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EagerSleeper posted:
To be fair this is far from the first time the thread title was dropped, and it had a completely diffrent meaning in previous usages.
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Jan 25, 2017 20:08
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resurgam40 posted:I'd ask how Ange can be alive in Purgatory and alive in her own future, but Battler exists in those places concurrently as well... but given the agency Ange is displaying, it seems inappropriate to call her Piece Ange. Player Ange and Advisor* Ange, maybe? I dunno. Ange isn't on the gameboard, so naturally there's no Piece-Ange. This is just Ange. Call the one in Purgatorio Meta-Ange if you want.
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Jan 25, 2017 22:02
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Hooooy boy. Lurker here, I've pretty much binge-read the thread since two weeks ago and have so much I want to think and talk about since I've started. Much props for ProfessorProf for taking the time and effort to post these up, without which I would've never become acquainted with the wonder and terror of witches. I couldn't go back to lurking without at least posting my own thoughts on the murders and what may or may not have happened. Going to the core of the story, and what a lot of posters have already suggested, it's well established that the demise of the Ushiromiya family took place in a mysterious way that resulted in everyone's deaths except for Eva's, leading to these horrible recent events with Ange. Though it can be argued that Eva's survival here is merely one of many endings, and that she dies in the other episodes, it's my belief that there is only one series of events, with only the events on the island being obscured in mystery because of the storm and resulting island-wide closed room. This is further supported by the ending of the first episode revealing it was a story found in a bottle, and therefore likely an entirely fictional account. Once the room opens, the end result is accepted as fact, much as the closed room murders ending up in verifiable bodies but all the magical shenanigans taking place behind the closed doors without any living witnesses. Eva's survival is the only known fact of the island disaster, given that she didn't tell anyone what happened and not even the police could make sense of it...something I find really strange. Given all the tools forensic detectives have on their hands I can't imagine they wouldn't be able to figure out what happened from all the blood and bodies that must've been lying around in the aftermath. Even if all the bodies were gathered in the mansion and the whole place burned down evidence of arson should be everywhere. I can't make any sense of this other than police incompetence being a literary device to get rid of what would've been a cut and dried investigation and leave the only way of solving the mystery to the readers. So Eva was the only survivor, and as of now murder suspect number one. But I don't believe she was the main killer...an accomplice, possibly, and with blood on her hands, almost definitely. What we've seen of the conflicts between Beatrice and Battler and all the other (magic or not) events in the story so far, however, suggests there is much more to it than a simple 'Eva killed everyone to keep the gold to herself' story. Edit: Deleted. Turns out almost everything I was talking about was completely bonkers. 
Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Feb 1, 2017 |
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Jan 25, 2017 22:50
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Lycaeon posted:Given all the tools forensic detectives have on their hands I can't imagine they wouldn't be able to figure out what happened from all the blood and bodies that must've been lying around in the aftermath. Even if all the bodies were gathered in the mansion and the whole place burned down evidence of arson should be everywhere. I can't make any sense of this other than police incompetence being a literary device to get rid of what would've been a cut and dried investigation and leave the only way of solving the mystery to the readers. Remember this happened in the mid-1980s. Forensic science was nothing back then like it is now, especially in Japan, where forensics weren't adopted until much later. This isn't exactly Bones we're dealing with.
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Jan 25, 2017 22:57
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From how the Sumadera's are talked about and how they act. I think they might be a Yakuza family.
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Jan 25, 2017 23:34
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And as we seen with high profile cases, the police would be under pressure to get such a case done and solved fast - leading to detectives playing fast and loose with evidence.
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Jan 25, 2017 23:42
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The problem of evidence is why I lean towards there being a fire, especially since the official ruling was accidental death. It's hard for people to end up terribly mutilated or otherwise rendered unidentifiable by accident, but a sufficiently hot fire could do it, and that would be why Eva being at the secret love mansion would be significant. (She didn't happen to die in a fire because she was in the other mansion!) This entry definitely strengthens the idea that Eva surviving is canonical. Well, I guess surviving for a while, since she's dead again, and the mystery remains mysterious. I also think it lends credence to the idea that the whole scenario with Battler and Beatrice is playing out in Ange's head - it's just like her conversation with Maria. She's representing her search for the truth by imagining her big brother looking for it. The reason she's present in the future but also in Beatrice's hosed Up Tea Party Surprise is that it's all in her head anyway. The further development of Eva as the primary suspect, and Greasy Boss's insistence that Ange should look at her guilt objectively, mean to me that she's almost certainly not the killer. Again, this is about dramatic convention, not any kind of in-story evidence; it would just be deeply unsatisfying to go through all that and have her be guilty after all (unless a lot of work was done between now and the ending to enable that possibility, but I don't buy it). It's a much more satisfying conclusion if Ange is forced to get beyond her resentment of Eva, at least to the extent of understanding that she might not be a murderer.
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Jan 26, 2017 01:19
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So if Ange doesn't hit a rapid succession of construction nets, what happens to the money? Does it revert to the public trust, or move over to her mother's family?
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Jan 26, 2017 03:19
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Glazius posted:So if Ange doesn't hit a rapid succession of construction nets, what happens to the money? Does it revert to the public trust, or move over to her mother's family? It was stated that it goes to the mothers family. Unless Ange made a will that says it does not.
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Jan 26, 2017 03:56
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idonotlikepeas posted:I also think it lends credence to the idea that the whole scenario with Battler and Beatrice is playing out in Ange's head - it's just like her conversation with Maria. She's representing her search for the truth by imagining her big brother looking for it. The reason she's present in the future but also in Beatrice's hosed Up Tea Party Surprise is that it's all in her head anyway. I never gave much thought to the tea party battles between Battler and Beatrice being more than a meta-guide for figuring out the mystery, but having it all represent Ange's search for the truth of what happened makes a lot of sense, especially if the bottles containing the stories we've seen are the only clues available to the public. She could be pouring through each one of them in detail, and the magical events written inside them would lead her to believe that it was more than just a 'human' factor that took away the lives of her family. It could even be more given her own immersion in magic; her family might be trapped in a hellish purgatory of death and revival represented by each new story, with her big brother fighting a losing battle against a malevolent witch - a battle she desperately wants to be a part of. Finding the truth would finally put her loved ones to rest.
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Jan 26, 2017 08:04
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I love all of this because I was worried that I was the craziest broad in this thread. (I mean this in the kindest way possible. You're great.) Post more!! witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Jan 26, 2017 |
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Jan 26, 2017 20:36
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Tender Child Loins posted:I love all of this because I was worried that I was the craziest broad in this thread. (I mean this in the kindest way possible. You're great.) Post more!! I can say with all honesty and affection, crazy broads like you make this thread what it is.
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Jan 27, 2017 07:24
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Thank you all of you for making this thread the one I look forward to seeing new posts in. 
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Jan 27, 2017 07:46
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Lycaeon posted:This level of malice DOES NOT come from any sort of supernatural being. It DOES NOT come out of desire to torment others for amusement. NOWHERE ELSE does Beatrice show this degree of vehemence, even in her most vicious fights with Battler. It comes from a human heart...the heart of a person who has fallen deeply, hopelessly, foolishly in love and had that love trampled and spit on, to the point where their world goes dark and all that's left is bitterness and pain. My life was thrown off balance and I never regained my footing after that day, because I lost my ability to respect. An essential part of being human is to feel respect for those who may or may not be deserving of it. But it is equally human to feel painful disillusionment when someone or something you respected turns out to be much less than you thought. But the level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new DLC tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 27, 2017 14:04
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 As the violent sound drew a helix, it rushed up at me from below, threatening to swallow me up. Of course, even if I fight, there's no way I'll be able to win. And yet, running into the building would be like jumping into a dead end of my own accord. My enemies will increase in number with time. If I don't do something here and now, I won't have any more chances to escape. Then, three muscular black-suited men came into view below me. 1, 2, 3. Three people. In other words, everyone who had gotten out of the car. If there had been just one of them, I might've been able to dropkick them or something and smash them in the head, which might work out. But it really would be impossible with three of them. Wait, three...? If there's just three, I should be able to make it... I can do it...!   "What?! Y-You idiot, stop!! Look ooooooout!! Waaaaaaaaahhh...!!" "01 calling 12, is the package secure, we received a response. What happened?! Respond!" "...Sh-She's crazy... drat it..."...Nnnggg... Owow... See, that worked out perfectly, didn't it? There was just the three of them, after all.  BGM: Like the Gale It's a good thing the car they came in was right beneath me. Even if it wasn't as pleasant as a trampoline, it broke my fall... a little gently, a little roughly.  The roof of the car broke my fall, leaving a massive dent around my body. Car roofs are surprisingly delicate. I don't think it's because of my weight. Apparently, the three people on the stairs hadn't planned on me jumping down. It seemed they now realized that they'd been outwitted, and they were rushing down the stairs. I've gotta run and escape while I have the chance. I moved my body, making clunking sounds on the car roof. But I'd been naive. Of course they wouldn't all rush up the stairs without leaving one person behind. There was one black-suited man left in the driver's seat of the car that had broken my fall. He stuck his head out the window, and when he realized what had fallen on him, he jumped out. In a rush, I jumped off the roof, but the black-suited man's reaction was really fast. Either there was a massive reward for capturing me, or there'd be some harsh punishment in store for them if they let me get away. "15, secured, secured...!" "Owowowow...!! Ack, don't touch me like that, let go!!"I was mercilessly held down against the asphalt. I was being crushed face-down, covered and pressed upon from above. It was a hold without a trace of elegance, but it was extremely practical and left me no room for resistance. I tried to push back with both hands, searching for a way to resist, but I was being pushed down solidly, and I couldn't even tear myself off the asphalt. Then another car came, squealing its tires as it slid to a sudden stop. Is it all over now? "Gyah!!!"The man that had been crushing me let out a sharp cry. He was yelling straight into my ear, making my left ear ring. What in the world?! Along with the black-suit guy, I fell with a *thunk*. After landing face up, the first thing I saw...was an arm stuck out right in front of my eyes.  "...Amakusa...? What are you doing here...?" Amakusa grabbed my arm, easily pulled me up, spinning me around with himself as the center of gravity. Just when I thought it was a little like a dance, he flung me through the open door into the driver's seat. I climbed over the hand brake and slid into the passenger's seat. Pushing me in, Amakusa also got into the driver's seat. Since we suddenly accelerated while I was still on all fours, I had to kick and struggle around on the chair for a while, like a turtle that's been flipped over... Amakusa checked the rear-view mirror for cars in pursuit, but he flew into the artery of the big city without lowering his speed in the slightest. We sewed our way between cars one after another. Just like a chase scene in some action movie. I was shaken by this horrible driving and had trouble sitting back down.   "I'm fine. Humans are surprisingly durable. Next time I try to a escape a downward moving elevator, I'll jump out a window instead." "Hyahhahaha, I guess air dives are a hobby of yours, lady. Still, I'd recommend you grab a parachute next time." "Sure, if I remember to do it after leaping." "Hyahhahahahaha, <cool>!"He smacked the steering wheel, guffawing. Need an explanation for this flippantly-talking man?  He was originally one of Aunt Eva's guards. Didn't she start to hate him because he chatted too much? He was much younger than the rest of the guards, but contrary to his outward flippancy, he'd hopped from the First Airborne of the JSDF to the French Foreign Legion, placing himself in overseas private military companies and high-class security companies one after another, making for a pretty incredible and unique career. ...But I heard he deserted both the JSDF and the French Foreign Legion, and that he'll be arrested if he enters France again. Both of these flippant episodes were very typical of him. The guards were sternly told not to chat with me unnecessarily, but he came and took a pass at me, didn't he? Aunt Eva was apparently particularly put off by that... and had supposedly dismissed him shortly before she died.  "I was coaching some people at Blackwater. When I came back to the country during my time off, President Okonogi offered me a high wage." "...So, you deserted again? I wonder how a man like that can be useful for anything." "Doesn't count as desertion as long as I come back by next week. I talked with him yesterday. I was told that some troublesome people might come to call on you, lady." "Sorry that turned out to be exactly right." "My name probably came up since I know you, and I've got lots of crazy experience. Thanks to you, it looks I'm in for a happy vacation plus some pocket money." "...So, Okonogi-san employed you as my guard?" "He probably wants to buy some gratitude from you, lady. After I got fired, I was indebted to President Okonogi in various ways. He's got some dirt on me here and there, and now I can't say no to him. Hyahha!" "...Seems that getting indebted to Okonogi-san can be pretty costly later on. So, where are you planning on taking me?" "Anywhere. I'm employed until the weekend. Anything after that'll cost you extra." "How much per day?" "I'll take 50 thousand. Plus expenses." "If you stop cracking jokes, I'll double it. The period of employment isn't fixed yet. It might take several weeks." "...That'll be tough. I'll have to call my boss to get an extension on my vacation." "...Oh, is this about Rokkenjima?" "Exactly. What happened on that island 12 years ago? I want to investigate it with my own hands to my satisfaction." "Do you really expect to find anything new investigating something that old...?" "True. But this is a journey for my own self-satisfaction. Once that's over, I'll just throw my hands up and go over to the Sumadera family. Didn't Aunt Kasumi say something about how she wanted to serve me some matcha? Maybe she'll serve me tea as I kneel on sharp wooden blocks, clutching stones or something." "drat that sounds freaky, hyahhahahaha...!" BGM: Over  "...I see, thank you. What a shame, Okonogi. Shall I take this as your answer...?" "Letting her get away was your blunder. It has nothing to do with me." "...I do wish to prepare some matcha for you as well in the near future. The next time you're in Kyoto, please stop by. ...I'm going." "Oh, are you leaving already? I could offer you some chazuke first." "...*cackle*cackle* ...Hohohohoho...!!"With her back still facing Okonogi, she laughed softly, but with an increasingly shrill and hateful tone, using that as a substitute for a sharp parting remark. Just as she stopped laughing, her features suddenly changed to look like a demon's, but because her back was facing him, Okonogi couldn't see that expression. Okonogi watched her go, laughing cooly. His secretary whispered over his shoulder. "...Are you sure about this? Milady Ange is our company's primary stockholder. If the Sumadera family becomes her guardian..."  "...Still, it looks like that guy managed it pretty well. All that's left is to let Ange-chan do as she pleases. I'm counting on you, Amakusa." "...Hmm, yes. Shall we have them search for our runaway daughter? They are getting paid with our taxes, so the police must be of some use every once in a while. Hohohoho... When I left the mansion, I boldly told mother to leave it to me, didn't I? Do you intend to embarrass me further...? It looks like it might be better for me to serve some matcha for everyone at once, doesn't it? Our underground tea room is cramped, so you'll have to wait in line..." "N-No... We will search with everything we have." "...Ah, she really is a cute kid, just like Nee-san. Especially that way she freewheels and does as she pleases. Ah, now I can't see anything but Nee-san. Ah, I'm truly looking forward to it. If only I could invite Nee-san's daughter to my tea room, right...? Hohohohoho...!!"  "You're joking. He's my client. If he'd sold you out, he wouldn't have hired me, right...?" "...I guess that's true." "...Ah, so that's why you got off the elevator at the third floor." "Him having a car waiting in the underground parking lot was just too convenient. I figured Okonogi-san sold me out. Though I guess by now, it's impossible to prove whether there was an ambush set up in the parking lot or not." BGM: Moonlit Night "Huh...? He was talking about you, Amakusa...?" "I freaked when the elevator came and was empty. I wonder what would've happened by now if I hadn't been listening in on their radio." "...So what's going on? If I'd obediently believed Okonogi-san and gone to the parking lot, there would've been no need for me to do that jump off the third floor...?" "Pretty much, yeah. Well, it turned out okay in the end." "..."...What the hell. If I hadn't suspected President Okonogi, I could've easily escaped without getting caught in a tough spot.  No, since paranoia told me that it was better to assume that he'd sold me out, I supposed and concluded that 'He sold me out'. Because of my inability to believe in him, regardless of his truth, my truth became 'He sold me out'... I thought back on President Okonogi's words. Can you really call truth without certainty truth...? Truth can change completely depending on whether you have love or not. In the end, perhaps truth itself doesn't exist. There are as many interpreted truths as there are people who speak of the truth. If I can't accept something that fluid as truth, where does the truth that I really want to find exist? And is it something I'll be able to see with my eyes? ...Even if someone sticks the truth right there in front of me and says it's the truth, I might not be able to 'see' it...   BGM: Haruka "You told me something. You commanded me to search for the truth of 12 years ago. But there's something I'm not getting." "What's that?" "...What is truth? There are as many truths as there are people. There are as many interpretations as there are people. And those can be twisted by opinions and changed indefinitely. Is truth really that unfixed and vague?" "That's right. Truth is indeterminate. It can be like a particle, or like a wave, and it can hold conflicting forms at the same time. You are free to believe that the cat in the box is alive or dead. But the truth is very delicate. It can change its appearance just by being observed." "You're talking about stuff like Schrodinger's cat box? Nonsense. If you open the box, you learn the truth. Discussion about what happens before you open it is just an armchair theory." "That's right. And yet, in order to deny that abstract theory, you need to open the box. It is impossible to negate any idea about the contents of a box that cannot be opened. This is what truth is." "...As long as truth isn't denied, it keeps its form." "That's right. As long as truth isn't observed, it keeps its form." "In other words, if it isn't exposed, any reckless statement can suffice as truth." "Yes. Even if they contradict each other, endless ideas can exist as truth at the same time without being negated." "...So even something as screwed up as my family being captured by the Rokkenjima witch and shut up 12 years ago for all eternity... can exist as truth as long as we don't know what happened 12 years ago..." "This witch called Beatrice... forcibly made room for 'Endless' imaginings in the Rokkenjima of 12 years ago, enveloping all of it inside a cat box. Everything inside the unopenable box is truth." "...That's assuming no one opens it up. I just have to wrench it open. But that box was closed up 12 years ago, and I don't even know where it is. Even if I visit Rokkenjima, just what can I learn about what happened 12 years ago on that desolated island?" "Who knows? I wonder what you could learn. This is something that can only be done by the person who is able to walk around freely in the world of 1998, 12 years in the future: the final witch, ANGE Beatrice." "..." "Beatrice's game board lasts two days, from October 4, 1986 to the 5th. In other words, you're a piece who can move freely outside her game board. And even Beatrice cannot influence this future that lies outside the game board." "...If you say it like that, it sounds like I'm a pretty overpowered piece." "The future of 12 years later in which you are placed certainly is distant. However, the further a piece is placed in the future, the stronger power it holds. I told you, didn't I? The truth changes its appearance when it is observed." "Come to think of it, I heard something like that once. Even if one day, all of a sudden, a star in the constellation Centaurus were to explode, the light from that explosion would have to cross 4.4 light years, so it would take it four and a half years to reach the Earth." "That's right. In other words, even if the sun in Centaurus has already died, people on Earth won't be able to perceive that fact for four and a half years. Because no method of perception exists that is faster than the speed of light."When we learn that the sun in Centaurus has exploded... We Earth people will paint over our history of four and a half years ago with a new truth. We will revise history with a new fact: that it exploded four and a half years ago. However, for the four and a half year period until we learn that, despite the fact that it has already died, the mistaken truth that the sun of Centaurus still exists will be able to exist as truth.  "...That's right. By itself, the Rokkenjima accident gave rise to nothing but suspicion of a conspiracy involving Aunt Eva and the Ushiromiya family assets. But later on, it was dramatized and linked to the occult, and the conspiracy was painted over by the Legend of the Witch."Even though it was clambered over as a conspiracy at the time of the crime, later on, strange occult theories, which claimed that it was the work of the witch, ran rampant and began to paint over the truth of October 5, 1986... The conspiracy theories will probably be forgotten over time. And only the more bizarre, impressive witch theory will continue to remain as superstition, eventually covering up the conspiracies. "That's right. The false truth that exists before the light from an exploding star reaches Earth is almost like the conspiracy theory, which is a human theory. The wine bottle with a letter in it that drifted ashore several years later, the 'message bottle', painted over that theory and made things return to the occult theory, which is a witch's theory. That's right. A witch didn't exist during 1986. The witch took control of Rokkenjima because she was 'observed' several years later by us humans of the future, thanks to that message bottle...!" "...A small revision is necessary. The witch could have existed even during 1986. As one of many endless possibilities that can exist." "Certainly. She'd disappear if she were observed, so she curls up inside the cat box. That's what makes the message bottle so nasty." "...The witch tried to get out of the box. She made it so that she'd be observed, weeding out possibilities that conflicted with the witch theory. In other words, to make it impossible to negate her, she negated all possibilities other than the witch theory." "...What the hell. So in other words, Beatrice satisfied the Devil's Proof with a frontal attack. And, that was part of the witch's plan from the beginning." "The message bottle is information observed in the future after 1986. It cannot be observed by Beatrice or Battler. It can only be observed by ANGE Beatrice." "...I really didn't want to investigate the message bottle. After all, reading that would be like listening to the witch's say. I thought the witch theory was just a crazy fantasy, so I thought of it as nothing more than a waste of time." "...But Okonogi-san told me. You can't see things in three dimensions with only one eye." "You mean that while looking at it from the viewpoint of denying witches, you must also look at it from the viewpoint of accepting witches? That's a correct way of thinking. The number of viewpoints is like a denominator. If you have one viewpoint, the mystery in the numerator doesn't decrease in the slightest. However, the more your number of viewpoints increases, the more the mystery begins to be divided." "I understand. There was a message bottle that washed up on a neighboring island several years after the crime. That passed into the hands of a dilettante. I made an appointment with him, just in case."...I was able to hear Aunt Eva's say from Okonogi-san.  
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Jan 27, 2017 14:28
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Boy, this whole conversation between Berne and Ange about the nature of truth, and how until it is known just saying any old thing can suffice as truth, takes on a really sinister tone when compared to the real world, doesn't it? As does the capture and torture of somebody who doesn't do what you want just being treated as love... ProfessorProf posted:
Are you sure this is Ange speaking all these lines here? The conversation flows oddly if so.
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Jan 27, 2017 15:43
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I often get these things wrong. I'm at work, can someone check the game?
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Jan 27, 2017 15:46
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resurgam40 posted:Are you sure this is Ange speaking all these lines here? The conversation flows oddly if so. It's all Ange, yes. She even voices all those three lines, if anyone's still unsure. tiistai fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 15:50
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The definition of love that resurgam40 notes is distressingly common.
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Jan 27, 2017 15:57
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I wrote all of this out properly, but then accidentally closed the tab, so here's the cliff notes version: Rereading the last couple of updates of episode 3 in light of this (with Okonogi's advice in mind), we don't know that Eva is the killer. It is never stated in red that she is, we never find out what Beatrice says. We're meant to assume that she is, and both meta-Battler and Battler think she is. But maybe she's actually not. Even witchEva could be misdirection. Let's attempt find an alternative killer for episode 3 in the light of this new information: Who stands to benefit if EVERYONE on the island dies? - Clearly, Kyrie's family. So I present the Kyrie/Hideyoshi/Servant theory, AKA the "Kyrie mastermind's Ange's inheritance" theory: Kyrie knows Hideyoshi's company's failing. Offers him money to kill Rosa and Maria + Kinzo and the servants, enough to fix his problems. Probably, supposedly money from the inheritance they'll all share after Kinzo's dead. Together they kill 5 people on the first twilight. One servant is in on it. During the set-up of the locked rooms, the servant has an accident and dies. Eva finds the gold. Tells no-one but Rosa. Hideyoshi then kills Rosa and Maria while Eva sleeps. No-one except Eva now knows she's found the gold. Kyrie meets with Hideyoshi to discuss the success of the plan. This is where she gets the cigarette butt. She, Hideyoshi and Rudolf go for food, knowing that they're perfectly safe, as both killers are there and there's no-one else. One of them shoots Rudolf, then Kyrie and Hideyoshi shoot one another, in a mutual betrayal. Hideyoshi dies immediately. Kyrie is mortally wounded. She kills George and Nanjo before dying herself. Eva, Battler and Jessica are left alive. Either Eva then kills Battler and Jessica, they die in an accident (perhaps a trap that was designed to kill them anyway), or she hides them away permanently and claims that they are dead. It's more holey than a Swiss cheese, but I thought it were worth logic-ing it out. After all that, I still think Eva has to be the killer unless something really weird is going on. resurgam40 posted:Boy, this whole conversation between Berne and Ange about the nature of truth, and how until it is known just saying any old thing can suffice as truth, takes on a really sinister tone when compared to the real world, doesn't it? As does the capture and torture of somebody who doesn't do what you want just being treated as love... Yeah, it's like somewhere between post-modernism and modern politics in the USA. It's on point.
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Jan 27, 2017 17:37
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CottonWolf posted:During the set-up of the locked rooms, the servant has an accident and dies. Reminder that while she didn't actually manage to finish "None of the six died an accidental-" in red before Ronove stopped her, she was still going to. Also, I still don't understand how you guys think Kyrie is going to kill Nanjo. Their bodies were found around 1:30 PM or so and Nanjo was still alive well past 6 PM. A gunshot wound to the stomach might not kill instantly but that's almost 5 hours.
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Jan 27, 2017 18:20
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tiistai posted:Reminder that while she didn't actually manage to finish "None of the six died an accidental-" in red before Ronove stopped her, she was still going to. We don't have to prove that it did happen that way. We have to prove that it's possible for a human to have done it. Until it gets explicitly denied in red, that's good enough.
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Jan 27, 2017 18:22
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I love the Cowboy Bebop vibes from adding this onto a wacky chase scene. Feels like the next scene will go back to the plot of Battler, Ange, and Beatrice screaming at each other; but something tells me we have sit through Ange's lovely Life Being Flip Turned Upside Down: Part 8 before that happens.
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Jan 27, 2017 20:15
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So this talk Bern has with Ange shows something interesting if you go back and read the Lambda TIP. Lambdadelta described Beatrice as being able to make Magic in the human world, unlike her and other witches. Well here we see the process. Beatrice made this major event happen on Rokkenjima that nobody knows what happened. Just that a lot of people died. So anything could have happened there, it's like the multiverse the other witches flit around contained on a small Japanese island.
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Jan 27, 2017 20:24
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So is Beatrice's magic basically... headcanons and AUs? Is Rokkenjima just an RP Tumblr page??
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Jan 27, 2017 20:27
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Tender Child Loins posted:So is Beatrice's magic basically... headcanons and AUs? Is Rokkenjima just an RP Tumblr page?? The Meta World is literally Tumblr.
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Jan 27, 2017 20:42
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Somewhat interesting to note that the entire Beatrice line from Virgilia to Ange is, per Bern's profile, explicitly weaker than the Voyagers, which is why Lambda finds the Endless Magic's ability to work directly in the physical world (even if only in their territory) interesting
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Jan 27, 2017 20:49
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Tender Child Loins posted:So is Beatrice's magic basically... headcanons and AUs? Is Rokkenjima just an RP Tumblr page?? Pretty much I'd imagine. If nobody knows what happened on the island, and suddenly stories in bottles show up talking about a fantastical massacre caused by witches and magic the public probably went crazy with speculation.
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Jan 27, 2017 20:59
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Lycaeon posted:Pretty much I'd imagine. If nobody knows what happened on the island, and suddenly stories in bottles show up talking about a fantastical massacre caused by witches and magic the public probably went crazy with speculation. Which is great, because the structure of this LP is exactly like that. I have to wonder, then, when and where the bottles come into play. Who had the time, sense of cruelty, and motivation to write out a whole bunch of AU fanfics about the Ushiromiyas? Certainly not Maria as per the first bottle's signature, since it's such a tonal mismatch with the Maria we know now. Kind of seems like Kinzo could have written them. He certainly had the spare time, with lots of malice toward his family to process. But I can't see him as the culprit. Or Beatrice. So is the letter writer also the culprit, or are they two different parties?
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Jan 27, 2017 21:32
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Tender Child Loins posted:Which is great, because the structure of this LP is exactly like that. There's no telling that the letter writer was even on the island. It could have just been a slightly twisted kid doing it for kicks.
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Jan 27, 2017 22:19
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CottonWolf posted:There's no telling that the letter writer was even on the island. It could have just been a slightly twisted kid doing it for kicks. Given the level of detail and knowledge about the Ushiromiya family (It wasn't entirely made up, as certain elements are likely corroborated by Maria's diary and Ange's own knowledge) and the mythology surrounding Beatrice the stories contain, they must have been written by someone on the island, if not the culprit. It also wouldn't make much sense to go through each episode if they weren't fundamentally related somehow to what actually happened.
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Jan 27, 2017 22:40
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Do we have confirmation on there being multiple bottles? I think the only one the game described as a message in a bottle is the first story, and the people in the future times have only referenced one as well. (Which presumably is the same one.) The others could be additional bottles, or stories made up in other ways.
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Jan 27, 2017 22:47
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Hm...you're right. The game does only describe one bottle, or two if you read the last post a certain way. If that's the case, then how were the other two episodes found? I assumed they were bottles like the first... Ange's quote here: "I understand. There was a message bottle that washed up on a neighboring island several years after the crime. That passed into the hands of a dilettante. I made an appointment with him, just in case." suggests there could be a second bottle, if it's not a mistranslation. Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 22:54
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Lycaeon posted:Hm...you're right. The game does only describe one bottle, or two if you read the last post a certain way. If that's the case, then how were the other two episodes found? I assumed they were bottles like the first... I think that's probably the first bottle. I assumed that the second episode happened in a different universe. Isn't Eva declared dead in red in that one? My read was that the bottle was the first episode, where there's no red, so it didn't happen. It's just a story. The second has red in it, and if any of it is directly contradictory to red in the third episode, presumably they must happen in different "fragments". The third leads to this future.
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Jan 27, 2017 23:06
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I read that line the same way: meaning multiple bottles. Regardless, I think there's a strong possibility that each episode/fragment/universe = 1 bottle. Structurally that seems sensible and makes for a brilliant overall frame for the series. And also, if there was only 1 bottle, I don't see how that single story could kick off so many conspiracy theories among the public. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 23:07
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Tender Child Loins posted:And also, if there was only 1 bottle, I don't see how that single story could kick off so many conspiracy theories among the public. Yeah, that's fair. Though if it were already a scandal then the tabloids got hold of it, I could see how it might happen.
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Jan 27, 2017 23:13
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CottonWolf posted:I think that's probably the first bottle. I assumed that the second episode happened in a different universe. Isn't Eva declared dead in red in that one? There isn't any Red text on Episode 1 because the rule hadn't been made yet.
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Jan 27, 2017 23:21
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It's possible there's more than one, for sure. We're getting these weird theories from somewhere, after all. I just don't think we have evidence of it yet. We might find out when Ange visits the, uh, dilettante. (A dilettante in what?) I'm pretty sure Eva is dead in the first story, red truth or no. They found her with a stake buried in her brain, which is a bit tricky to fake realistically. In the second one, she's disemboweled and stuffed full of candy, which is similarly difficult. I'm not sure if we got any red truth on her death in that one either, even though the rule was operational at that point. Assuming that she's dead in the stories, though, neither of those can possibly be canonical. That isn't really a problem with the first one, because it's a message in a bottle, although that does imply something interesting that I hadn't thought of before: as someone said above, the writer knows too much to just be a random uninvolved party. Anyone who knew of that canonical version would know who survived. So either the person who wrote it was deliberately trying to write something fake, or they wrote it before the murders. If it's the latter, the author is likely the murderer or one of the murderer's minions, and the plan was to kill Eva as well. That might explain why a non-canonical path is taken there, since she unexpectedly survived. It makes me wonder if Kinzo is the ultimate mastermind here, since that feels like exactly the kind of weird bullshit he'd do as part of his magical asshattery. The whole first story could well be his BEEEEAAAATTRICCCHE murder fanfiction.
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Jan 28, 2017 01:28
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I do like how this theme of trust carries over into Ange. It's so tempting to trust other humans, isn't it?
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Jan 28, 2017 02:37
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  BGM: Rose   "...I-I only spoke of what I could comprehensively determine from his physical condition at the time. As a result, this year too, it just so happens-" "So, even though it's doubtful whether Dad'll last until the end of the year, he's still totally focused on his occult research. And you still say he has only three months left, Doctor?" "L-Like I said, Kinzo-san's-" "Shouldn't you be happy that our respected father is still in high spirits? Out of a sense of parental respect, each one of you is so eager to greet Father. I can see how upset you are that he's unwilling to meet with you." "...Considering that everyone has started aiming for the inheritance while the sun is still in the sky, I can understand why Father wouldn't want to see you." "Y-You've got it wrong, Natsuhi nee-san. We just, umm-" "Dad isn't immortal, and he'll die someday. We aren't telling him to die. We're just saying that he will die sooner or later. We're just talking together about how to prepare for that." "And that is precisely what is so disrespectful!!" "Stop it. You'll make your headache worse."Krauss told Natsuhi, who had risen from her chair in agitation, to sit down. Trying to smooth over the atmosphere, which had suddenly become filled with suspicion, Hideyoshi put on a forced smile and motioned for everyone to calm down.   "Hahaha... That's just like you, Hideyoshi-san. Even though you're saying the same thing, you make it sound so intellectual." "Yes, that's right. Unlike you, Nii-san." "Quit it. We aren't getting anywhere. So like we're saying, Aniki, forget all this about the inheritance. I don't even care if Dad hits us. To make a long story short, we wanna meet Dad directly and say hello. Even if he says he doesn't want to. If he's locked up in his study, we don't care if we have to borrow a key from Genji-san. Right, Rosa?" "...Oh, well, umm... it's not like we're forcing you... It's just... we haven't said hello to Father in such a long time. If his remaining life really is short, then there's a chance we might never be able to see him again... Today might be our final opportunity to exchange words with Father..." "That's right, just like Rosa says. If he only has three months left, it wouldn't be odd for him to pass away any time now, right? Are you saying that despite that, we don't even have the right to talk with him one last time? Regardless of the circumstances, isn't that just a bit too much...?" "...If greeting Father were truly what you wished to do, I'm sure he'd happily allow you to meet with him. But Father has already heard about the disrespectful topic you hope to raise! No one would want to meet with you under those conditions. The reason you cannot meet with Father is because of your own doing and nothing else, is it not?" "Heheh. Exactly. You shouldn't have to rack your brains to understand why Father doesn't wish to see your faces, right? Father has seen through all of your tight financial situations." "...What are you talking about? I don't have a clue what you're going on about, Nii-san." "Heheheheh! Did you really think I didn't know about the state you're in...?"Eva and the rest realized that he had seen through to their current lack of funds, and alternating between bluffing and returning to the point at hand and arguing back, they repeatedly pressed Krauss to let them meet with Kinzo. The sweet smell of the black tea Rosa had gone out of her way to buy had been completely wasted. The only thing she was glad about now was that the children weren't here for this. The fact that they'd gone to play at the beach right after lunch had been their only salvation. Eva made as though to tackle Krauss, and Hideyoshi and Kyrie cut in between them, trying to calm both sides. Then, Kyrie took a deep breath and spoke.  BGM: Scar Sound "What is it, Kyrie-san?" "...First, and this includes my husband as well, for many years, we have belittled the efforts you've made by living with Father and taking care of him. Isn't that right?" "...That's... well... We've got it easy since we get to go outside, but Aniki's been babysitting Dad for decades now, and that must've been a lot of work. I'll accept that, but what's your point, Kyrie?" "We must acknowledge that Krauss nii-san is Father's caretaker. Isn't that right? We've always feared Father... and have pushed the task of caring for him onto Krauss nii-san. Everyone should acknowledge his efforts. Isn't that right, Eva nee-san?" "...And so what? Nii-san is Father's caretaker? Don't decide things on your own, outsider!" "H-Hey now, calm down. Kyrie-san, what are you talking about?" "...Kyrie, please continue." "We should be more grateful towards Krauss nii-san and Natsuhi nee-san. We should thank them for always taking care of Father. It's our lack of gratitude that's to blame for these wasteful conflicts we keep having. Isn't that right, Krauss nii-san?" "...I'm surprised. I did not think you, Kyrie-san, would be able to understand our efforts, which even my true siblings have not stopped to consider." "...It's a natural duty for the Successor to the Ushiromiya Family Headship." "That's right. It's your responsibility as the Successor to the Headship, isn't it? It's because you take care of Father that we must acknowledge you as the Successor." "Hey!! Why are you bringing this up all by yourself?!! You're just an outsider-" "Wait, Aneki!! That's right. It's just like Kyrie says. Because you take care of Dad, you're the Successor, Aniki. It's just like you said." "...Oh-" "...Nn-"Rosa noticed, and then Eva did. Eva's barking demeanor towards Kyrie for advancing the discussion on her own disappeared in a flash, and she instead stared at Krauss and Natsuhi. Natsuhi couldn't understand that sudden change and was slightly flustered.   "Of course, we won't demand to be present at his deathbed. We wouldn't even mind being absent at the funeral." "...Oh? Where are you going with this? But I may as well listen for now. Let's hear your terms." "First. The term Successor to the Headship refers to the caretaker of the current Head, Ushiromiya Kinzo." "...Hmm. And then?" "Second. The duty of the caretaker is to look after Ushiromiya Kinzo for the rest of his life. To make things simple, the caretaker's job is to care for him until his final moments. You were prepared to do that from the beginning, Krauss nii-san, so that won't cause any problems." "Naturally. I have no objections to either of those terms. I am already carrying them out." With that sentence, all slack disappeared from Krauss's face. Natsuhi alone was still having trouble figuring out what it meant. "...Hoh. And just what are these... responsibilities of supervision that the caretaker bears?" "It means supervision so that Father can live the rest of his life in the best possible health. I'll be more detailed than that. In the case that Father dies anything other than a natural death, the caretaker will be deprived of his rights as caretaker, and his status as the Successor to the Headship will be lost. If that happens, the next highest in rank, Eva nee-san, will be selected as the Successor." "...Wh-What did you say...? How can you shamelessly speak such nonsense?!!" "Hohoh. My, my, the caretaker certainly has a heavy responsibility... However, people can die in many ways. For example, senile old people sometimes die when food gets caught in their throats. Normally, this is called death by old age in its broadest sense. But with your argument, that becomes a death by accident, and I bear the responsibility of supervision. This is unjustly disadvantageous to me." "I have no intention of forcing such an unfair argument on you. I'm referring to the kind of thing that the caretaker could have prevented beforehand by taking good care of and keeping his eyes on Father. It may be the caretaker's job to carry food to Father's mouth, but whether he swallows it or not is clearly outside the caretaker's responsibility. I would have absolutely no problems with the example you raise, Krauss nii-san." "...Hoh. So, what kind of case are you referring to that might cause the caretaker to be blamed for making a blunder?" "...Oh?" "It seems that right now, Father is in firm control of himself, but dementia might begin to set in. He might wander around when you aren't looking and get into some kind of accident, or he might get lost in the forest and go missing. Wouldn't this type of case clearly be the responsibility of the caretaker...?" "Father's mind is perfectly healthy! There is no need to bring up dementia...!" "'One day, suddenly, I saw Father go into the forest. I chased after him, but I couldn't find him. I called the police and searched, but after being unable to find him after seven whole years, I had him declared legally dead.' My point is that we won't accept it if you use a story like that to treat him as dead." "..." "When Father passes away, an autopsy will certainly be carried out, and we will confirm that he died of old age in the most general meaning, within the bounds of common sense. A death of any other cause will be held as the caretaker's responsibility. See? These are all things you have toiled away at all this time, Krauss nii-san. These aren't strange conditions or anything of the sort, right...?" "Y-You are mocking us, disgracefully so!! I find it hard to imagine why my husband must be coerced into a rule that disgraces him in this way!!" "...Actually, I've been suspecting it since last year. No, everyone here probably suspects it as well. Eva nee-san and Hideyoshi nii-san. Rudolf-san and Rosa-san too. Everyone has suspected it the whole time, but it was so frightening to imagine that no one actually said it."  BGM: Closed my Heart "...You mean the very last bit, the mystery of who killed Doctor Nanjo?" "That's right. The witch definitely said a lot in red. She mentioned the names of all 18 people and announced whether they were alive or dead, and then she claimed that there were no humans besides them. But with this theory, I can weave my way through that gap...!" "...I see. So, this is one of the answers that doesn't cause those two to contradict. Makes sense." "See what I'm saying? You catch on pretty quick. It's nice that I don't have to explain."  "That's it...! The witch mentioned the names of 18 people one after another, and announced whether they were alive or dead. And on top of that, she announced that there were no humans other than the 18. There was a single illusion in there."It wasn't guaranteed that the 18 names of people = the 18 people on the island. "When she named off all 18 people and announced who was alive and who was dead, she hid the name of culprit X, and instead mixed in someone who wasn't on this island...! By doing that, even though the culprit was on the island, she was able to leave him out of the list of living or dead people! The person who was mixed in wasn't actually on the island, so he didn't count towards the total number of people on the island." "By this, even though the culprit counted towards the total of 18 people on the island, it was possible for his name not to be listed! The two statements in red are completely independent, so this theory creates no contradictions...!" "If someone's name was used to hide the existence of the culprit, that name must satisfy several conditions. First of all, even though this person isn't on the island, they've got to be someone we think is on the island. Otherwise, she wouldn't have been able to trick us." "And it's best if this person happens to be dead. No alibi is more perfect than death. After all, at that point, the mystery was based on the fact that the crime was impossible for all 18 people. Is it something like that?" "Yeah, that's it...! And, that person was... Grandfather. Right now, there's only one thing Kyrie-san can be about to say. We thought Grandfather was locked up in his study, saying that he didn't want to meet anyone, but there's a possibility that he's actually dead already, and that Uncle Krauss is lying when he claims that Grandfather's alive...!" Maybe he was already dead, and Uncle Krauss and the others were conspiring together, trying to trick everyone...!! "...If Kinzo dies, the distribution of the inheritance occurs. However, if Kinzo doesn't die...no, if he dies, but it isn't announced, the distribution of the inheritance won't take place." "In other words, Uncle Krauss could have all of Grandfather's wealth to himself...! That's right, he's got more than enough motive!"Maybe a 19th person X really doesn't exist on this island. But a person X existed. And that person was the 18th person!  "In other words, there were originally 17 people on this island, not 18. Then, an unknown person X snuck in and committed the crime." "How's that, Beato?! Come out, I've just solved the final, biggest mystery from last time!!"As Battler claimed that forcefully, the crisp sound of clapping came out of nowhere, and their surroundings turned bright, becoming the usual witch's tea room.  BGM: Organ Short #600 Million in C Minor  "Even a lump of concrete can stop thinking! So, you have now finally evolved into a being with intelligence." "...You might say you've finally taken a step forward from the crying creature you were before, just licking my shoes and grinding your teeth. *cackle*cackle*!" "...I can't believe that stupid wordplay threw me for so many loops last time. My lameness pisses even me off!" "All right, Beato, time for a repetition request!! If you can announce that the 18 people on the island included Grandfather, just try and do iiiiiiiit!! Yeah, you can't. Because he was already dead. This is the end of your deceptiooooooooooon!!" "*cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle* Ahhahahahahahahahahaha...!! Well now, what have we here? ...Shall I slice that in two with the red truth?" "No, no, it might also be good to hold back for now and let you get all excited. If I'm going to push you off a cliff anyway, it would be more interesting to lure you to a higher place first. *cackle*!"As Beato sneered obnoxiously, she looked like she was searching for an expression that would tick me off even more. As though she was saying that the answer I'd reached was impossibly ridiculous. Compared to me, annoyed as I was with the witch's attitude, Gretel had a blank and composed expression on her face. Almost as though she'd expected the witch to act that way.  "What's wrong, Beato?! Don't act so tough!! I asked if you can repeat it! Answer!!" "*cackle*cackle*cackle*..." "...Stop it, Battler. The witch won't answer so easily. She won't do it until she thinks it'll benefit her." "What?! What do you mean...?" "You've been toyed with by this red truth in the games up until now, so the witch has used it many times. But now, the situation is different. You're trying to draw the red truth out of her... and are instead using it as your weapon. In this situation, there's no way the witch will keep firing off the red without reason. Right?" "Gretel, or whoever you are. It seems your mind is quite sharp, unlike Battler's. What a fearsome enemy I've welcomed in." "That is correct! When Battler hopes I'll use the red truth, do I have any responsibility to do so?!" "No! I don't even have a crumb from that croissant you ate this morning's worth of responsibility to please yooooooou!!" "Y-You bastard...!!" "Yes yes yes yes, that's the faaaaace! I started playing with the red truth just because I wanted to see that face! I have no reason to play around if it won't give me a chance to see you look like that...!" "...Heheh. You just don't like losing, right? Just saying whatever you can to trick me because you can't answer my demand won't work!!" "Don't be so full of yourself!! An answer like that could be cut to pieces without any effort!! But I won't go out of my way to speak in red. I won't say it because that's what you're asking me to do. Do you know why?" "...You just said it. You want to push him off at the sweetest spot. This ill-natured witch is saying she won't use the red anymore, because that's what you want. In other words, she won't go along with this game of telling her to repeat things anymore." BGM: Closed my Heart "That's it. Basically, it's the witch's right to use the red truth as she pleases. She doesn't have to use it at whatever time the human side desires. But even that depends on the sitution." "...The situation...? What do you mean...?" "The witch has no responsibility to respond when you tell her to repeat something. But it does become her responsibility if and only if your claim can destroy the witch theory. After all, in this trial court without a judge, that which is not refuted becomes the truth." "...Just like how the witch theory made by the witch... will instantly become truth if you collapse and stop thinking." "Then, since she doesn't have a counterargument for my guess, that means it's right?! It's right that the culprit is the mysterious 18th person X, and Grandfather is already dead?!" "...At least, until the witch argues back. Truth always loses to new truths farther in the future. The tricky part is that even the timing of the counterargument is up to the witch." "...In other words, maybe your reasoning just now was correct, or maybe the witch is refraining from arguing back even though you're wrong. Or, the witch may be ignoring it because it doesn't shake the basis of the witch theory in the first place, but either way, we can't tell the difference at the current time. Is that more or less it?" "*cackle*cackle*, *cackle*cackle*cackle*! drat you, Lady Bernkastel, for throwing in such a troublesome piece. Thanks to that, I'm losing all my lines!" "The witch has learned that she can respond to your demands to repeat phrases at a later time. Maybe you could even call it a delayed move." "...Sh-She's messing with me... So, even if I announce some mistaken reasoning, there's a possibility that Beato will intentionally let me flounder about without denying that guess, and at the very end, when I propose an even more massive line of reasoning, she can cut it off at the base, and spin everything around...?!" But since that bastard Beato learned this strange delay tactic, I can no longer confirm or deny my reasoning. This is like finally finding a staff that'll let me search around in the darkness, only to lose it right away. I'm just stuck now, right...?!! "Hey, hey, Battler, if you make a despairing face like that, I won't be able to stop drooling, you see♪ From the beginning, that staff was nothing more than something I gave you because you were so worthless." "All this means is that you can finally challenge me without a handicap, right? Kuhihihihihihihihi!" "...But that alone doesn't change the fact that demanding that you repeat things is one of Battler's ways to fight back. As I already said, as long as it's something fatal that'll destroy the witch theory, the witch is obligated to argue back, and therefore, to speak with the red truth. While the timing of that counterargument is up to the witch, it must be performed eventually. Isn't that right?" "Hmm, that may be so. If I cannot deny the 'tricks done by humans' theory Battler lays out by the time the game ends, Battler will use that as a reason to deny me, and it will be possible for him to proclaim his victory." "...So, should we view this as a restriction on the witch's side...? That the 'trick theory' laid out by the human side, in other words, what he tells you to repeat, must be countered during the game (during the episode)?" "That is so. Battler's goal is to show that he can explain the entire pleasant game I have laid out on this island with humans and deny me. If Battler succeeds in that, at that time, he will become the victor of this game." "Let me confirm the rules. Should we view the time the game ends as referring to 24:00 on October 5, 1986, going by the time of the Rokkenjima in the game?" "I have no problems with that." "At the time the game ends, the human side must state a theory using tricks for all of the mysteries, and if the witch side cannot argue back, the human side can proclaim its victory. Does that work?" "...Let us be more specific. When the game ends, the witch side will be given a chance to argue back." "Let's decide on an amount of time. One minute. If you cannot carry out your counterargument within one minute, victory will be proclaimed." "Then allow me to impose the same rule on you. At the time the game ends, the human side will be granted one minute to counter the mysteries it has been given. If even a single mystery has not been countered within that time, it becomes the witch's victory, and that game is over. It would be such a killjoy to have the game stopped for lengthy consideration, right?" "...You rear end in a top hat. Moving things along without me... But I more or less get what's going on. Even if the lines I demand that you repeat aren't countered instantly, they've gotta be countered eventually." "Yes, that's right. And that must happen before 00:01 on October 6." "...But be careful. She only has to cut up one of the things you tell her to repeat. You can't proclaim your victory unless you solve all the puzzles."
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Jan 28, 2017 15:17
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