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I can kinda see the point though. For part 6, Araki apparently wanted to make amends for the way he has depicted women in Jojo's, but maybe he overcompensated in a way: Jolyne (and a lot of the other cast too) is basically Araki taking a character that would in manga in general and even his own previous work in particular be typically a male role but this time a female instead and... well, that's it for the most part. Genderbending most of the cast wouldn't really change much anything. This is not to say that Araki shouldn't have done this or that it's an inherently bad way or anything, but I'm not sure if I would call "guy except girl" a particularly nuanced depiction of women, especially when I assume that was partly what he was originally trying to go for. I think he did a much better balanced job with Yasuho.
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Jan 27, 2017 19:23
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I think "guy but a girl" is really reductive of Jolyne I feel. While she may be more inline with other male manga characters, she is extremely different from her past five protagonists. She's directly confrontative and more outspoken than Jotaro who yare yare's in the back and lets others do the talking for him, while Jolyne instantly takes her own initiative and is pretty extroverted. It's clear she's way more raw and brutal than other JoJo's and is just a loving tank when it comes to taking hits, arguably more than Jonathan. She can also be pretty petty with how she treats Gwess and what she does to Romeo. Jolyne also knows exactly what she wants, she doesn't take Anasui's bullshit, but she's not a wall. She gets quiet and a bit flustered around Weather and runs to embrace (what she thinks is) him when they meet up after Green, Green, Grass of Home fight. We also see Jolyne taking a big sister role to Emporio and kinda F.F. too, rarely being nothing but kind to the former and goofy and silly with the latter. Jolyne is also the first JoJo allowed to be sexual. Yeah there's a ton of horny male manga characters, but for JoJo this is the first time a woman (and honestly the first time a man ever did) was allowed to just talk about much she likes to jack off and have sex. On top of all that, she's allowed to be scared. She worries she won't be able to stop Pucci and doubts herself. She blames herself for Weather's death and at the time, cares more about staying with him and mourning him rather than chase Pucci. Jolyne has a lot going on and just labeling her as basically a man and saying "Araki overcompensated by making a woman not feminine enough" is kinda weird.
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Jan 27, 2017 19:45
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tiistai posted:I can kinda see the point though. For part 6, Araki apparently wanted to make amends for the way he has depicted women in Jojo's, but maybe he overcompensated in a way: Jolyne (and a lot of the other cast too) is basically Araki taking a character that would in manga in general and even his own previous work in particular be typically a male role but this time a female instead and... well, that's it for the most part. Genderbending most of the cast wouldn't really change much anything. Whenever people start theorycrafting like this I feel like they always neglect to take the editors into account. If I had to theorycraft on my own my assumption would be the editors would be saying "Sigh, fine, look, you can make the main character a woman if you want but shes still going to have to punch stuff and act like a shounen protag". I have no idea what its like in the real world but in my headcanon editorial oversight is the reason for 99% of wierd poo poo in comics (also in Hollywood, look at the crazy mess every DC comic book movie turns into which im almost positive is from all the producers getting thier own say into the creative direction of movie, then it turns out to be bad because of Too Many Cooks in the kitchen)
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Jan 27, 2017 19:46
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Moltrey posted:I think "guy but a girl" is really reductive of Jolyne I feel. Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that's all she has going on, but yeah I was probably a little hasty there.
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Jan 27, 2017 19:55
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tiistai posted:Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that's all she has going on, but yeah I was probably a little hasty there. I totally understand if people have a problem with Jolyne's character, that's totally fine. I just think she's way more nuanced than the past five dudes, is way more than Just Another Guy and is really only passed by Johnny for depth of character.
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Jan 27, 2017 20:19
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I love that Jolyne inherited Jonathan's tankiness
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Jan 27, 2017 20:41
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I'm almost 100% sure that Jolyne could've survived the road roller
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Jan 27, 2017 21:08
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It's sort of a catch 22 to say Jolyne is not really a female character because she acts like a character type that is usually male. The whole point, I think, in showing a woman being a tough and badass JoJo, is to subvert the assumed masculinity of that role. She doesn't hide her femininity or sexuality, her father-daughter relationship is central to the story, and she even has female patterns of speech, so it's a far cry from writing a male character and pallet swapping to a woman at the very end. Saying a female shonen protagonist needs to act not like a shonen protagonist or they are basically a man is implicitly buying into the gender paradigm that Stone Ocean is trying to go against.
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Jan 27, 2017 21:18
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Moltrey posted:I'm almost 100% sure that Jolyne could've survived the road roller I'm 100% sure. she could have unraveled herself flat to the ground to avoid be squashed by spreading her surface area over a wider area.
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Jan 27, 2017 21:25
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FirstAidKite posted:I'm 100% sure. I mean, I really think she could just take it straight falling on her, not doing anything to stop it. Like it sounds crazy but....the girl can take a loving hit....
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Jan 27, 2017 21:39
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I don't think that any of the other JoJo's ever got caught jacking off, declared the "dawn of a new age" after seeing a trans persons junk or were jealous of snails being hermaphrodites. Jolyne is an excellent JoJo with a cool power.   
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Jan 27, 2017 23:06
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The best part about Jolyne being caught masturbating is it's the literal first thing that happens in Part 6.
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Jan 27, 2017 23:19
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Considering Jolyne and Hermes making the bet to see who can go the longest without doing it, and later on FF decides to live life doing the opposite of her instincts, I'm convinced Part 6 is a long episode of Seinfeld.
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Jan 27, 2017 23:25
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Waffleman_ posted:The best part about Jolyne being caught masturbating is it's the literal first thing that happens in Part 6. Araki was thinking up situations that would occur in prison and that's the first one he came up with
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Jan 27, 2017 23:35
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Momomo posted:Considering Jolyne and Hermes making the bet to see who can go the longest without doing it, and later on FF decides to live life doing the opposite of her instincts, I'm convinced Part 6 is a long episode of Seinfeld. That can't be true, part 6 has a better ending than Seinfeld.
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Jan 27, 2017 23:36
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Hypersexualizing the female protagonist is definitely progressive, good work boys
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Jan 27, 2017 23:40
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Olive Garden tonight! posted:That can't be true, part 6 has a better ending than Seinfeld. in Seinfeld they all go to jail... makes u think
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Jan 27, 2017 23:47
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Moltrey posted:in Part 6, they get out of jail... Of course... Stone Ocean is a sequel to Seinfeld!
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Jan 27, 2017 23:51
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Momomo posted:Considering Jolyne and Hermes making the bet to see who can go the longest without doing it, and later on FF decides to live life doing the opposite of her instincts, I'm convinced Part 6 is a long episode of Seinfeld. Anasui is the Newman in this scenario.
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Jan 28, 2017 00:02
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grieving for Gandalf posted:Hypersexualizing the female protagonist is definitely progressive, good work boys Having a sexuality is not the same as hyersexualizing them
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Jan 28, 2017 00:03
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grieving for Gandalf posted:Hypersexualizing the female protagonist is definitely progressive, good work boys She really isn't hypersexualized. She's the butt of some sex jokes but those 4 pages are probably 80% of the sexualization in part 6.
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Jan 28, 2017 00:22
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I haven't even read Part 6 yet, Jolyne's the bestgrieving for Gandalf posted:Hypersexualizing the female protagonist is definitely progressive, good work boys sexuality that belongs to the woman rather than solely being for the sexual gratification of the male viewer audience is very cool and good, yes Augus fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jan 28, 2017 |
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Jan 28, 2017 00:59
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Jolyne's sexuality is funny and relatable, whereas the other Jojos are weird pure boys or nasty, like Joseph
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Jan 28, 2017 09:33
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standard owl posted:Jolyne's sexuality is funny and relatable, whereas the other Jojos are weird pure boys or nasty, like Joseph 
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Jan 28, 2017 10:41
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You can only relate to Jolyne's sexuality if you masturbate at the first given opportunity even when it's inadvisable. That's blatantly not me, I definitely wouldn't do that, not me, I'm sure literally all the other posters in this thread would be able to relate but no, definitely not me.
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Jan 28, 2017 10:45
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that's a pure, healthy fetish, thank you very much
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Jan 28, 2017 10:49
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Johnny Joestar posted:that's a pure, healthy fetish, thank you very much I'm refuting standard owl's statement that Johnny is not funny and relatable
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Jan 28, 2017 10:52
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Johnny meant mosquito bites as in small titties, so yes, it's not normal.
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Jan 28, 2017 15:27
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horriblePencilist posted:Johnny meant mosquito bites as in small titties, so yes, it's not normal. Sometimes Formicophilia is just Formicophilia, man
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Jan 28, 2017 16:21
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Johnny is relatable because he genuinely liked Gyro's jokes and songs just like me.
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Jan 28, 2017 17:58
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Moltrey posted:I think "guy but a girl" is really reductive of Jolyne I feel. While she may be more inline with other male manga characters, she is extremely different from her past five protagonists. She's directly confrontative and more outspoken than Jotaro who yare yare's in the back and lets others do the talking for him, while Jolyne instantly takes her own initiative and is pretty extroverted. It's clear she's way more raw and brutal than other JoJo's and is just a loving tank when it comes to taking hits, arguably more than Jonathan. She can also be pretty petty with how she treats Gwess and what she does to Romeo. Plus Araki takes a fairly banal and overplayed backstory that is typically used for female characters with the whole "Troubled young woman whose attitude is rooted in massive daddy issues" and goes so above and beyond with it that it becomes something bizarre and wonderful and makes the character completely own it. It's something coded super strong as a 'background for tough lady' so I have not idea where people get "She's just a dude but a girl" because she's aggressive. The only way to make it more obvious is to have all the dialogue in her flashback just be "NO gently caress YOU DAD, I DO WHAT I WANT" as she steals his car.
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Jan 28, 2017 19:33
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Olive Garden tonight! posted:I'm refuting standard owl's statement that Johnny is not funny and relatable Johnny Joestar had a threesome with hot girl groupies, very unrelatable and possibly nasty Also, didn't Johnny share this fact during a "one last thing we've always wanted to tell each other before we go and probably get murdered by the President" moment? Gyro's out here revealing his birth name that not even his mom and siblings know, while Johnny goes with 'stuff that gives me a boner'
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Jan 28, 2017 20:10
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Plus Araki takes a fairly banal and overplayed backstory that is typically used for female characters with the whole "Troubled young woman whose attitude is rooted in massive daddy issues" and goes so above and beyond with it that it becomes something bizarre and wonderful and makes the character completely own it. It's something coded super strong as a 'background for tough lady' so I have not idea where people get "She's just a dude but a girl" because she's aggressive. It's also kinda neat that pretty much the same thing happened with Caesar and his dad, so it also works nicely as a callback. standard owl posted:Johnny Joestar had a threesome with hot girl groupies, very unrelatable and possibly nasty The boy's not used to having actual friends, leave him be. 
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Jan 28, 2017 22:27
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If you somehow think that the majority of things men talk about to their friends isn't things they want to gently caress or what gets them hard, you don't know much about men.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:42
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A friend telling you their fetishes is a powerful moment and shows the deepest bond between friends. Treat that knowledge with respect.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:54
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If it's a male male friendship, you actually mercilessly attack them for it and laugh at their poo poo taste, go home, look it up and realise it's actually pretty good, before laying into the banter some more.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:57
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Moltrey posted:A friend telling you their fetishes is a powerful moment and shows the deepest bond between friends. Treat that knowledge with respect. It's true. It's why I'm here, because you're all my close friends and I want you to know I like tough ladies and cute boys.
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Jan 29, 2017 04:38
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--which is why Yukako x Koichi is the best Jojo pairing.
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Jan 29, 2017 04:52
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Schwarzwald posted:--which is why Yukako x Koichi is the best Jojo pairing.  lol if you wouldn't let Yukako crush your existence.
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Jan 29, 2017 05:03
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I think it's creepy that Yukako basically love-potion coerced Koichi into love.
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Jan 29, 2017 05:04
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