted:The prequels will never be a footnote as long as weirdos like you remain obsessed with them. Think about it. You are still talking about movies that you "don't like" ten years after their release.
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Jan 25, 2017 15:04
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Kurzon posted:I don't like the Armenian Genocide, but we should talk about it more. The prequels: as bad as genocide. The Triumph if the Will of Being Bad. Only be to discussed to acknowledge that they are Bad, like the Holocaust. 
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Jan 25, 2017 15:28
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That comparison certainly displays a healthy attitude toward movies about space wizards.
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Jan 25, 2017 15:30
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Well if you treat the Jedi as an ethnic group there is definitely a genocide in the prequel trilogy.
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Jan 25, 2017 16:24
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Barudak posted:Well if you treat the Jedi as an ethnic group there is definitely a genocide in the prequel trilogy. Two!
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Jan 25, 2017 16:27
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"No redeeming qualities" is such ridiculous hyperbole, and comments like that usually are when discussing film. Its very, very rare that I see a film that I can't find a few redeeming qualities in, and the prequels aren't anywhere even close to that level. It seems like for some reason fans of Star Wars feel a need to treat the films as this all or nothing proposition. Either its complete garbage and doesn't deserve to be considered "real" Star Wars, or its the best thing since The Empire Strikes Back. There's no room for a middle ground where maybe the prequels are bad in some ways and good in other ways, or maybe TFA/Rogue One are entertaining, but ultimately forgettable. No, the prequels have to be irredeemable garbage, and the new films have to be the shining examples of what Star Wars was about all along.
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Jan 25, 2017 16:51
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Also, why is ESB considered the best? I like ESB, but that it's the best just seems to go unquestioned. I suspect it's often hailed as the best because it suits certain prejudices--like, those of us who first saw Star Wars when we were toddlers could still point to ESB as the "dark, gritty" one when we put kids' stuff aside for serious movies.
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Jan 25, 2017 17:11
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Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones has no redeeming qualities.
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Jan 25, 2017 17:11
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I don't like the prequels' iteration of Yoda because I prefer the idea that Yoda has essentially been a static character for much longer than a human lifespan. I prefer my Star Wars larger than life that way. If Yoda's lifespan is similar to a human lifespan, and he's significantly changed his ideology within living memory, it just wastes a lot of that potential to use the fantasy elements of Star Wars to sublime effect.
21 Muns fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jan 25, 2017 |
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Jan 25, 2017 17:12
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Neo Rasa posted:Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones is better than ESB. 
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Jan 25, 2017 17:14
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Halloween Jack posted:Also, why is ESB considered the best? I like ESB, but that it's the best just seems to go unquestioned. I suspect it's often hailed as the best because it suits certain prejudices--like, those of us who first saw Star Wars when we were toddlers could still point to ESB as the "dark, gritty" one when we put kids' stuff aside for serious movies. Some of the technical aspects of ESB are definitely superior to ANH or RotJ. The sets, lighting, cinematography, costumes, its all a pretty big step up from ANH.
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Jan 25, 2017 17:15
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21 Muns posted:I don't like the prequels' iteration of Yoda because I prefer the idea that Yoda has essentially been a static character for much longer than a human lifespan. I prefer by Star Wars larger than life that way. If Yoda's lifespan is similar to a human lifespan, and he's significantly changed his ideology within living memory, it just wastes a lot of that potential to use the fantasy elements of Star Wars to sublime effect. It isn't necessarily false that Yoda has been a (relatively) static character for an exaggerated amount of time. He's presumably been on the council for centuries, and likely hasn't been tremendously mercurial during those years. But for any character who is so remarkably unchanging, there will always be a story in what circumstances can prompt even them to change.
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Jan 25, 2017 17:35
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Halloween Jack posted:Also, why is ESB considered the best? I like ESB, but that it's the best just seems to go unquestioned. I suspect it's often hailed as the best because it suits certain prejudices--like, those of us who first saw Star Wars when we were toddlers could still point to ESB as the "dark, gritty" one when we put kids' stuff aside for serious movies. - tightest story - best performances combined with the least cumbersome dialogue - most memorable score - probably has the highest density of 'iconic' star wars moments - most impressive VFX
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Jan 25, 2017 17:41
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ESB always wins because 4 is when you're meeting characters and settling in and 6 pairs two great battles, the Death Star and Luke/Vader/emperor with the teddy bears
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Jan 25, 2017 17:49
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21 Muns posted:I don't like the prequels' iteration of Yoda because I prefer the idea that Yoda has essentially been a static character for much longer than a human lifespan. I prefer by Star Wars larger than life that way. If Yoda's lifespan is similar to a human lifespan, and he's significantly changed his ideology within living memory, it just wastes a lot of that potential to use the fantasy elements of Star Wars to sublime effect. I'm sorry Lucas wasn't faithful to your headcanon.
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Jan 25, 2017 18:26
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Neo Rasa posted:Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones has no redeeming qualities. It has no "redeeming qualities" because it doesn't need to be redeemed. It's good and was my favourite when I rewatched 5/7 of the series over Christmas).
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Jan 25, 2017 18:28
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21 Muns posted:I don't like the prequels' iteration of Yoda because I prefer the idea that Yoda has essentially been a static character for much longer than a human lifespan. I prefer by Star Wars larger than life that way. If Yoda's lifespan is similar to a human lifespan, and he's significantly changed his ideology within living memory, it just wastes a lot of that potential to use the fantasy elements of Star Wars to sublime effect. This is exactly what he is in the OT. A shallow analysis of The Empire Strikes back is that it's the deconstruction step of the OT. It is, but since the entire OT is the initial construction step of the myth, it's not so much a deconstruction as it is a deepening of the second crisis curve. It's the part of Dune where the Harkonnens kill Duke Leto and Drive Paul and Jessica into the desert. The prequels are the deconstruction. The Republic is a mythical golden age in the context of the OT, we know it fell but only see its survivors as nearly mythical gods like Yoda, Obi-Wan, Vader and The Emperor. Once you actual see the Golden Age, whether it is the Republic or Paul's rule as Messiah in the second Dune book, it's inevitably disappointing even if there are some sublime moments. If Yoda were as wise as he is in the OT in the time of the Republic, it would not have fallen. In Dune, Paul is wise enough to know that yet another Messiah is not going to save a mankind which believes in the Golden Age as a literal paradise of the past or future. "Deconstruction" tends to be a buzz-word even when assigned accurately to a work such as The Watchmen; it might be better to note that the PT, Dune Messiah, and The Watchmen are all undignified takes on pop mythology. However, that actually makes the dignified moments shine once you realize that part of the joke is that no matter how badass it's fundamentally silly to see Yoda fight someone with a little Lightsaber. We actually meet the person who you imagined Yoda to be in TFA: Maz Kanata. Like, she was literally there all along and it's not even clear if the Jedi or Sith ever knew she existed. But we're in the opening chapters of "the third book" of the trilogy now that it's a trilogy of trilogies. I'm not sure if I want to know if there's a name for that. e; I should note that Frank Herbert really helps by spelling all this out in the forward to Dune Messiah. If I remember correctly, he says something like "I expect this to be the least popular of the trilogy but here's what I'm doing." Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jan 25, 2017 |
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Jan 25, 2017 18:34
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Neo Rasa posted:Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones has no redeeming qualities. The title alone is great. But even discounting all the technical and symbolic things we could discuss, on a surface, visceral level there's still plenty to enjoy. Obi-Wan diving out a window and the ensuing chase sequence through the city. The asteroid dogfight. Obi-Wan fighting Jango on the platform on Kamino. The entire battle sequence on Geonosis starting with the attempted executions in the arena. Mace Windu dunking on Jango.
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Jan 25, 2017 18:42
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Hodgepodge posted:This is exactly what he is in the OT. A shallow analysis of The Empire Strikes back is that it's the deconstruction step of the OT. It is, but since the entire OT is the initial construction step of the myth, it's not so much a deconstruction as it is a deepening of the second crisis curve. It's the part of Dune where the Harkonnens kill Duke Leto and Drive Paul and Jessica into the desert. This makes a lot of sense. Thanks. 
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Jan 25, 2017 18:42
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sassassin posted:It has no "redeeming qualities" because it doesn't need to be redeemed. Indeed. They require vindication.
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Jan 25, 2017 18:43
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21 Muns posted:This makes a lot of sense. Thanks. No problem! I hope the last two movies actually deliver on this. I like their choice of directors at least.
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Jan 25, 2017 18:45
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Everything Obi-Wan related in AOTC is awesome. And in the other movies. Obi-Wan owns.
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Jan 25, 2017 18:48
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Obi-wan is the equivalent of a guy who tells you "hold my beer" before doing something stupidly dangerous and then turning around and telling you not to sip his beer cause it kills braincells. The man loves fighting, drinking, and fighting in that order and I feel like i should point out the only things he explicitly trains or invokes Luke to do are all combat related. poo poo hes the one who just flat out tells him to kill his dad.
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Jan 25, 2017 18:57
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Lord Hydronium posted:Everything Obi-Wan related in AOTC is awesome. And in the other movies. Obi-Wan owns. Things come very close to working out. The consistent flaw isn't even that the Jedi don't trust Anakin. In the end, before he helps kill Windu, they all have begun to trust him. But each one in their own way fails to acknowledge that they need him. Windu, for example, goes to arrest Palpatine because after he reveals himself as Sidious to Anakin, the guy goes straight to the Council with it. But he tells Anakin to wait behind because he still only begins to trust him, instead of seeing his importance and helping him confront the turmoil within him himself.
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Jan 25, 2017 19:04
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Neo Rasa posted:Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones has no redeeming qualities. Yeah . It's really good. I like ESb more still because of nostalgia .
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Jan 25, 2017 19:39
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Let's look at the opening of Attack of the Clones once more, and talk about the clones that I haven't seen mentioned before -- those of Padme Amidala. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsqqLeVc-b0 During this opening sequence, we have one copy of Amidala, played by Kiera Knightly, killed via bombing. This is the regal, fully noble and Queenly version. The real Amidala is revealed in pilot's garb somewhat similar to that which she wore at the end of Phantom Menace, the one unafraid to be assertive, shoot pistols, scale buildings, storm formations of troops, etc. She wears the same red she had on when we first saw her as queen. (Incidentally, Knightly was an extraordinary bit of casting, as, supposedly, even their own mothers couldn't tell them apart once they were in make-up.)   However, the killing of Amidala clones doesn't end there. In the very next sequence, the fight against the shapeshifting bounty hunter Zam Wesell, what outfit is Zam wearing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9-K1cxj6IQ  One which strongly echos Amidala's pilot outfit, with its leather tunic, helmet shape, face mask.  From there on out, the red is removed from Amidala's wardrobe. She wears whites and blacks, a blue robe, some dull yellows... She's bloodless, ineffective, and forced into a cliche damsel in distress role which will only be more egregious in Revenge of the Sith. Even though she is present at the Battle of Geonosis, compare her actions there to those during the Assault on Theed in Phantom Menace. In the latter, she is an active leader, responsible for most of the action, and vital to the battle's success. In the former, while smart enough to climb up her pillar to safety, it does her little good as she is the first injured, then is rescued by Anakin, and manages to be a chariot driver for most of it until the clone troops arrive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-R0qiIpR2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fP7YJtjbZY The strong and interesting Amidalas were killed, leaving us with a doomed romance and Anakin's sidekick.
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Jan 25, 2017 20:15
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AotC is so good and it's "redeeming qualities" have been demonstrated many times in this thread. I dare someone to explain some of its qualities that aren't "redeemable"
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Jan 25, 2017 21:28
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What the hell has happened to this thread that AotC is now held up as good or enjoyable? How did we reach this bizarro world. It's full of bad re-shoots and it turned Padme into an idiot. The fact people are willing to forgive so many horrible plot missteps and somehow override them with its deeper "qualities" is frankly ridiculous.
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Jan 25, 2017 22:11
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A lot of people aren't laser focused in plot I'm movies. I'm not. I like stories, visual artistry, music etc
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Jan 25, 2017 22:12
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Teek posted:What the hell has happened to this thread that AotC is now held up as good or enjoyable? How did we reach this bizarro world. It's full of bad re-shoots and it turned Padme into an idiot. The fact people are willing to forgive so many horrible plot missteps and somehow override them with its deeper "qualities" is frankly ridiculous. What do you feel were plot missteps? Even when I was more lukewarm on the prequels I felt like the overarching plot of the Republic and the Jedi falling due to their own complacency was the most interesting aspect of the prequels.
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Jan 25, 2017 22:17
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euphronius posted:A lot of people aren't laser focused in plot I'm movies. I'm not. I like stories, visual artistry, music etc  Someone draw some lines of McGregor's bad reshoot beard please. Maybe I just need some help.
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Jan 25, 2017 22:20
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Teek posted:What the hell has happened to this thread that AotC is now held up as good or enjoyable? How did we reach this bizarro world. It's full of bad re-shoots and it turned Padme into an idiot. The fact people are willing to forgive so many horrible plot missteps and somehow override them with its deeper "qualities" is frankly ridiculous. Like three people posted that they like AotC. I'd hardly say its being "held up as good". You just have to accept that there isn't going to be 100% agreement about the prequels. Somehow you'll have to figure out how to sleep at night.
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Jan 25, 2017 22:22
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Brother Entropy posted:What do you feel were plot missteps? Even when I was more lukewarm on the prequels I felt like the overarching plot of the Republic and the Jedi falling due to their own complacency was the most interesting aspect of the prequels. I've warmed on AoTC a good bit, but while the overall arc of the prequels is good, there are some central plot threads specific to the episode that don't resolve very clearly. Namely, how did the plot to assassinate Padme tie into everything else? Was the intent always to lead the Jedi to the clone army, or was that just a happy coincidence? If the Jedi were supposed to find the Clone Army, why was Kamino erased from the Jedi Archive? What is the point in knowing who ordered the Clone Army if it's someone we never knew and is never expanded upon? The plot is basically just the unfolding of a complex mousetrap Palpatine has set for the Jedi, but the specifics of the plan and who all is in on it are pretty hazy even upon a lot of re-watches. Teek posted:
At least it's better than his reshoot wig from TPM. General Dog fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jan 25, 2017 |
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Jan 25, 2017 22:23
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Basebf555 posted:Like three people posted that they like AotC. I'd hardly say its being "held up as good". Obviously. I can manage, I'll just weep silently inside for what could have been for the Prequels.
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Jan 25, 2017 22:39
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