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Should it be legal for other people to assault you if they disagree with you? This poll is closed. |
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Trump said protestors at his rallies should be roughed up. This means that he wants Democrats to be afraid of disruptive political speech in the specific context of Trump rallies. (e: Note that political speech that is disruptive of others' political expression is tautologically not a universal right. Violence against protestors is, of course, bad.) Calling for all political speech of all Democrats to be curtailed in all public contexts is the analogue of what you're shooting for. What I'm saying is: what you said is worse that what Trump said. Even if you fudge things to put them at roughly the same level of bad, that should be real concerning. FreeKillB fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 04:00
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| # ? May 31, 2024 22:29 |
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If you divorce speech from context, and make everything a tit for tat sides issues then sure, people on a forum saying punch nazis are worse than a President who's going to (attempt to) strip voting rights from a sizeable portion of your citizenship based on a half remembered golfing anecdote, and then enact policies that disproportionally harm them.
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Jan 27, 2017 04:07
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FreeKillB posted:The Republican Party may not be great friends of democracy, but they're not going around saying that Democrats should be afraid to say Democratic things in mixed company for fear of being assaulted. (e: I'm well aware and disturbed by Trump's calls for violence against protestors at his rallies. As bad as that is, it's not nearly so broad as this.) If a free and open society leads to fascism. Then perhaps we need a society where such types and oligarchs live in fear.
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Jan 27, 2017 04:07
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FreeKillB posted:So the bar for "how noxious must your publically expressed beliefs be for it to be OK to get punched in the face" is now racism? That's a big shift from 'advocating ethnic cleansing/genocide", which is what I've heard from others in the thread.
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Jan 27, 2017 04:17
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Sorry, I was responding to a sentiment that all Republicans should be face-punched. Do you think all Republicans are Nazis?
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Jan 27, 2017 04:21
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FreeKillB posted:Sorry, I was responding to a sentiment that all Republicans should be face-punched. Do you think all Republicans are Nazis? I have no problem with expressing political opinions that are broadly within the whole "all men are created equal" etc stuff. Its when you start saying we should kill all non-whites that you deserve to get your teeth knocked out.
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Jan 27, 2017 04:23
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A Republican who gets "worried" about Nazis getting punched in the face, and immediately equivocates this with people wanting to punch "all Republicans" in the face, should raise a lot more eyebrows than the act of punching a Nazi in the face.
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Jan 27, 2017 04:40
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Posters here have at least speculated that bashing republicans would be good. Like within the past couple pages.
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Jan 27, 2017 04:43
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Kilroy posted:It would be the start of Republicans being afraid to say Republican things in mixed company out of fear of being assaulted. That's bad if you're a Republican, and good if you're literally anyone else interested in a healthy civic society. Kilroy posted:I think you underestimate how anti-democratic the Republican party has become, but I don't think it's time to go out and punch Republicans, because Republican != Nazi, yet.
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Jan 27, 2017 04:48
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Due process, what's that? It's easy to justify your political violence when you feel you are doing it for a righteous cause, but do we really want to live in a society where we feel justified in attacking our fellow citizens based on the perceived assessment of their character? It is entirely possible for an individual to be smeared in public and then mobbed to death by a group that thinks it is doing the right thing, or for someone's words to be taken out of context and then it becomes open season. And if they try to defend their words, who is gonna listen to a Nazi anyway? I am really shocked by the number of people condoning violence on their political opponents. It's extremely shortsighted, and people who do this fail to see that this mentality can shift against them as their own opinions become the unpopular ones and their enemies get power. Right wingers would then be perfectly justified in violence against "leftists", "communists", "degenerates", "SJWs", and any perceived social ill.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:01
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Lads, politics is not a gentlemanly game. The right, be they conservatives or outright nazis, support policies that needlessly kill tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people through poverty, neglect, foreign wars, lack of access to healthcare, abortion or contraception, police violence, the torture prisons they love to run both domestically and abroad and capital punishment, among other things. Just because these atrocities are enacted through a state proxy does not make them moral or legitimate and physical and ideological opposition to those promoting them can be justified as defending yourself, your class and vulnerable minorities from the onslaught of the state, the fascists and the enablers of both. The groups they target live in fear day to day, whether it's fear of physical violence in the form of beatings and harassment or systemic violence such as the financial ruin wrought by an economy rigged against them. It is only fair and right that the bastards responsible for this climate of terror be made to feel the same fear.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:04
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TomViolence posted:Lads, politics is not a gentlemanly game. The right, be they conservatives or outright nazis, support policies that needlessly kill tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people through poverty, neglect, foreign wars, lack of access to healthcare, abortion or contraception, police violence, the torture prisons they love to run both domestically and abroad and capital punishment, among other things. Just because these atrocities are enacted through a state proxy does not make them moral or legitimate and physical and ideological opposition to those promoting them can be justified as defending yourself, your class and vulnerable minorities from the onslaught of the state, the fascists and the enablers of both. Take a look at this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-cover-damages/ I am sure that whoever did this was thinking of striking back against the fat cats and corrupt capitalists of Washington DC. Turns out they burned the livelihood of a Muslim immigrant.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:11
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Pseudo-God posted:So where do you draw the line then? Why not escalate them if making your opponents feel fear is good? First start with punching them in the street, then you can set fire to their homes and property, then you can threaten their kids and family. Hell, why not bomb and assassinate them too? It is exactly the ideology that terrorists use, remember, they truly believe they are doing the right thing for a righteous cause for an ultimately better world. So it seems the problem in this situation is that they burned the limo of a Muslim immigrant, not that they burned a limo? This just means it's important to actually target property damage correctly (and IMO there's nothing wrong with targeting the property of a bad rich person, as long as you're not endangering anyone in the process).
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Jan 27, 2017 05:25
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Crowsbeak posted:If a free and open society leads to fascism. Then perhaps we need a society where such types and oligarchs live in fear. In other words, "I'm perfectly happy living in a authoritarian society, as long as they're my type of authoritarians." No thanks.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:27
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Ytlaya posted:So it seems the problem in this situation is that they burned the limo of a Muslim immigrant, not that they burned a limo? This just means it's important to actually target property damage correctly (and IMO there's nothing wrong with targeting the property of a bad rich person, as long as you're not endangering anyone in the process). You don't get it, they DID target the property of the "bad rich person", and instead they destroyed the limo of the "good rich person". The point is, are we really going to live in a country where the status of "good" and "bad", and subsequently their eligibility as targets of violence, is determined by angry mobs in the streets?
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Jan 27, 2017 05:31
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Pseudo-God posted:So where do you draw the line then? Why not escalate them if making your opponents feel fear is good? First start with punching them in the street, then you can set fire to their homes and property, then you can threaten their kids and family. Hell, why not bomb and assassinate them too? It is exactly the ideology that terrorists use, remember, they truly believe they are doing the right thing for a righteous cause for an ultimately better world. The entire point of anti-fascism is to de-escalate things before they get worse, it's not an extirpative war, it's about creating a chilling effect. Extreme measures like you're describing don't actually need to be taken because fascists, being nothing more than bullies, are quite gutless and tend to back down when actually confronted. That is, unless they've reached the sort of critical mass that leads to another kristallnacht and terrorized the populace into acquiescence, which is, to reiterate, what anti-fascism is all about avoiding.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:35
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A limo is a good target regardless of who it belongs to. I can hardly think of a clearer shorthand for capitalist excess.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:35
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TomViolence posted:The entire point of anti-fascism is to de-escalate things before they get worse, it's not an extirpative war, it's about creating a chilling effect. Extreme measures like you're describing don't actually need to be taken because fascists, being nothing more than bullies, are quite gutless and tend to back down when actually confronted. A wonderful thought, a pity that historically what has happened is that they get the poo poo kicked out of them, then usually search for weaker targets (read: minorities) to attack and make themselves feel big again.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:38
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The Kingfish posted:A limo is a good target regardless of who it belongs to. I can hardly think of a clearer shorthand for capitalist excess. Good news, I have a couple of suggestions of groups you can join or emulate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbionese_Liberation_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_Underground https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Freedom_Front https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction A forgotten historical fact is that in the 70s and 80s there were thousands of communist bombings in the US. So you see, you are a bit late with your terrorism apologia.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:44
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Keeshhound posted:A wonderful thought, a pity that historically what has happened is that they get the poo poo kicked out of them, then usually search for weaker targets (read: minorities) to attack and make themselves feel big again. It's somewhat harder to attack people when you've got a concussion.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:49
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Pseudo-God posted:Due process, what's that? It's easy to justify your political violence when you feel you are doing it for a righteous cause, but do we really want to live in a society where we feel justified in attacking our fellow citizens based on the perceived assessment of their character? It is entirely possible for an individual to be smeared in public and then mobbed to death by a group that thinks it is doing the right thing, or for someone's words to be taken out of context and then it becomes open season. And if they try to defend their words, who is gonna listen to a Nazi anyway? What we have right now is a state that protects Nazis from violence in the name of free speech, yet looks the other way when leftist protesters get punched in the face at political rally. A state that will gladly commit violence against people protesting police brutality, but takes someone who burned down a church out for burgers and a milkshake. I'd say we're quite far from ideal, and so in this climate punching Nazis is cool and good. TomViolence posted:The entire point of anti-fascism is to de-escalate things before they get worse, it's not an extirpative war, it's about creating a chilling effect. Extreme measures like you're describing don't actually need to be taken because fascists, being nothing more than bullies, are quite gutless and tend to back down when actually confronted. That is, unless they've reached the sort of critical mass that leads to another kristallnacht and terrorized the populace into acquiescence, which is, to reiterate, what anti-fascism is all about avoiding. Keeshhound posted:A wonderful thought, a pity that historically what has happened is that they get the poo poo kicked out of them, then usually search for weaker targets (read: minorities) to attack and make themselves feel big again.
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Jan 27, 2017 06:00
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So what I'm getting is that so far you expect groups of private citizens with a broad range of professions, abilities and temperaments, but all of whom have self-selected to join your nazi-hunting parties, who are organized to no particular standard, to have the ability to: 1. Properly identify fascists. 2. Pummel these fascists in such a way that they are humiliated and frightened so that they will hide themselves away and no longer seek a platform for their ideas. 3. Nonlethally. 4. But still painful enough that they are dissuaded from attacking minorities to try to make themselves feel better. 5. And enough to serve as a warning to others of a similar persuasion. 6. And for there to be enough groups that meet this standard to suppress this grassroots swelling of fascism in the US and possibly other parts of the global west. Am I misrepresenting your position at all?
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Jan 27, 2017 06:09
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Keeshhound posted:So what I'm getting is that so far you expect groups of private citizens with a broad range of professions, abilities and temperaments, but all of whom have self-selected to join your nazi-hunting parties, who are organized to no particular standard, to have the ability to:
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Jan 27, 2017 06:13
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Yeah, and just to address your probable quibbles with this: 1. It's not as hard as you think, and will get easier in the coming months and years. 2. Obviously. 3. I guess, though if the odd Nazi gets beaten to death by accident, I'm not going to shed any tears. 4. Obviously. 5. Correct. 6. You don't need to have 1:1 dedicated anti-fascist for every single Republican-leaning voter or something. You need to have enough people who are willing to: 1. protest fascism and beat the poo poo out of Nazi counter-protesters, and 2. counter-protest Nazi gatherings and beat the poo poo out of Nazis. We only need to disrupt their ability to organize and spread their hate.
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Jan 27, 2017 06:17
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wait wait wait... punching nazis is terrorism? okay i need to rethink this
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Jan 27, 2017 06:30
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It's not terrorism when I do it, right? I mean, I only want for my enemies to live in fear of violence, and if they step out of line, we will kick the poo poo out of them and burn their property. It's only fair, since they are Nazis(tm). They have swastikas on their forehead, that's how we can tell. If the occasional innocent is caught in the violence, that's just the price we pay for a free society.
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Jan 27, 2017 06:34
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Counterpoint: Republicans calling anyone to the left of the John Birch Society is anti-American traitors seems to have paid dividends. You can't shake hands with a clenched fist. But you can punch back.
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Jan 27, 2017 06:42
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some compelling concerns have been raised, here on page 22 of this thread, about issues w/ punching nazis. punching nazis in order to put terror in their hearts is unquestionably a terrorism. and others have pointed out, rightly, that violence generates bad karma that will eventually find its way back to us
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Jan 27, 2017 06:43
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Agreed. I don't want to take off my hands at the airport.
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Jan 27, 2017 06:49
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Pseudo-God posted:Due process, what's that? It's easy to justify your political violence when you feel you are doing it for a righteous cause, but do we really want to live in a society where we feel justified in attacking our fellow citizens based on the perceived assessment of their character? It is entirely possible for an individual to be smeared in public and then mobbed to death by a group that thinks it is doing the right thing, or for someone's words to be taken out of context and then it becomes open season. And if they try to defend their words, who is gonna listen to a Nazi anyway? The police and military are self-selecting and also are paid to do these things (righteously attacking people based on perceived assessment of their character) for a living, then receive the due process of not even having charges brought against them
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Jan 27, 2017 06:50
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This is a five year old's conception of morality. The heroes are perfect and never wrong, the villains are irredemable, evil for it's own sake, always lose and no one ever dies. I'm pretty sure even GI Joe has more nuance than this.
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Jan 27, 2017 06:52
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Calibanibal posted:some compelling concerns have been raised, here on page 22 of this thread, about issues w/ punching nazis. punching nazis in order to put terror in their hearts is unquestionably a terrorism. and others have pointed out, rightly, that violence generates bad karma that will eventually find its way back to us The law of Karma is cause and effect. It is a Nazi's karma to be punched in the face in this life and the next.
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Jan 27, 2017 06:53
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The villains here actually are irredeemable though and deserved to be punched, and punched some more 
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Jan 27, 2017 06:55
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it all comes back to this... the gritty, uncomfortable reality is that sometimes, in the chaotic clash of a fashbash, you will bash too much, or too hard, or a bash will be received by a non-fash, or the basher unexpectedly becomes the bashee. is it all worth it, in the end?
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Jan 27, 2017 06:58
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Calibanibal posted:it all comes back to this... the gritty, uncomfortable reality is that sometimes, in the chaotic clash of a fashbash, you will bash too much, or too hard, or a bash will be received by a non-fash, or the basher unexpectedly becomes the bashee. is it all worth it, in the end? When radical leftists start bashing non-fascists, then I'm open to the discussion. As long as it is contained, we have bigger fish to fry. Despite the recent rain, water remains a precious resource in California. If my house is on fire, I don't want the fire department to withhold using water because using a firehose on a burning house might cause people to use a regular hose to water their lawn.
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Jan 27, 2017 07:03
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Keeshhound posted:This is a five year old's conception of morality. The heroes are perfect and never wrong, the villains are irredemable, evil for it's own sake, always lose and no one ever dies. I'm pretty sure even GI Joe has more nuance than this.
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Jan 27, 2017 07:11
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I think you need to reread your Captain America .
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Jan 27, 2017 07:16
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 Spencer and Trump are all about how certain Supermen are our superiors.
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Jan 27, 2017 07:24
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FreeKillB posted:is the quote that set me off, but I noticed that soon after, there was : Republicans already live in fear of all kinds of poo poo that will never happen to them.
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Jan 27, 2017 07:49
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I'm curious for those insistent on perfect pacifism : How do you propose to negotiate with a man, in Spencer, who has openly advocated for the genocide of black Americans? What points of compromise do you find with him? Maybe just a little genocide? Culling the bottom 10% of achievers? Maybe only going back to segregation, so black Americans can maintain their current equal standards of living, just seperate from White America? Or just raising the incarceration rates, to salve the conscience, and those distasteful second-class citizens he goes on about are out of sight and out of mind bloodlessly. Do not compromise, because all portions of the Nazi's rhetoric are unacceptable, even in lesser degree. Punch the Nazi. Tell him to gently caress off with his abhorrent ideas. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 07:57
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