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Yeah, Datasucker is a pretty elegantly designed card, it forces the runner to make less valuable runs onto either archives or into other servers. The problem cards are Yog.0 and Parasite. Of the two, parasite is really the only super problematic one. Yes Yog blanks code gates, but there are answers to it, it costs 5, and double stacked high strength code gates make it problematic in a non-parasite world. Parasite would be the only card that I would support removing from the game.
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Jan 24, 2017 19:32
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Thought experiment: What if Parasite was removed from game when it trashed a piece of ice? Expanded proposals: Blackmail RFGs on resolution. Rumor Mill names and blanks a single card. Also: When did the game have the most viable number of decks. Was it between Honor & Profit and Lunar 1? I think that period had: Kate GoodStuff, Noise Virus Spam, Andysucker, plus the off CT, Gabe, and Iain on the runner side. And HBFA, HB Glacier, PE "Cambridge" Shell Game, RP Fun Police, NBN Fast Advance, NBN Kill, and GRNDL Rush. I'm stretching here to be sure, but I'm trying to confirm that I'm not crazy and the number of not just viable decks has gone down, but that whole archetypes seem to be endangered species. ZorajitZorajit fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 19:52
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What is the worst piece of ICE? It's Tyrant, right? Even Burke Bugs is playable against a broke runner.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:12
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Pretty sure the greatest variety of decks was right before Mumbad. Almost all of shaper was good, anarch was starting to find their footing with headlock and Noiselock, Crim was wavering, but there was andysucker and Leela were pretty solid. HB was HB and had glacier and FA strategies. NBN was in kill and in FA. Weyland was hurting at this point because they couldn't threaten death as much as they could. You had white tree glacier and Cambridge trap PE.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:16
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Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:What is the worst piece of ICE? It's Tyrant, right? Even Burke Bugs is playable against a broke runner. Salvage and Zed 1.0 probably deserve consideration too. berenzen posted:Pretty sure the greatest variety of decks was right before Mumbad. This may be anecdotal to my meta, obviously NBN didn't win worlds 2014 (RP) or 2015 (ETF), but NEH represented a sea change for deck building because of how obscenely consistent it made NBN FA. Leela represented the first strong Criminal deck that wasn't Andysucker and was contemporary. But NEH was exacerbated by the SanSan cycle. I'd argue that pre-Mumbad, the field was still plenty diverse. Faust and D4V1D were also becoming dominant at that point. Mumbad's political assets, IG Prison would then become meta-breaking and define the current game. No judgement here, but I'm trying to get as clear a picture as I can because I absolutely loathe saying "It used to be better..." and doubly so if I can't demonstrate why. ZorajitZorajit fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 21:36
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ZorajitZorajit posted:Salvage and Zed 1.0 probably deserve consideration too.
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Jan 24, 2017 22:32
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Honestly, the top-level meta has never been diverse. We look at worlds 2015, and 11/16 decks were variations on Foodcoats, 4 were NEH Fast Advance, and 1 was RP on the corp side. Runnerside was Prepaid Kate, Noise Mill or DLR. Worlds 2014 was primarily NEH Fast Advance and Andysucker. In fact the top 8 was 6 NEH FA and 7 andysucker, top 16 was 8 NEHFA/9 Andysucker. I hate judging the impact of the metagame in high-competition, because in reality there is really only ever going to be 2-3 types of decks that are in ultra-competitive level games. It's just that now there are a bunch of cards that instead of boosting one specific archetype to the top, they negatively impact one or more archetypes to make them non-viable, which feels bad for the players that like to play those archetypes.
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Jan 24, 2017 22:37
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Pinpointing the 'best-balanced' time of Netrunner is pretty tricky. NEH happened before Anarch ever got really viable, maybe excepting the Anatomy Siphon variant. Jinteki went from being an afterthought to really obnoxious (RP Glacier) very quickly. Order and Chaos did more for NBN Kill than for Weyland itself. The rise of Anarch and the decline of Criminal coincided over a number of packs. I'd say it's either the end of Lunar, where Noise was having success and other good Anarch decks could have been built thanks to D4v1d and Inject, or early in SanSan; The Valley gave us Clot, eabling at least two runner factions to rein in Fast Advance, but you could also draw the line at Breaker Bay or Chrome City, though Criminals lost more ground while Anarch became even better with those two.
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Jan 25, 2017 17:30
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If Netrunner were a blind booster game instead of LCG (forgetting for a second the commercial viability), I kind of suspect that limited play would be the dominant format by far. Highly tuned, predictable constructed play seems like it's clipping the wings of this style of game. I don't really like playing against the same deck more than 2-3 times, personally.
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Jan 25, 2017 17:41
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Tyrant at least saw some play in semi-competitive Tennin decks. I doubt salvage, zed and red tape have ever been removed from their card sleeves by anyone
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Jan 25, 2017 17:44
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OhHiMaahk posted:Tyrant at least saw some play in semi-competitive Tennin decks. I doubt salvage, zed and red tape have ever been removed from their card sleeves by anyone Salvage makes a great bookmark.
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Jan 25, 2017 19:42
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GrandpaPants posted:Salvage makes a great bookmark. I prefer Bookmark.
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Jan 25, 2017 20:03
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Amazingly, Bookmark actually gets played in a good deck.
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Jan 25, 2017 20:13
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Tyrant in Tennin was always a fun splash. RSVP is also definitely not the worst in a deck running lots of upgrades. Zed, Salvage and Burke Bugs are all awful but I couldn't decide between them.
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Jan 25, 2017 22:20
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Burke Bugs is the worst because at least with the new advancable ICE support you can have a laugh with Tyrant, Woodcutter and Salvage.
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Jan 25, 2017 23:33
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The Deleter posted:Burke Bugs is the worst because at least with the new advancable ICE support you can have a laugh with Tyrant, Woodcutter and Salvage. How can it be bad if Whizzard hates it?
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Jan 26, 2017 00:15
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So is Whizzard dead or what.
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Jan 26, 2017 07:11
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General Battuta posted:So is Whizzard dead or what. He got Boomed
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Jan 26, 2017 07:53
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Aaron + Beth is gross. It let me get off a Quadruple siphon today without needing to pay to clear tags, and drew me 8 cards.
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Jan 27, 2017 02:15
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Double post but Here's an interesting article by SimonMoon on the state of the game of netrunner.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:49
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Sometimes I get salty and wonder if Employee Strike should be MWL'd as well. It's much more powerful than Cerebral Static*, it's in most Runner decks, and it disproportionately hits interesting and under-represented IDs with interesting abilities. *I think this is mostly because Corp deckbuilding is so restrictive that it's hard to find room for CS, whereas Runners are much freer to include cards like ES. I think this is also the reason that, although Runner currents have plenty of counterplay in theory (Corp currents, 2/1 or 2/0 agendas, FA in general, The News Now Hour) you see so little of it in practise. Corps have to defend against so many threats that there isn't room in the deck to include counters to all of them. (I also think for this reason Corp cards should generally be slightly stronger / more efficient / more flexible than Runner ones as a general design principle of the game) edit: actually that Simon Moon article goes into some of this stuff too. It's a good article, thanks for posting it. Zephro fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 19:44
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That article rules, thanks for posting it. It really highlights some of the major over-arching issues the game has, and I’m curious how we ended up at this spot. Seems like a mix of over-reliance on silver bullet cards and yellow getting all the best cards.
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Jan 27, 2017 20:28
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Part two of that article is out: https://stimhack.com/netrunner-and-balance-part-2-our-glorious-future/
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Jan 29, 2017 14:59
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berenzen - I make no apologies for that hideous RP Prison variant.
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Jan 31, 2017 21:37
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No apologies are needed. I'm the guy that likes to play CI7
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Jan 31, 2017 22:04
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berenzen posted:No apologies are needed. I'm the guy that likes to play CI7 Can you walk us through the most recent CI7 "go-off" turn? I can never keep the whole sequence straight.
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Jan 31, 2017 22:24
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ZorajitZorajit posted:Can you walk us through the most recent CI7 "go-off" turn? I can never keep the whole sequence straight. The Jnet version is easy: 1. Play power shutdown 2. If they haven't already quit, play AD 3. By now they have quit and you win
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Jan 31, 2017 22:30
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ZorajitZorajit posted:Can you walk us through the most recent CI7 "go-off" turn? I can never keep the whole sequence straight. Here's the basic idea: -Mirrormorph 2x Jackson and 1 efficiency committee -shutdown -ad: interns (install 5/3 agenda), rec order (get ad), biotic -ad: interns (3rd jackson), shipment from sansan x 2(eff com) -score effcom and take clicks -ad (rec order (get shipment from kayuga), interns (install 3/2), shipment from sansan the 5/3) -play 3x shipment from kayuga and score the other 2 agendas The combo is actually really straightforward once you've done it a couple times. The deck is hard because you typically have to win through a lot hate, and also realize when you can go off with a weird set of cards because something got trashed or is on the bottom of your deck or whatever. fomo sacer fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jan 31, 2017 |
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Jan 31, 2017 22:57
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Yeah, the basic combo is pretty easy. The hard part is figuring out how to combo through the hate or just go screw it and biotic labour and hard score agendas
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Feb 1, 2017 02:53
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If all I own is 1 core set and I want to buy more cards, which ones are the best first investments to expand my pool? I guess deluxe expansions would be good? because they never "rotate"? Amazon has a two of them for 18-23$ instead of the msrp of 30$. Although I'm weary of this, are the discounted ones just the least popular least fun deluxe expansions with the worst cards (Creation and Control/Order and Chaos)? namad fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Feb 1, 2017 |
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Feb 1, 2017 15:41
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Deluxe expansions are good to start with. Those two discounted ones are better than Honor and Profit, but both are weighted towards the runner in terms of card power. The ID's from Order and Chaos are better than those from Creation and Control imo. Both are worth picking up. The Championship decks are also good pickups - the Corp one more than the runner, as it's a more straightforward style of play. When Terminal Directive is released, the narrative campaign will be a good way to play if either of you are interested in the factions featured in it.
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Feb 1, 2017 16:17
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namad posted:If all I own is 1 core set and I want to buy more cards, which ones are the best first investments to expand my pool? Specifically: Creation and Control is Shaper and Haas-Bioroid Honor and Profit is Criminal and Jinteki Order and Chaos is Anarch and Weyland Data and Destiny is the three mini-factions and NBN.
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Feb 1, 2017 16:43
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namad posted:If all I own is 1 core set and I want to buy more cards, which ones are the best first investments to expand my pool? You don't have PMs so I can't message you, but I want to liquidate my Netrunner collection if you want to just get it all at once.
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Feb 1, 2017 17:00
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I've had this game for a week, just the core set, and I've played roughly 8 full games and 4-5 training games with friends - played as both sides multiple times. That said, with the CORE game and only using prebuilt decks that are recommended in the book, I have yet to see a Runner win a game - or really even come close. Is this typical for unmodified NR, bad luck, or 'get gud' poo poo? Expansions are already in the mail, I've just been frustrated every time I get "Runner" on the coin toss.
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Feb 2, 2017 14:30
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I've exclusively played the Core set for ~ year with my girlfriend and I think that initially during our learning phase the win rate favored the Corporation but as we both learned the ins and outs, now I would say our games slightly favour the Runner. Overall I think for both of us the swinging point was learning when and when not to make runs and that initially we were both too reticent to run on servers with no icebreakers to hand.
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Feb 2, 2017 14:35
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I'd say the core favors the Runner, if only because half the corps (Jinteki, NBN) are complete trash with that cardpool, while all three runners work decent enough. So, git gud, I guess. IIRC the best runner build for pure core set was Gabe with Magnum Opus, playing like a boring shaper with dank blue tricks and Account Siphons. With how poo poo the corp economy was at the time, a well-timed siphon could make or break the game on its own. Also, enjoy the relentless pressure of Noise while neither of you have Jackson Howards in the cardpool yet!
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Feb 2, 2017 14:47
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Lichtenstein posted:Also, enjoy the relentless pressure of Noise while neither of you have Jackson Howards in the cardpool yet! I have definitely played a game where Noise trashed so many of my agendas that I had no chance of winning short of grinding out the runners deck. My archives were like 5 ICE deep and it was sort of hilarious in a tragic way. I think it was with Weyland so I didn't even have many tricks to flatline with :@.
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Feb 2, 2017 14:50
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I guess at this point I make another pass at the rulebook, cause it feels like I'm missing something that makes the Runner not feel like he's constantly feeling desperate for a decent move. Noise is a good example because his entire gimmick can be negated with one decent ICE. Once he finds an answer to that ICE, the Corp can just throw another one on it and start the cycle over. It doesn't feel fun at all.
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Feb 2, 2017 15:41
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robotsinmyhead posted:I guess at this point I make another pass at the rulebook, cause it feels like I'm missing something that makes the Runner not feel like he's constantly feeling desperate for a decent move. Noise is a good example because his entire gimmick can be negated with one decent ICE. Once he finds an answer to that ICE, the Corp can just throw another one on it and start the cycle over. It doesn't feel fun at all. Anarchs are kinda iffy without the draw power and econ they got later on but core set they have Parasite/Datasucker to melt troublesome ice, Yog and other cheap breakers to trivialize low-strength, and Medium plus Noise's ability to pressure two centrals plus the scoring remote. That's assuming they don't just flat-out mill the Corp to death. In practice this is a bit harder because again, historically Anarchs fumbled along with a ton of huge power cards and not a lot of good basics, until they got the basics and became the flatout best faction
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Feb 2, 2017 15:52
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The trick to learning Runner is knowing how balls to the wall you can go facechecking ICE. If you've got no programs out, what's the worst that can happen? A single tag? Just don't run last click and you'll be fine. Losing a card or two? Do you have key combo pieces/singletons of breakers you really care about? Does this corporation have ICE that can inflict damage at all? Nasty looking bioroids? Run early in the turn and just click through nasty poo poo, no biggie. Once you have trashable programs out, it becomes more of a cardpool knowledge matter - what's the worst that could happen given the amount of creds the corp currently has? When it comes to Noise - core set Noise, mind you, where he's not yet at the "just chill and play solitaire tableau builder until the corp is decked" - it's all about pressure. Between mills and Datasuckers and whatnot, you nearly immediately turn all three central servers into major security risk for the corp. So you just keep on running and draining the opponent of clicks and creds as he has to rez poo poo ASAP and then finds themself without resources to actually enact their plans (building a proper remote, usually) as the cards keep flowing in their hand. And if they're spread thin and kept on the backfoot (having to shore up defences on servers you secretly don't really care about that much, clicking for creds as they're drained) you have ample opportunity to snipe some ICE with Parasites and open the server up again to hammer it with Mediums or force to invest in its protection again. A super-duper 5 ICE Archive is actually the best thing you can hope for - you don't really need to run that server all that often, so it's a lot of resources and tempo committed to a server you don't really give a flying gently caress about because you can just bide your time for a single 15+ cards access in the late game.
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Feb 2, 2017 15:58
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