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"You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you." -Gandalf, Many Meetings The mere presence of the One Ring extended Bilbo's life, making him feel stretched. The Ringwraiths had worn their rings so long that they had completely faded into the wraith-world, being invisible in the real world without guises provided by Sauron. Hobbits and Men (and Dwarves in their own way) were creatures more purely of the physical world with a different spirit (and ultimate doom) than Elves and Maia which is likely why they responded to the ring by becoming invisible; temporarily being drawn into this other-world. "And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." -Gandalf, Many Meetings This is why Bilbo sees Glorfindal (Arwen in the movie) as a radiant spirit while wearing the Ring. The elves had their ultimate origins in fairy stories where the idea of a physical world and an other-world is common (the Seen and Unseen of the above quote). In some of his later writing Tolkien mentions that any elves who remained in the world long after the third age would eventually fade completely from the sight of mortals. While Tolkien striped away most of the traditional fairy elements for his Elves it's entirely possible he simply couldn't edit The Hobbit enough to remove invisibility as a property of the One Ring and came up with a story (based on his own influences) that fit the case and which works internally.
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Jan 28, 2017 12:43
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Right it was just a magic ring in the hobbit.
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Jan 28, 2017 14:30
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The discrepancies like that must have driven him crazy. But there's only so much you can do to retcon things into line. I read the partially completed 1960 rewrite of The Hobbit (which is much more gritty and realistic and LotR-like and gets as far as Rivendell) and have to agree wholly with the lady he showed it to who said "It's wonderful, but it's not The Hobbit." Between his decision to give that project up and his abortive Return of the Shadow which his heart also wasn't in, he must have felt like a failure even after a whole lifetime of what every critic would call immortal success.
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Jan 28, 2017 19:54
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Data Graham posted:I read the partially completed 1960 rewrite of The Hobbit where? i wasn't aware it'd been published
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Jan 28, 2017 22:15
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chernobyl kinsman posted:where? i wasn't aware it'd been published
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Jan 28, 2017 22:27
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wonderful, thanks
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Jan 28, 2017 22:45
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It's over 150$
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Jan 28, 2017 22:45
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euphronius posted:It's over 150$ not in this edition, which seems to be both volumes combined
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Jan 28, 2017 23:49
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Oh nice I don't know what I was looking at
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Jan 29, 2017 00:09
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The idea that the Prancing Pony is a gay bar is well-tread by this point. Even excluding the film (which makes this child's play), I'd like to go one step further. Gandalf, mighty wizard that he is, is also an old man who lead an all-men cross-country hike, yet shows no interest in any of them in particular. Bilbo and Gandalf have a friendship that strongly resembles a relationship that ended on amicable terms, yes, but the real truth is clear: When Saruman offered Gandalf a chance to stay, and join him, it was a chance to stay, and join him, to reignite their old flame that had faded with time. What it means that he declined this in order to watch hobbits hike is left as an exercise to the reader. Frodo and Sam are hardly worth mentioning, they were almost certainly a couple long before Bilbo's eleventy-first. (What kind of gardener comes by to trim hedges in the middle of the night? There's a much simpler explanation than that.) Though Frodo tries to break up with Samwise for his own protection, Sam refuses. He won't leave him. Merry and Pippin are just related enough that nobody's sure if it's weird or not. Aragorn is the token bisexual. Everyone else sees what's going on between Gimli and Legolas long before they do. And Boromir? Straight guy dies first. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Jan 31, 2017 |
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Jan 31, 2017 02:49
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please stop
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Jan 31, 2017 02:50
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Please don't stop.
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Jan 31, 2017 04:58
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Vavrek posted:Please don't stop. I'm almost there!
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Jan 31, 2017 04:59
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I'd rather have the elf-dick lady personally.
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Jan 31, 2017 05:07
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Uhhhhmmmm Boromir was clearly gay for Aragorn. Really though Legolas and Gimli are the gayest loving thing on this whole gay middle-earth and nobody will, in all seriousness, ever convince me otherwise. It's just too loving bad that even though Thranduil gave up his spot on the boat for his kid's boyfriend, Valinor is a place, not a heaven. Legolas ended up living forever over there and Gimli totally died after another couple hundo. That's my gay LotR fanfiction for ya. Everybody dies and goes to different heavens, the end.
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Jan 31, 2017 06:29
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imo valinor stopped being a place when the world was bent during the fall of numenor where the gently caress do hobbits go where they die normally anyway
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Jan 31, 2017 06:46
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Hobbits are just short fat Men, so they get the secret afterlife of the Second Children of Iluvatar.
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Jan 31, 2017 06:52
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no!!!
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Jan 31, 2017 06:56
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Tollymain posted:imo valinor stopped being a place when the world was bent during the fall of numenor They already live in holes in the ground, might as well just fill in the hole after death and complete the cycle
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Jan 31, 2017 08:03
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elise the great posted:Uhhhhmmmm Boromir was clearly gay for Aragorn.
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Jan 31, 2017 09:56
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Legolas could have stayed in Middle-Earth until Gimli died and then just killed himself to respawn in Valinor and saved everybody some trouble.
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Jan 31, 2017 12:48
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I've always felt Hobbits were a result of mass interbreeding of Dwarves and Elves.
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Jan 31, 2017 12:59
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Was there any homosexual element to Nordic/Viking societies - aside from homosocial bonding - or was that just a Mediterrenean culture thing?
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Jan 31, 2017 13:12
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elise the great posted:
I dunno, Frodo and Sam could give them a run for their money. Although Sam is bisexual.
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Jan 31, 2017 13:41
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Was there any homosexual element to Nordic/Viking societies - aside from homosocial bonding - or was that just a Mediterrenean culture thing? I mean I'm sure Vikings were occasionally gay because literally every culture everywhere has gays in it, it's part of the human condition.
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Jan 31, 2017 13:56
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Gimili loved forever in valinor and it is heaven as it is the literal abode of the gods.
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Jan 31, 2017 14:01
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Frodo and Sam were more of a wierd idealization of British inter class adoration and fidelity that probably never existed and is a reflection of tolkiens life long class guilt . Imho.
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Jan 31, 2017 14:03
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VanSandman posted:I mean I'm sure Vikings were occasionally gay because literally every culture everywhere has gays in it, it's part of the human condition. Yes, I'm sure there was gay love/sex, I mean was there any cultural manifestations of that? If you look at Roman/Greek history you can find a lot of literature and art dealing with the subject. I've never seen any northern images/stories similar.
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Jan 31, 2017 14:12
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long story short, yes, queer vikings existed, they were basically the lowest of the low in their culture, if you murdered somebody for calling you gay you would be considered wholly justified but also you had to be queer to be a magician
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Jan 31, 2017 14:12
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Tollymain posted:but also you had to be queer to be a magician 
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Jan 31, 2017 14:18
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euphronius posted:Frodo and Sam were more of a wierd idealization of British inter class adoration and fidelity that probably never existed and is a reflection of tolkiens life long class guilt . Imho. So Ted and Ralph from the Fast Show then.
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Jan 31, 2017 16:39
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Tollymain posted:but also you had to be queer to be a magician Been to Vegas. Checks out.
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Jan 31, 2017 18:22
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Yes, I'm sure there was gay love/sex, I mean was there any cultural manifestations of that? If you look at Roman/Greek history you can find a lot of literature and art dealing with the subject. I've never seen any northern images/stories similar. greek attitudes towards homosexuality were slightly different than those of the norse my dude Tollymain posted:long story short, yes, queer vikings existed, they were basically the lowest of the low in their culture, if you murdered somebody for calling you gay you would be considered wholly justified you did not have to be gay to be a magician, but magic (seithr) was considered inherently effeminate (ergi), so if you were a male sorcerer you were going to get called gay. odin practiced seithr and gets called womanly for it on occasion. women could practice it just fine, though. chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Jan 31, 2017 |
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Jan 31, 2017 20:39
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VanSandman posted:I mean I'm sure Vikings were occasionally gay because literally every culture everywhere has gays in it, it's part of the human condition. Calling a man gay in norse society was not cool: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergi
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Jan 31, 2017 20:46
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Alhazred posted:Calling a man gay in norse society was not cool: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergi It's "not cool" in most western nations, yet there's plenty of gay people.
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Jan 31, 2017 21:34
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You're just the other side of the lovely, jock, frat bigot coin if you insist that all homosocial bonds must be homosexual.
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Jan 31, 2017 22:34
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TildeATH posted:You're just the other side of the lovely, jock, frat bigot coin if you insist that all homosocial bonds must be homosexual. "homosocial bond" sounds like another word for "friend"
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Jan 31, 2017 22:57
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SHISHKABOB posted:"homosocial bond" sounds like another word for "friend" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI#t=22s
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Feb 1, 2017 00:51
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SHISHKABOB posted:"homosocial bond" sounds like another word for "friend" Kind of red pill to think people of different sexes can't be friends.
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Feb 1, 2017 06:19
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TildeATH posted:Kind of red pill to think people of different sexes can't be friends. The way your avatar and title text are oriented it looks like the person is frustrated that nothings on fire.
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Feb 1, 2017 08:42
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