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Yeah I'd be careful throwing around "Judeo-Christian" in general, since it pretty much only means "American Protestants."
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Jan 28, 2017 17:32
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We love the messiah
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Jan 28, 2017 18:18
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Bel_Canto posted:Yeah I'd be careful throwing around "Judeo-Christian" in general, since it pretty much only means "American Protestants." which is...exactly in the context of how I used it?
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Jan 28, 2017 18:31
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HEY GAIL posted:you may find this article inspiring, caufman. The author may or may not be religious, but this is exactly what you have been saying, with secular words. One of my Facebook friends shared that article the Sunday after the election. It really struck a chord with me. Haven't written my essay yet, but I know I really should. Hello again, thread. I posted a couple of times in the old thread, and I finally caught up with this one today. It is a comfort to me that most of the thread shares the same feelings I'm feeling right now.
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Jan 29, 2017 00:04
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is alcohol a feeling
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Jan 29, 2017 00:05
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HEY GAIL posted:is alcohol a feeling Don't let the Baptists know.
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Jan 29, 2017 00:27
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God told me he doesn't care how high I am. So drink up! As long as you consume it, and it doesn't consume you
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Jan 29, 2017 00:34
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HEY GAIL posted:you may find this article inspiring, caufman. The author may or may not be religious, but this is exactly what you have been saying, with secular words. Thank you, that was very relevant and inspiring. I also found meaning in what you shared from Pope Benedict XVI, and it reminded me that for believers, we do not merely seek out the truth, but the Truth seeks us and possess us.
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Jan 29, 2017 00:50
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Pour a 40 out for our bud St. Thomas Aquinas on his feast day today, the man who ruined the west in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen. Seriously, okay. Scholasticism was some nasty business. You know what the Protestants did with Scholasticism? About a hundred years after Calvin died, the Reformers were busy countering the decisions of the Council of Trent, which were made by Scholastics, so the tool they used to counter them was Scholasticism. So from the Lutheran Scholastics and Frances Turretin we get the doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy, because they used the method of disputation to prove that everything in the Bible was factually without error. It went away for a while (Turretin's son basically said "gently caress you dad Calvin never taught that") until suddenly it burst forth like a dragon from the sea to provide the driving impetus for Fundamentalism, which we are still dealing with today in the US. And then of course Scholasticism leads into empiricism on one track (Scotus, Ockham) and leads to idealism (Eckhart) on the other. The former went on to create secularism and the latter were declared filthy heretics. I have very strong views on the history of theology okay. gently caress you St. Thomas Aquinas but pray for us.
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Jan 29, 2017 02:33
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Why the dislike of secularism? A dividing line between church and state is, in my opinion, a good thing.
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Jan 29, 2017 02:52
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The Phlegmatist posted:Pour a 40 out for our bud St. Thomas Aquinas on his feast day today, the man who ruined the west in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen. Fight me
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Jan 29, 2017 03:17
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VoteTedJameson posted:I like those pointers, because they seem to cater to classic over-thinkers and second-guessers like myself. And they seem rooted in a tradition of intellectual curiosity. Caufman posted:Thank you, that was very relevant and inspiring. I also found meaning in what you shared from Pope Benedict XVI, and it reminded me that for believers, we do not merely seek out the truth, but the Truth seeks us and possess us.
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Jan 29, 2017 03:18
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Josef bugman posted:Why the dislike of secularism? Agreed. Everyone in this thread knows the kind of slapfights even Christians of the same denomination can get into with each other. Unifying the church and government is a great way to get the worst qualities of both organizations and the best of neither.
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Jan 29, 2017 03:45
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Josef bugman posted:Why the dislike of secularism? Nah, that part is good. It's mostly the idea that your faith tradition should be kept hush hush, only spoken in the private sphere and not the public. I assume you're familiar with that in the UK (you're from there, right) 'cause it's even more inappropriate to talk about religion there. This has created some problems in the US where those who readily scream from the rooftops that they are Christians are always part of the Christian Right, whereas the left tries to "purify" their Christian beliefs as a reaction to this, avoid mixing their faith into politics whatsoever and therefore sublimate their faith Worthleast posted:Fight me Your boy was gettin' a head start on Origen's perfectly spherical glorified bodies.
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Jan 29, 2017 03:45
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The Phlegmatist posted:Pour a 40 out for our bud St. Thomas Aquinas amen to that! didnt read the rest but amen as gently caress
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Jan 29, 2017 09:15
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The Phlegmatist posted:Nah, that part is good. It's mostly the idea that your faith tradition should be kept hush hush, only spoken in the private sphere and not the public. I assume you're familiar with that in the UK (you're from there, right) 'cause it's even more inappropriate to talk about religion there. Okay, so we've got a start point, but I would say that I would rather not have people consistently going on about their faith, especially in the political sphere, because it usually translates to "I am appealing to ultimate moral authority".
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Jan 29, 2017 09:17
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WWJD? more like, what DID Jesus do? walked around the world, didn't own poo poo, and spread love and wisdom. thats what we should strive to do. peace, love, unity, respect. PLUR bitches
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Jan 29, 2017 09:32
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Christianity mk. II: gently caress you St. Thomas Aquinas but pray for us.
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Jan 29, 2017 09:48
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The Phlegmatist posted:Your boy was gettin' a head start on Origen's perfectly spherical glorified bodies. Well-ordered self-love is right and natural. Sorrow can be alleviated by good sleep, a bath and a glass of wine.
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Jan 29, 2017 15:28
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Josef bugman posted:Okay, so we've got a start point, but I would say that I would rather not have people consistently going on about their faith, especially in the political sphere, because it usually translates to "I am appealing to ultimate moral authority". i'd say this only applies when politicians talk about being christian, when they talk about being muslim, for instance, it's not about appealing to moral authority but trying to break past the christian hegemony that exists in society
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Jan 29, 2017 16:16
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Josef bugman posted:Okay, so we've got a start point, but I would say that I would rather not have people consistently going on about their faith, especially in the political sphere, because it usually translates to "I am appealing to ultimate moral authority". I imagine that's because the term "Christian" used in public discourse has almost completely been captured by the right, and conservatives are much quicker to use their faith as a bludgeon to be correct 100% of the time compared to the left. I'm okay with freedom of religion, but not so much with freedom *from* religion as instituted in places like France (c'mon, let the Muslim kids wear headscarves to public school.) Mainly because religious literacy is so low anyway due to shying away from any sort of religious expression or education. I mean your average person thinks Sikhs are Muslim and that Buddhism is a nice peaceful hippie religion that would never do anything like own slaves or form anti-Muslim death squads or violently persecute each other over sectarian conflicts (all of which have happened.) And then there was that time they were building a (Russian? Pretty sure it was Russian) Orthodox church somewhat near Ground Zero in NYC and people FLIPPED out because they thought it was a mosque. I don't know how much of this is the usual Christian Right approach of refusing to teach kids about other religions and how much can be attributed to the inclination of modern society to force religion into being a private, personal matter though. I think religious education and acceptance of public expression of faith would go a long way towards fostering religious tolerance, so I'm all for it being required as part of history curriculum in schools -- I learned very little in school and some of what I did learn was a complete lie, so...
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Jan 29, 2017 16:57
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i don't know what you're talking about, daoists totally worship nature right (actual thing my history textbook said)
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Jan 29, 2017 16:59
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The Phlegmatist posted:I imagine that's because the term "Christian" used in public discourse has almost completely been captured by the right, and conservatives are much quicker to use their faith as a bludgeon to be correct 100% of the time compared to the left. The reason Christianity is so strongly associated with the right these days is because most of the 20th century was preoccupied with communism. So you could either be a leftist to varying degrees of "commie atheist", or you could make a stand against that by appealing to Christian values. Basically when a leftist wanted to appeal to ultimate authority, he took out ye olde Das Kapital, while rightists used the bible. Marxism has temporarily gone out of fashion, so leftism has now attached itself to what now passes as science and rationality, while the bible remains popular on the right. People are ignorant about other religions because people are ignorant of other cultures in general. The average white person who puts up a Buddha statue in their living room because it's "so peaceful" doesn't care one bit about pogroms in Myanmar, they just want Buddha as a product. And I don't think that would change if they regularly saw a bunch of Asian Buddhists practicing their religion in the streets. I remember the time before 9/11 when we essentially treated Islamic culture stuff the same way: Oh, prayer beads -- so spiritual. Oriental rug -- so beautiful. Wear a little blue eye amulet for good luck, read Goethe's musings about oriental spirituality, be vaguely in favor of the anti-imperialist struggle of middle eastern peoples. At no point did we think about any of these things in the context of their culture of origin, even though Muslims aren't exactly rare around here. The average person will never invest enough time to understand all the various cultures of the world. And schools have a hard enough time getting people to understand the basics of their own culture. And there's the additional problem that when you do try to teach people about other cultures, these programs tend to be hijacked by extremist groups from that culture (because they're the only ones who care). So Islamic education is funded by Saudi Wahhabists and Chinese religion studies gets funded by Falun Gong. Of course there's still academic studies, but that's not for everybody. In other words, I think informing people about other religions won't work and won't help. Those who care are already able to find that information, and those who don't care won't trust or remember anything you tell them. I don't have a huge problem with politicians making religious statements, but it shouldn't really influence politics. Policies that can only be argued for by using religious arguments (like creationism, forcing women to wear headscarves, only allowing public worship if it's Catholic, or what have you) are probably bad and have no place in a secular state. Policies where there are secular arguments on either side, they aren't exactly improved by bringing up religion. I guess I'm in favor of keeping religion private.
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Jan 29, 2017 17:30
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comparing falun gong to wahabbism is kinda hosed, considering one is a religious group persecuted in its country of origin and the other funds terrorism
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Jan 29, 2017 17:57
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Senju Kannon posted:comparing falun gong to wahabbism is kinda hosed, considering one is a religious group persecuted in its country of origin and the other funds terrorism Yeah, but in the spirit of charity I think what they were going for is that neither accurately represents the mainstream (whatever that means  ) of those belief systems.
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Jan 29, 2017 18:29
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P-Mack posted:Yeah, but in the spirit of charity I think what they were going for is that neither accurately represents the mainstream (whatever that means That's what I was going for. In the People's Republic of China, Falun Gong is widely thought of as a terrorist organization. But I was only comparing them in the sense that they both try to promote a very particular view of the religions they teach about, and one that has some quite strong opposition from within their own traditions. To be clear, even if we take all PRC claims at face value, Jihadist terrorism is still much worse.
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Jan 29, 2017 18:36
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My HS World History textbook had no mention of John Calvin but did talk about the French Wars of Religion. I guess the Huguenots just spontaneously came into existence. Really, I don't know. I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't listen or care, but the situation in the US (at least my state) as far as religious education goes is really dire. There are a large number of areas in the US where the religious landscape is like: bunch of Protestant churches who constantly fight amongst each other but are unified in their distrust of the foul Catholics and then like two black churches that mind their own business. That's pretty much the town I grew up in. You wouldn't really have the slightest bit of access to other people practicing their faith unless you saw it on TV or were taught about different faith traditions in your history courses.
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Jan 29, 2017 18:41
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The Phlegmatist posted:My HS World History textbook had no mention of John Calvin but did talk about the French Wars of Religion. I guess the Huguenots just spontaneously came into existence. I think we had one paragraph on Calvinism during the day or two we spent on the Reformation, mostly characterizing him as some kind of me-too guy with respect to Luther.
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Jan 29, 2017 18:47
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think we had one paragraph on Calvinism during the day or two we spent on the Reformation, mostly characterizing him as some kind of me-too guy with respect to Luther. Calvinism to me has always been that third color that shows up on 16th century religion maps.
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Jan 29, 2017 18:57
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honestly with the way public education works i'm not really sure a high school history class can spend much time on religion, and i'm not sure where else you can fit religion education (unless you like, take out p.e. or something). i'm not personally a fan of adding on more requirements for compulsory education, if only because that will then be subjected to standardized testing and the question of "who gets to represent the religion" one of the major reasons why my high school's educaiton on world religions was so bad was one, our teacher was a world history major in the sense that he studied european history and therefore had no real exposure to religions or even art and culture outside of that small sphere (serious talk, this college educated man tried to teach us that european art was objectively better than asian art because it was more photorealistic and looked to me, a high school freshman who read a couple college textbooks on japanese history, for advice on whether his instructions on japanese history were accurate) and two, there just wasn't good material on the religions or enough time to really cover what was necessary to cover. our chapter on buddhism was primarily focused on theravada interpretations, and where it began to talk about mahyanna it failed to really convey the complexity and plurality of mahayanna practices. it talked about zen, for god's sake, and zen's not that important in the scheme of japanese history! at the end of the unit i think people understood a little about the five precepts, but they certainly weren't properly educated on buddhism. and then we had chapters on hinduism and confucianism! how could you possibly convey those religions accurately in such a small amount of time? it's impossible, quite frankly. and it's why entire college courses are devoted to the introduction of these traditions and further study is relegated to further class taking. at best we could introduce a special "religious studies" elective that would attempt to take more time to discuss these traditions, but at that point we have to admit the large majority of people who would take these courses either expect an easy a or are the types of people who would self educate on the subject instead, and how does that affect broader cultural intelligence in the nation? we might be better off making ethnic studies a priority for social studies, as opposed to reviewing american history and european history constantly. that would necessarily include discussion of religion, but placed in the context of ethnic and cultural identity/history and in a way that can be better integrated into american school curriculum. and the question of "whose buddhism? whose daoism? whose hinduism?" can be settled much easier than otherwise
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Jan 29, 2017 19:07
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In my state there's a gap in history classes (it's like 9th grade: Nothing 10th grade: World History 11th grade: American History 12th grade: American Government/Economics) so there's an area that could be filled with "Survey of World Cultures and Religions" or something like that pretty easily, which might be helpful. But really I agree with you and think history education could definitely be better taught in the sense of "why this is important today" rather than spending months covering every single battle of WWII in both World and American History for like no reason. Or rather shift history education into more of a social-cultural focus, presenting it as one long narrative into the present day rather than "okay here's some stuff that happened, better memorize it." I mean what kind of cultural implications did the Battle of Midway have, but we spent like two days on that, in both World and American History, versus spending one on the entire history and practice of Islam in World History. It's like whoever wrote our textbooks was a milhist thread poster or something. So there's some fat that can be trimmed to give more time to cultural/religious history. I mean John Calvin is important seen in the light of Max Weber and the development of the protestant work ethic in the US, which currently has real-world implications in politics. It's not like these ideas are over the heads of high schoolers either.
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Jan 29, 2017 19:29
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The Phlegmatist posted:And then there was that time they were building a (Russian? Pretty sure it was Russian) Orthodox church somewhat near Ground Zero in NYC and people FLIPPED out because they thought it was a mosque.
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Jan 29, 2017 19:45
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Can't manage to find the news article again, but the minute the minarets went up people started shouting MOSQUE! MUSLIMS! INVADERS! until they actually added the Eastern Orthodox crosses (which are really cool by the way.)
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Jan 29, 2017 20:31
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I think world history and religion should get more of a focus in schools because I never took a world history course in public school I onlu learned euro-american history and the European history only in context to the birth of America
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Jan 29, 2017 21:05
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I can at least happily report our new bishop has sprung into action. He's been constantly 100% pro-refugee. Refugee from Syria, illegal migrant worker from Mexico, whatever, we got u fam. We...actually have housing that the diocese has built and stuff and we'll send you care packages and help you transition and integrate over here. Wish I had an ESL degree so I could help out.
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Jan 30, 2017 01:20
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Happy Sunday everyone! Hope everyone here made it to church. When I was younger I dreaded going to church, but now that I believe in God I'm starting to learn to love it. The stories, the rituals, the body of Christ, it feels good. I came out of Church today in the best mood I've been in in a while and had a kick rear end day where I spread a lot of love and got a lot accomplished. So, I'm curious, how was your Sunday? I wanna hear about it!
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Jan 30, 2017 01:29
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Had to leave early cause my son was getting sick so no Communion. However, we did get to hear a very moving homily on how the school attached to our parish is a place were the Beatitudes can be inculcated and nurtured. Our priest legit got choked up preaching on this...I love how much he cares about our school!
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Jan 30, 2017 01:40
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I LIKE COOKIE posted:Happy Sunday everyone! Hope everyone here made it to church. When I was younger I dreaded going to church, but now that I believe in God I'm starting to learn to love it. The stories, the rituals, the body of Christ, it feels good. I came out of Church today in the best mood I've been in in a while and had a kick rear end day where I spread a lot of love and got a lot accomplished. Wait, what denomination are you even a part of? Anyway it was cold and rainy. One of the altar boys burnt his hand trying to light the candles around the altar and ran off screaming into the sacristy. The priest's homily was about how everyone needs to send their kids to Catholic school, which was...bizarre. That was pretty much the weirdest Mass I've ever been to. But Jesus was there, so it's all good.
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Jan 30, 2017 02:07
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I was raised catholic but I go to an episcopal church now, not that I know the difference between any of the different denominations, or care. All I know is that I'm giving Jesus my soul because he was the best messiah and therefore probably has the coolest afterlife. Actually, I know he does, because I've seen it. Actually now that I think about it, I am curious what the difference between Catholic, Episcopal, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, etc. Care to educate me?
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Jan 30, 2017 03:13
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The Phlegmatist posted:I can at least happily report our new bishop has sprung into action. He's been constantly 100% pro-refugee. Refugee from Syria, illegal migrant worker from Mexico, whatever, we got u fam. We...actually have housing that the diocese has built and stuff and we'll send you care packages and help you transition and integrate over here. Wish I had an ESL degree so I could help out. Yeah, I used to be somewhat pro-Trump in that I thought he'd be entertaining and probably not all that bad. But yesterday I learned he literally ordered that Muslims from certain countries would be blocked from entering the US immediately, which lead to things like people who have lived and worked in the US for years suddenly not being allowed to leave the airport. This is not ok. He's either totally unaware of what he's doing and just throwing out orders without a thought of the consequences, or he's actually gearing up for some Hitler level discrimination. And that's the guy who could literally order to launch a nuclear bomb. Forgive me thread for I was terribly wrong about this guy. I hope he'll somehow be unable to continue his presidency. I don't know what mechanisms the US has to stop a rogue president, but you guys really need to do that. I think this is on topic because it's about religion. Anyway my Sunday was pretty good, I almost went to church but sort of turned around when I saw it was a children's mass. Later bf and I stopped outside the local Chinese church and listened to their very nice singing. Maybe I'll go in someday, but I really don't look Chinese so not sure if they'll want me there.
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Jan 30, 2017 03:41
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