|
Should it be legal for other people to assault you if they disagree with you? This poll is closed. |
|||
|---|---|---|---|
| Yes |
|
183 | 49.06% |
| No |
|
190 | 50.94% |
| Total: | 328 votes | ||
|
A nazi lived on my street in northeast ohio in ~1999-2002~ or so. His name was Otto Rauer. Nice old guy in his early 70s. I raked leaves for him and he paid me in old issues of National geographic. It was basically Apt Pupil IRL.
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 02:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 08:37 |
|
|
It basically comes down to me not trusting any of you fuckers to be the ones to decide two gets to be labeled a Nazi. Who is to say that you won't slip up, or target your enemies on purpose, or take their words our of context, and it's open season for violence. Another thing that is not often discussed is that violence and beating your enemies feels really really good, especially if you feel you are doing it for a righteous cause. It's like a drug, once you start beating people up you will start seeing Nazis everywhere. Your judgement becomes compromised, but who will have the courage to stand up to the angry murderous mob? Anyone who does will be labeled a Nazi sympathizer, thus a Nazi, and will be next in line for the fist massage.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:03
|
|
|
oh no, then we will have a bunch of nazis punched and possibly some trump supporters also punched on accident. what a shame
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:04
|
|
|
esto es malo posted:oh no, then we will have a bunch of nazis punched and possibly some trump supporters also punched on accident. what a shame And the Trump supporters will feel like they are being targeted for beatings, and organize into their own gangs for protection. Suddenly all their paranoia about how the liberals are out to get them will be validated, good luck getting the country back to civility once the line is drawn and the fighting starts.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:07
|
|
|
well it looks like people will just have to stop being trump voters then
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:08
|
|
|
Trump supporters already organize their own gangs, they're just called militias.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:10
|
|
|
Pittsburgh Lambic posted:the read i'm getting from the rest of the thread is that people believe that punching nazis feels good so they make up whatever excuse is necessary to justify doing it, despite its dumbness Vigilante violence against individuals who are using their constitutionally protected right to speech is wrong. However, some people try to legitimize the vigilante violence by calling it self-defense against future crimes.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:11
|
|
|
Pseudo-God posted:It basically comes down to me not trusting any of you fuckers to be the ones to decide two gets to be labeled a Nazi. quote:Another thing that is not often discussed is that violence and beating your enemies feels really really good
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:12
|
|
|
Rodatose posted:A lot of people don't trust a lot of other people to do the right thing, but the antifascists aren't the ones indiscriminately bombing foreigners, banning refugees or interring them in detention/concentration camps, running for-profit prisons, shooting kids in public parks etc As if any of those things justify violence when you do it. The government does something bad, suddenly it's ok to punch people in the street? How does that make any sense?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:16
|
|
|
Kubrick posted:However, some people try to legitimize the vigilante violence by calling it self-defense against future crimes. or alternately, dehumanizing the targets of the violence as though they were raised entirely on "destroy this mad brute"-style propaganda
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:17
|
|
|
MattD1zzl3 posted:A nazi lived on my street in northeast ohio in ~1999-2002~ or so. His name was Otto Rauer. Nice old guy in his early 70s. I raked leaves for him and he paid me in old issues of National geographic. It was basically Apt Pupil IRL.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:18
|
|
|
Keeshhound posted:https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/06/27/violent-clashes-erupt-sacramento-between-white-nationalists-and-antifascists The whole point of the "punching Nazis is okay" argument is that it will help to suppress Nazis/fascists, so anti-fascists being violent with white nationalists is not inherently a bad thing unless it somehow leads to the white nationalists becoming stronger and increasing/perpetrating their own violence. In this particular incident no one was seemingly hurt but antifascists (who went into the situation knowing that might be an outcome) and white nationalists (and who gives a poo poo about them, that's the risk they take being white nationalists). Also, I do not consider white nationalists experiencing violent push-back to be a bad thing at all! Maybe next time they'll be a little more hesitant to appear in public. What you need to show me to support your argument is some sort of historical situation where anti-fascists being violent against fascists somehow helped said fascists rise to power (or made society fall into anarchy or some similarly terrible result). Of course, you also have the option of arguing this from a moral perspective. If you believe that punching Nazis is immoral, that's a completely different argument, and you can try to make that argument regardless of whether Nazi-punching is a slippery slope to something bad. Most of the people in this thread consider punching Nazis to be, at worst, a morally neutral action (and at best a good thing), and I have a strong feeling that you and others arguing against them actually disagree with this moral assertion and are just choosing to make a pragmatic argument because you think it'll be more effective. For what it's worth, I'm not convinced that punching Nazis will suppress them or have any significant pragmatic use (other than just a Nazi being punched) either. But I'm even less convinced that it will be a slippery slope to something terrible, so, for me, it boils down to a moral argument. And I do not consider Nazis being punched to be an inherently immoral action. I actually do consider killing (or causing some more serious harm to) Nazis who haven't yet acted violently themselves to be immoral, but punching is usually not going to result in any permanent harm. I also do not believe that the law should be changed to allow Nazis to be punched. I just think that, on a personal level, it's okay and I would look the other way if I saw it happen. But I understand that creating legal exceptions to violence is probably a bad idea. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Jan 30, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:18
|
|
|
Rodatose posted:uh..... it actually doesn't? Militants have to be trained to do it to break social conditioning against violence, and even then they often end up with PTSD which is why this discussion isn't about the actions of militants, but the actions of raving idiots punching random people in the street but lol that you're worried about getting ptsd from punching a nazi
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:18
|
|
|
Keeshhound posted:https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/06/27/violent-clashes-erupt-sacramento-between-white-nationalists-and-antifascists Minorities are already being attacked dumbass, but I'm glad we live in a perfect world where hate crimes don't exist. Be careful, your white sheet is showing!
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:19
|
|
|
Keeshhound posted:They're a political group. We fundamentally disagree on this point. So I dunno, we're at an impasse. I disagree with the base of your assertion and I disagree with your slippery slopes. thread tell me, what do? I'm still pro-Nazi punching btw.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:19
|
|
|
Pseudo-God posted:And the Trump supporters will feel like they are being targeted for beatings, and organize into their own gangs for protection. Suddenly all their paranoia about how the liberals are out to get them will be validated, good luck getting the country back to civility once the line is drawn and the fighting starts. They do already, white supremacist gangs are a thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:19
|
|
|
SSNeoman posted:We fundamentally disagree on this point. So I dunno, we're at an impasse. keep on punching
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:19
|
|
|
Pseudo-God posted:As if any of those things justify violence when you do it. The government does something bad, suddenly it's ok to punch people in the street? How does that make any sense? I replied to earlier to you about your fears of 'opening the pandora's box' Rodatose posted:It's already open (see the indiscriminate killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent muslims that america celebrates and refuses to prosecute), just not against white christians at home who express a desire to enact a more organized and openly stated slaughter quote:Like I don't think you understand how much america shat the bed in destabilizing the middle east. I guess we thought we could violence it up halfway across the world and not feel the effects of it, but refugees fleeing the carnage we sewed and the constant stream of violent, dehumanizing propaganda that came with the war on terror has resulted in nations adopting more xenophobic policies worldwide and a refusal to hold accountable those enforcers who break the law in victimizing people on a racial/religious basis. Unpunished violence america inflicted on 'foreign policy objectives' went untreated for too long, and now it's spread because everyone thinks they can do the same and be just as corrupt.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:20
|
|
|
Pittsburgh Lambic posted:which is why this discussion isn't about the actions of militants, but the actions of raving idiots punching random people in the street militants are people who are militant, and are also often raving idiots causing indiscriminate violence I'd think you'd feel that way about state actors too considering your outlook stated in earlier in the thread is "everyone should just, like, chill out."
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:22
|
|
|
So tell me Kesshound, are GamerGate a political group? Where do we draw the line? Where do we draw the line I say???
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:22
|
|
|
I guess a lot of people ITT watched Inglourious Basterds and felt very differently about it than I did: "You can't mutilate the Jew Hunter like that! He's your prisoner!" "You operate a cinema! You can't just murder your customers like that! Some of those people who came to this high-profile gathering of Nazi brass for the debut of a propaganda flick might be totally innocent! You monster!"
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:22
|
|
|
Kilroy posted:I guess a lot of people ITT watched Inglourious Basterds and felt very differently about it than I did: Yeah, they read trump's presser for Holocaust Remembrance Day and went "well, if the president says all lives matter, who am I to argue???" swine gonna swine
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:23
|
|
|
"Schindler's List? That black and white film? Haven't seen it - seems boring, no?"
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:24
|
|
|
Rodatose posted:militants are people who are militant, and are also often raving idiots causing indiscriminate violence the term as i hear it is most often used to refer to crazy assholes beheading people and posting the video, nice deflection
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:24
|
|
|
SSNeoman posted:We fundamentally disagree on this point. So I dunno, we're at an impasse. To be fair, I think Nazis actually are a political group, but I also think that some political groups are uniquely and fundamentally different than others and should not be tolerated. So just because Nazism is also a set of political beliefs does not mean that it can be compared with other political views. edit: Also lol at Pittsburgh Lambic's post referring to "raving idiots punching random people in the streets." Last I checked Nazis are not just random people (and I think most people here would support arresting someone actually punching random non-Nazis). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Jan 30, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:24
|
|
|
Kesshound walks through a kindergarden class "okay now that we're in groups, let's talk about the newest book, the Hungry, Hungry Caterpillar. Which group will start on page 1?" He suddenly freezes and points a jittery finger at the source of the voice "I DISAGREE WITH YOUR INTOLERANT POLITICS! SURELY IF WE LET THIS DIVISION CONTINUE WE WILL ALL BE FRUIT!!!" EDIT: soz forgot you're against violence. Uhhhh kay. He runs away screaming about society before starting a foundation to help all children fight off the specter of fruit. Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Jan 30, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:24
|
|
|
some pretty solid debate & discussion itt
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:26
|
|
|
Rodatose posted:I replied to earlier to you about your fears of 'opening the pandora's box' I still don't get how those things lead to the conclusion that punching Nazis wherever you find them in the streets is an OK thing to do.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:26
|
|
|
Pseudo-God posted:I still don't get how those things lead to the conclusion that punching Nazis wherever you find them in the streets is an OK thing to do. that's because you sympathize more with Nazis than with victims of Nazis, hth
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:27
|
|
|
Pittsburgh Lambic posted:the term as i hear it is most often used to refer to crazy assholes beheading people and posting the video, nice deflection
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:27
|
|
|
PLEASe do not punch nazis as i am deathly afraid of punches!!! thank you!!!
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:27
|
|
|
Rodatose posted:so i'm guessing you think of it as whatever not-white people that the media tries to drum up as the villain of the week are, but army dudes canoeing a dead civilian's head or pissing on their corpse and then posting a picture of it doesn't count we're talking about two entirely different things at this point
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:28
|
|
|
Pittsburgh Lambic posted:some pretty solid debate & discussion itt Your side is trying to convince us that genocide is a political position. I do not, and cannot, accept it. We're uh kinda done discussing. yeah yeah inb4 im the intolerant liberal or whatever the gently caress
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:28
|
|
|
Pseudo-God posted:I still don't get how those things lead to the conclusion that punching Nazis wherever you find them in the streets is an OK thing to do. It's not about it being OK, it's that the trust in official actors to act even-handedly and defend those who are most vulnerable has eroded to a point where everyone is already building up their own defenses, at national and local levels Whether it's okay or not is a moot point, because it's happening, and the time to rationally talk about whether it was acceptable was back when society had a chance to hold either bad apples or a corrupt system accountable. Rodatose fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Jan 30, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:29
|
|
|
Rodatose posted:It's not about it being OK, it's that the trust in official actors to act even-handedly and defend those who are most vulnerable has eroded to a point where everyone is already building up their own defenses, at national and local levels most people i hear talk like that end up arming themselves to fight off the inevitable u.n. convoy invasion
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:30
|
|
|
trump got elected so it's time to TAKE THE LAW INTO MY OWN HANDS *runs outside and it's that Hatred trailer*
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:31
|
|
|
Pittsburgh Lambic posted:most people i hear talk like that end up arming themselves to fight off the inevitable u.n. convoy invasion so you know mostly insane white people, got it
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:34
|
|
|
Pittsburgh Lambic posted:most people i hear talk like that end up arming themselves to fight off the inevitable u.n. convoy invasion
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:34
|
|
|
owns
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 08:37 |
|
|
Legit waiting for remixes And also everyone else's hot takes before I reveal the twist
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 03:35
|
|