Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

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Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

So on the subject of Russian memoirs, I've got 3 books that should be coming to me in the next month or so:

1. RED PARTISAN: The Memoirs of a Soviet Resistance Fighter on the Eastern Front

quote:

The epic Second World War battles between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are the subject of a vast literature, but little has been published in English on the experiences of ordinary individuals - civilians and soldiers - who were sucked into a bitter conflict that marked their lives forever. Their struggle for survival, and their resistance to the brutality of the invaders in the occupied territories, is one of the great untold stories of the war, and that is why Nikolai Obryn'ba's unforgettable, intimate memoir is of such value.

The author vividly recalls the German advance, being taken prisoner, the horrors of the prison camps and his escape, his experiences fighting behind German lines as a partisan, and the world of suffering and tragedy he saw around him. His perceptive, uncompromising account gives a memorable insight into the everyday reality of war on the Eastern Front.

2. Ivan's War: Life and Death in the Red Army, 1939-1945

quote:

Of the thirty million who fought in the eastern front of World War II, eight million died, driven forward in suicidal charges, shattered by German shells and tanks. They were the men and women of the Red Army, a ragtag mass of soldiers who confronted Europe's most lethal fighting force and by 1945 had defeated it. Sixty years have passed since their epic triumph, but the heart and mind of Ivan -- as the ordinary Russian soldier was called -- remain a mystery. We know something about hoe the soldiers died, but nearly nothing about how they lived, how they saw the world, or why they fought.

Drawing on previously closed military and secret police archives, interviews with veterans, and private letters and diaries, Catherine Merridale presents the first comprehensive history of the Soviet Union Army rank and file. She follows the soldiers from the shock of the German invasion to their costly triumph in Stalingrad, where life expectancy was often a mere twenty-four hours. Through the soldiers' eyes, we witness their victorious arrival in Berlin, where their rage and suffering exact an awful toll, and accompany them as they return home full of hope, only to be denied the new life they had been fighting to secure.

A tour de force of original research and a gripping history, Ivan's War reveals the singular mixture of courage, patriotism, anger, and fear that made it possible for these underfed, badly led troops to defeat the Nazi army. In the process Merridale restores to history the invisible millions who sacrificed the most to win the war.

3. Panzer Destroyer: Memoirs of a Red Army Tank Commander

quote:

The day after Vasiliy Krysov finished school, on 22 June 1941, Germany attacked the Soviet Union and provoked a war of unparalleled extent and cruelty. For the next three years, as a tank commander, Krysov fought against the German panzers in some of the most intense and destructive armored engagements in history-including those at Stalingrad, Kursk and K�nigsberg.

This is the remarkable story of his war. As the commander of a heavy tank, a self-propelled gun -a tank destroyer-and a T-34, he fought his way westward across Russia, the Ukraine and Poland against a skillful and determined enemy which had previously never known defeat. Krysov repeatedly faced tough SS panzer divisions, like the SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler Panzer Division in the Bruilov-Fastov area in 1943, and the SS Das Wiking Panzer Division in Poland in 1944. . Krysov was at Kursk and participated in a counterattack at Ponyri. The ruthlessness of this long and bitter campaign is vividly depicted in his narrative, as is the enormous scale and complexity of the fighting.

Honestly, and with an extraordinary clarity of recall, he describes confrontations with German Tiger and Panther tanks and deadly anti-tank guns. He was wounded four times, his crewmen and his commanding officers were killed, but he was fated to survive and record his experience of combat. His memoirs give a compelling insight into the reality of tank warfare on the Eastern Front.

Should prove to be quite interesting. I'll see about doing some summaries or something once I get to delve into them.

Anyone read these before? Thoughs, opinions?

Ensign, anything I should look out for?

# ? Feb 1, 2017 10:11

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# ? May 27, 2024 14:18

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

I was trying to read Ivan's war, but that's that.

# ? Feb 1, 2017 10:46

Thanqol: Feb 15, 2012; because our character has the 'poet' trait, this update shall be told in the format of a rap battle.

HEY GAIL, I'm looking for more good 30YW books and you did me a solid recommend with Wallenstein: His Life Narrated. Is there anything you'd recommend picking up?

Related content.

# ? Feb 1, 2017 10:58

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Following on from Tankettechat, how come so many armies have various kinds of lightly-armoured tank-style things these days if thinly-armoured tanks got their poo poo pushed in in WW2? Is it just the necessity of the fact you're either an MBT or an essentially unarmoured vehicle against most stuff even infantry can carry?

# ? Feb 1, 2017 13:05

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

spectralent posted:

Following on from Tankettechat, how come so many armies have various kinds of lightly-armoured tank-style things these days if thinly-armoured tanks got their poo poo pushed in in WW2? Is it just the necessity of the fact you're either an MBT or an essentially unarmoured vehicle against most stuff even infantry can carry?

Because you still want to have ground recon, and its better to have some form of armoured vehicle with an auto-cannon or such and the means to protect itself against infantry.

That's why Canada still uses the Coyote or why the US still uses the LAV.

Because otherwise your scouts would be rolling in Humvees or trucks.

# ? Feb 1, 2017 13:08

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Thanqol posted:

HEY GAIL, I'm looking for more good 30YW books and you did me a solid recommend with Wallenstein: His Life Narrated. Is there anything you'd recommend picking up?

Related content.

what do you want to learn more about?

# ? Feb 1, 2017 13:09

FastestGunAlive: Apr 7, 2010; Dancing palm tree.

spectralent posted:

Following on from Tankettechat, how come so many armies have various kinds of lightly-armoured tank-style things these days if thinly-armoured tanks got their poo poo pushed in in WW2? Is it just the necessity of the fact you're either an MBT or an essentially unarmoured vehicle against most stuff even infantry can carry?

I served briefly w an light armored recon (LAR) unit, which is equipped with LAVs. their main purpose is, well, recon. in large scale exercises simulating a traditional fight we would also do a lot of screening for the division, in order to force the enemy to deploy early. lavs are very mobile and lar has a light footprint so we were often used for flank security, raids, etc.up against any type of enemy armor the goal is to not become decisively engaged; keep them at the max effective range of our weapons and coordinate fire support.

lar also did some good work in afghan, out in the more open areas where their speed and mobility was useful for long range raids and patrols

# ? Feb 1, 2017 13:34

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Jobbo_Fett posted:

So on the subject of Russian memoirs, I've got 3 books that should be coming to me in the next month or so:

1. RED PARTISAN: The Memoirs of a Soviet Resistance Fighter on the Eastern Front

2. Ivan's War: Life and Death in the Red Army, 1939-1945

3. Panzer Destroyer: Memoirs of a Red Army Tank Commander

Should prove to be quite interesting. I'll see about doing some summaries or something once I get to delve into them.

Anyone read these before? Thoughs, opinions?

Ensign, anything I should look out for?

Reading Ivan's War made me weep like a little baby, so be prepared for some heartbreak.

# ? Feb 1, 2017 13:35

Greggster: Aug 14, 2010

Jobbo_Fett posted:

They offer very little in terms of defense for the crew, being defeated by heavy machine guns. Tankettes don't always have turrets, and their offensive weapons are usually machine guns and sometimes 20mm cannons.

Basically, there are maybe 2 conflicts where the tankette performed "well" and that's probably stretching it.

The start of the Second Sino-Japanese War, due to China being very limited in terms of armoured vehicles.
The Second Italo-Ethiopian War, because they didn't have anything to really counter armoured vehicles of any kind.

Cyrano4747 posted:

Tankettes are really vulnerable to MG fire. You can't be small and zippy with heavy armor. Note that the.50 MG was originally designed as an anti-tank weapon. Even AP bullets for any service rifle will rip through the half inch or so of armor that a tankette is going to have on a lot of surfaces.

Then you've got things like clusters of grenades and all the other ad hoc weapons that infantry used to kill real deal, full sized tanks

Ensign Expendable posted:

Tankettes are cheap, yes, but everything has a price.

1. The vehicle is very small and light, its engine is small and light to match. This means that mobility isn't exactly fantastic. Tankettes couldn't pass through even the simplest anti-tank obstacles.

2. Small means you can fit only two guys in there. One of them has to be the driver, which means the other has to be the commander, loader, and gunner all in one. This is a tough job, especially if you're not commanding just one tankette, but a platoon. Oh, also you have no radio, so have fun waving flags out of the hatch in between firing and loading the machinegun.

3. That light weight means you have a centimeter of steel around you, probably less. That's armour vulnerable to rifle caliber armour piercing bullets. Maybe even regular bullets, if you're unlucky!

4. Odds are you have no rotating turret. Even if you're fighting absolutely destitute bandits/bushmen with no anti-tank weapons at all, they can still dig a ditch for you to get stuck in (see #1) and set you on fire from directions where you can't shoot them.

5. Tankettes are armed with rifle caliber machineguns (aside from a handful of Polish tankettes that had 20 mm autocannons), so your weapon is completely useless against even the lightest fortifications.

Oh ok, I though the armour of a tankette would provide a little bit more protection, but if they can be dealt with with just regular service rifles then I can understand that there are a lot of better uses for both the steel in the armour, the engines and armaments.
Thanks for the insightful comments everyone!

# ? Feb 1, 2017 13:37

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

spectralent posted:

Following on from Tankettechat, how come so many armies have various kinds of lightly-armoured tank-style things these days if thinly-armoured tanks got their poo poo pushed in in WW2? Is it just the necessity of the fact you're either an MBT or an essentially unarmoured vehicle against most stuff even infantry can carry?

As I sort of alluded to, the situation changed postwar.

1. NBC protection became a major concern, which means even a lightly armoured vehicle is a big step up from otherwise.

2. Air dropping became a big thing, so reduced weight for cargo planes or even helicopters is a plus.

3. For a while ATGMs really overmatched armour on all but the heaviest tanks, so small-arms proof ATGM carriers made sense.

Stuff like BMPs aren't really tankettes, anyway.

# ? Feb 1, 2017 13:38

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Fangz posted:

As I sort of alluded to, the situation changed postwar.

1. NBC protection became a major concern, which means even a lightly armoured vehicle is a big step up from otherwise.

2. Air dropping became a big thing, so reduced weight for cargo planes or even helicopters is a plus.

3. For a while ATGMs really overmatched armour on all but the heaviest tanks, so small-arms proof ATGM carriers made sense.

Stuff like BMPs aren't really tankettes, anyway.

Yeah, I was more thinking of things like Scorpion, PT-76, and the Stingray, though looking at it it looks like most of those got ditched as soon as the cold war ended.

EDIT: Come to think does improvements in cannon quality also change things up? A WW2 tankette's got basically bupkiss in terms of armament, but most equivalents in the cold war have either a 30mm autocannon or at least a 75mm cannon.

# ? Feb 1, 2017 13:54

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

spectralent posted:

Following on from Tankettechat, how come so many armies have various kinds of lightly-armoured tank-style things these days if thinly-armoured tanks got their poo poo pushed in in WW2? Is it just the necessity of the fact you're either an MBT or an essentially unarmoured vehicle against most stuff even infantry can carry?

The specific problem with tankettes was that they weren't very succesful in the role of an ultralight tank/assault gun that they were intended for due to infantry AT weaponry's advances. They just weren't as effective in combat as visioned, and they had few other uses. Other light armoured vehicle types like recon cars and APCs are also occasionally used in combat but mostly they are designed with other specifications in mind, mainly withstanding sniper fire and mortar barrages that bar using soft vehicles close to frontlines.

Meanwhile there's a category of totally unarmoured but armed to the teeth light strike vehicles for deep recon missions where mobility is the key.

# ? Feb 1, 2017 14:01

Xerxes17: Feb 17, 2011

Panzer Deatroyer is an awesome book. I read it years ago and it has many interesting moments and many :black101:

moments where they put the "assault" in "assault gun".

Edit: Moments like "crushing vehicles under your SU-85, the loader firing a captured MG out of the top hatch and the commander flinging hand grenades everywhere" kind of :black101:

Xerxes17 fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Feb 1, 2017

# ? Feb 1, 2017 14:13

Panzeh: Nov 27, 2006; "..The high ground"

Thinly armored vehicles are still better than unarmored vehicles.

Also one of the most important factors in an armored recon vehicle is stowage and IFVs are great for that. The M8 traded its turret for more storage space to make something more useful for recon.

# ? Feb 1, 2017 14:17

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

Also worth noting that small arms armour penetration has actually decreased, in general. Your standard intermediate calibre AK 47 or PKM has a lot less penetrating power than a MG42 firing full rifle rounds.

EDIT: okay I might be confusing the different 7.62s with each other :p

Fangz fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Feb 1, 2017

# ? Feb 1, 2017 14:26

Gnoman: Feb 12, 2014; Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme

Fangz posted:

Also worth noting that small arms armour penetration has actually decreased, in general. Your standard intermediate calibre AK 47 or PKM has a lot less penetrating power than a MG42 firing full rifle rounds.

While true, that is more than offset by the increasing proliferation of heavy machine guns, light autocannon, and anti-material rifles.

On another subject, I own two excellently readable accounts of WWII from the German perspective: Hitler's Naval War (about the Kriegsmarine) and War Diaries of The Luftwaffe (about the Luftwaffe) written by Cajus Bekker. There are, however, two great flaws.

First, these books were written decades ago (late 60s and early 70s). A ton of information has become available since then via declassification and political maneuvering, and it would be nice to see this taken into account.

Second, he doesn't appear to have done a volume on the Wehrmacht.

This is annoying, because the author took great pains to ensure an even treatment of the personalities and of the merits (or lack thereof) of the equipment involved. Most notably, there's a complete lack of anything approaching "wehraboo"ism, and the poor decisions that lead to disasters such as the BF-110 and the magnetic torpedo are hammered hard.

Can anybody provide similar books that are up to date and cover all three branches?

# ? Feb 1, 2017 15:25

P-Mack: Nov 10, 2007

Nenonen posted:

Meanwhile there's a category of totally unarmoured but armed to the teeth light strike vehicles for deep recon missions where mobility is the key.

I remember these from the Pauly Shore film In the Army Now.

# ? Feb 1, 2017 15:32

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Good news 19th century era milhist scholars,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f93p5zdrELw

# ? Feb 1, 2017 16:01

Ensign Expendable: Nov 11, 2008; Lager beer is proof that god loves us; Pillbug

Jobbo_Fett posted:

3. Panzer Destroyer: Memoirs of a Red Army Tank Commander

I like how the summary for a book about a Soviet tanker talks about German tanks and units almost exclusively. The sad thing is that it's probably necessary for the book to sell well.

# ? Feb 1, 2017 16:10

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; Ultra Carp

P-Mack posted:

I remember these from the Pauly Shore film In the Army Now.

I'm more familiar with their appearance in the seminal classic Battlefield 2

# ? Feb 1, 2017 16:13

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

Ensign Expendable posted:

I like how the summary for a book about a Soviet tanker talks about German tanks and units almost exclusively. The sad thing is that it's probably necessary for the book to sell well.

Yeah, I was surprised by that. Sucks, really, as it'd be cooler if they just went and said something like "Nikolai XXX was a tank commander in the 7th Guards Tank Regiment" rather than "Woah, look at all these pimp Germans he probably only fought once or something".

:eng99:

# ? Feb 1, 2017 16:13

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Thanks for the recs, I went with "Seven days in January" and "Ivan's War", because both were very cheap :v:

# ? Feb 1, 2017 16:59

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Ivan's war is amazing, I can heartily recommend it :3

# ? Feb 1, 2017 17:02

Yooper: Apr 30, 2012

Jobbo_Fett posted:

So on the subject of Russian memoirs...

I went to browse a few of those and noticed that Pen and Sword books has marked down a shitload of their Kindle version to $1.26. I just bought a WWI Nurses Memoir, a history of the Spanish Succession, a memoir about the Murmansk convoys, and the list just keeps growing the further I go.

Yooper fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Feb 1, 2017

# ? Feb 1, 2017 17:39

Comrade Koba: Jul 2, 2007

Jobbo_Fett posted:

So on the subject of Russian memoirs, I've got 3 books that should be coming to me in the next month or so:

1. RED PARTISAN: The Memoirs of a Soviet Resistance Fighter on the Eastern Front

I've read this one! It's pretty good.

Phoneposting right now so can't give you an in-depth review, but I definitely recommend it. Would probably be suitable for a Krengel-style thread readalong.

# ? Feb 1, 2017 17:40

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

Comrade Koba posted:

I've read this one! It's pretty good.

Phoneposting right now so can't give you an in-depth review, but I definitely recommend it. Would probably be suitable for a Krengel-style thread readalong.

Someday I'll take the 2 volume Luftwaffe Geschwader War Diary I have and give the cliffnotes of each day. Which I think should span Poland to 1945

# ? Feb 1, 2017 18:04

Xerxes17: Feb 17, 2011

Yooper posted:

I went to browse a few of those and noticed that Pen and Sword books has marked down a shitload of their Kindle version to $1.26. I just bought a WWI Nurses Memoir, a history of the Spanish Succession, a memoir about the Murmansk convoys, and the list just keeps growing the further I go.

Oh gently caress yes. I have a bunch of physical copies, but I'm overseas now and will be for a while. Time to get digital! :v:

# ? Feb 1, 2017 18:22

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

It's not quite a tankette but the current war in the middle east does see, I believe, quite a lot of use of improvised armoured vehicles, basically however much steel you can weld onto a hilux or piece of construction equipment, with a machinegun bolted on top and/or packed full of dudes.

It works if your enemy doesn't have anything to counter it with, so, much like other tankettes throughout history.

Other vintage trends currently being sported by improvised armour: Multiple turrets.

The A7V

Erm... dazzle... camo..?

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Feb 1, 2017

# ? Feb 1, 2017 19:59

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

Iraq has even seen the return of the Wirbelwind!

# ? Feb 1, 2017 20:20

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

To quote myself from Middle East thread, that photo is so confusing visually. Is that turret on the MT-LB or is it on something behind it?

# ? Feb 1, 2017 20:25

Jamwad Hilder: Apr 18, 2007; surfin usa

its one of those laser turrets from the Hoth battle in Empire Strikes Back

# ? Feb 1, 2017 20:28

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

It... looks like they took out the right side turret and, well, "upgunned" it

As in, the gun is now a lot further up.

I really do hope it's actually on a tower behind the APC.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Feb 1, 2017

# ? Feb 1, 2017 20:28

Elyv: Jun 14, 2013

When I look closely it looks to me like it's on something behind the vehicle yeah

# ? Feb 1, 2017 20:45

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

Isn't that a BTR-50?

# ? Feb 1, 2017 20:58

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

JcDent posted:

Isn't that a BTR-50?

You're correct, the vision slits are unmistakeable but my attention was drawn away.

# ? Feb 1, 2017 21:18

Thanqol: Feb 15, 2012; because our character has the 'poet' trait, this update shall be told in the format of a rap battle.

HEY GAIL posted:

what do you want to learn more about?

Right now, the personalities and politics.

# ? Feb 1, 2017 22:30

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

chitoryu12 posted:

Iraq has even seen the return of the Wirbelwind!

Ahem, that is an Ostwind :spergin:

# ? Feb 1, 2017 22:38

Xerxes17: Feb 17, 2011

Taerkar posted:

Ahem, that is an Ostwind

Actually I think it's a Mittlerer-Ostwind :colbert:

# ? Feb 1, 2017 23:06

Rockopolis: Dec 21, 2012; I MAKE FUN OF QUEER STORYGAMES BECAUSE I HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH MY LIFE THAN MAKE OTHER PEOPLE CRY

I can't understand these kinds of games, and not getting it bugs me almost as much as me being weird

So, I'm off for a trip to France at the end of the month. I'll be staying for about a week. Is there any place you'd really recommend I visit or avoid?
Looks like we're going to stay in Reims, so Verdun is pretty close.

Also if I get locked out of the US, is the French Foreign Legion still hiring?

# ? Feb 1, 2017 23:11

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# ? May 27, 2024 14:18

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

Rockopolis posted:

Also if I get locked out of the US, is the French Foreign Legion still hiring?

Here's a handy how-to guide!

# ? Feb 1, 2017 23:23

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

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