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baka kaba posted:Then surely the ones that are staying, if it's all about the Brexit, should be skewing heavily in support of Leave. But you keep posting polls showing the opposite, to show how out of touch the leadership is I post polls to show a snapshot of public opinion. I imagine the ones who have yet to change their mind simply haven't given it much thought.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:38
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JFairfax posted:Tell me, how does labour appeal to voters in Middlesbrough by being pro-remain? I'm not sure it can. We've both agreed labour is hosed. This is the consequence of Corbynism.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:39
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So it's less a fact borne out by the data, and more a Mystic Flaps prediction
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Feb 4, 2017 01:41
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JFairfax posted:Pissflaps, in Middlesbrough:
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Feb 4, 2017 01:42
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baka kaba posted:So it's less a fact borne out by the data, and more a Mystic Flaps prediction What are you claiming I have 'predicted', exactly? Be specific. Use quotes. I haven't predicted a loving thing.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:42
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JFairfax posted:loving hell, through the brexit campaign corbyn was about the most real about all of this 'no the EU isn't perfect but it's better we stay in and try to reform it'. And then the moment it ends he's like 'let's declare A50 immediately'. And now Labour's (and let's be fair here, half the thread's) entire position is "uh, yes we love brexit so you loving moron bigoted leavers will vote for us" and "we'll fight with everything we've got to deliver a good brexit!!! except we'll vote yes on triggering A50 ASAP even if it violates our every principle" This is phoney as gently caress. baka kaba posted:Then surely the ones that are staying, if it's all about the Brexit, should be skewing heavily in support of Leave. But you keep posting polls showing the opposite, to show how out of touch the leadership is Because weirdly, even leavers don't buy into Labour's utter lack of conviction. jabby posted:That's so hilariously wrong. The press know that 99% of politicians are totally unprincipled. They only care about whether their position is one the owners of the press support. No one is ever going to get props for 'standing up for what they believe' if what they believe isn't right wing racism. They will never support Labour because Labour bent over due to fear of the press. They will just move on to the next issue. Come on people!
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Feb 4, 2017 01:43
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Fangz posted:And then the moment it ends he's like 'let's declare A50 immediately'. And now Labour's (and let's be fair here, half the thread's) entire position is "uh, yes we love brexit so you loving moron bigoted leavers will vote for us" and "we'll fight with everything we've got to deliver a good brexit!!! except we'll vote yes on triggering A50 ASAP even if it violates our every principle" it's more a case of, this has been voted upon in a referendum and we will go along with it. I may not like it, you may not like it, but it is consistent with a belief in democracy. now the whole referendum was obviously a stupid loving idea to begin with.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:45
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Corbyn's 'beliefs' are no use to anybody.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:47
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jBrereton posted:Labour's failing is saying and doing 2 different things and losing votes both ways. Ah, right. I misunderstood, apologies. Fangz posted:And then the moment it ends he's like 'let's declare A50 immediately'. And now Labour's (and let's be fair here, half the thread's) entire position is "uh, yes we love brexit so you loving moron bigoted leavers will vote for us" and "we'll fight with everything we've got to deliver a good brexit!!! except we'll vote yes on triggering A50 ASAP even if it violates our every principle" To be honest, Corbyn during the referendum campaign said exactly what I was thinking. I had a middling enthusiasm for the EU but I knew leaving wasn't going to solve anything. It was nice to have someone who was for it, but not crazy about having to be. But yeah, now I'm wondering what the gently caress he's doing. This is just sloppy in a way that his usual not-playing-by-the-rules isn't.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:48
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look pissflaps it's okay to say you hate him because he had a mixed race relationship, we know that's what makes you angry - that he likes 'urban' life so much
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Feb 4, 2017 01:48
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JFairfax posted:it's more a case of, this has been voted upon in a referendum and we will go along with it. Where is the representation of the other 48% of the country? Or, to be frank, the representation for democracy period, given that it's becoming increasingly obvious that Brexit is threatening the elected class and judicary?
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Feb 4, 2017 01:49
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spectralent posted:But yeah, now I'm wondering what the gently caress he's doing. This is just sloppy in a way that his usual not-playing-by-the-rules isn't. to be fair to the guy it's handling an unprecedented situation, and there is really no clearly ideal solution for labour. he believes in democracy and after parliament supported calling the referendum he's supporting the result of that. you may not like it, but it's a logically consistent position.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:49
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spectralent posted:Where is the representation of the other 48% of the country? Or, to be frank, the representation for democracy period, given that it's becoming increasingly obvious that Brexit is threatening the elected class and judicary? well this is why a yes / no referendum on such a contentious decision was always a really loving stupid idea. there was always going to be this problem to reconcile re: representation and I sure as poo poo don't know the answer.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:51
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JFairfax posted:to be fair to the guy it's handling an unprecedented situation, and there is really no clearly ideal solution for labour.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:51
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Democracy, as in the belief that if you win a narrow referendum with an arbitary amount of lies, you (an unelected PM) are allowed to interpret that decision however you want and no one can have a say on it, even if the situation changes and your lies are revealed and your decisions are going to lead to the literal opposite of what you promised.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:52
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jBrereton posted:If he believed in democracy he would go. The country at large is tired of him. His opposition to the EU is not rooted in democracy, it is rooted in him not liking the EU. he's won two leadership elections in the last two years.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:54
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jBrereton posted:If he believed in democracy he would go. The country at large is tired of him. His opposition to the EU is not rooted in democracy, it is rooted in him not liking the EU. This is a loving dumb argument. Fangz posted:Democracy, as in the belief that if you win a narrow referendum with an arbitary amount of lies, you are allowed to interpret that decision however you want and no one can have a say on it, even if the situation changes and your lies are revealed and your decisions are going to lead to the literal opposite of what you promised. Quite. If we respect the democratic decision, where's our miraculous surge of funding erupting from the ether into the NHS like Cameron into a dead pig?
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Feb 4, 2017 01:54
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JFairfax posted:he's won two leadership elections in the last two years.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:55
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Fangz posted:Democracy, as in the belief that if you win a narrow referendum with an arbitary amount of lies, you (an unelected PM) are allowed to interpret that decision however you want and no one can have a say on it, even if the situation changes and your lies are revealed and your decisions are going to lead to the literal opposite of what you promised. yeah, democracy is a bit poo poo sometimes and our particular form of it is debased and corrupted. no poo poo.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:55
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jBrereton posted:The membership voted to Remain. If he was just interested in their opinions he would be the head of a party that opposed Brexit. he did head a party that opposed Brexit, unfortunately remain lost the referendum.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:56
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The Tories should run a referendum on what should be done about Jeremy Corbyn. except lol why would they
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Feb 4, 2017 01:57
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JFairfax posted:he did head a party that opposed Brexit, unfortunately remain lost the referendum.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:58
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JFairfax posted:he did head a party that opposed Brexit, unfortunately remain lost the referendum. Where is the representation for half the country if all lawmaking and negotiating parties need to abide by the majority, however slim?
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Feb 4, 2017 01:58
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jBrereton posted:Only one in six people think he should be PM. Does that not signal he should go, if he believes in democracy? We hit the usual "Who else?" problem, though. Corbyn's proving kind of shite at handling this, but the neoliberal horse has long since bolted and that's the only thing the PLP seem prepared to offer.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:00
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spectralent posted:Where is the representation for half the country if all lawmaking and negotiating parties need to abide by the majority, however slim? I don't think it's a great situation, and clearly on such fundamental constitutional issues such referenda if you really must have them should be 2/3rds majority or something like that so there IS a clear mandate for something. this referendum was a right royal cock up from start to finish and continues to be so. jBrereton posted:Only one in six people think he should be PM. Does that not signal he should go, if he believes in democracy? opinion polls ain't elections you loving weapon
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Feb 4, 2017 02:00
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JFairfax posted:yeah, democracy is a bit poo poo sometimes and our particular form of it is debased and corrupted. no poo poo. Do *you* believe in this argument by so-called 'democracy'?
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Feb 4, 2017 02:00
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JFairfax posted:opinion polls ain't elections you loving weapon
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Feb 4, 2017 02:01
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spectralent posted:We hit the usual "Who else?" problem, though. Corbyn's proving kind of shite at handling this, but the neoliberal horse has long since bolted and that's the only thing the PLP seem prepared to offer. I am pretty in favour of just picking some random homeless guy off the street at this point. Like hey, even if Labour doesn't win, at least they'll have done something for one person.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:02
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Fangz posted:I am pretty in favour of just picking some random homeless guy off the street at this point. remember the ancient greeks at one point drew lots to decide who would be their politicians, so it has precedent
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Feb 4, 2017 02:02
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Fangz posted:I am pretty in favour of just picking some random homeless guy off the street at this point. I'd be alright with making a d66 table of thread posters and rerolling pissflaps. Serious hats on, though, who is there who's not poo poo? I couldn't see Abbot being anything but Corbyn lite, though I guess she'd have at least opposed Brexit. Watson turned out to be a prick who's afraid of the trots.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:06
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spectralent posted:We hit the usual "Who else?" problem, though. Corbyn's proving kind of shite at handling this, but the neoliberal horse has long since bolted and that's the only thing the PLP seem prepared to offer.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:07
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TheRat posted:Sarcastic moralising from the threads most tedious leave-voter. What a time to be alive. An ad hominem from the thread's most tedious rape advocate. What a time to be alive.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:14
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jBrereton posted:Who the gently caress cares so long as it isn't Corbyn, Abbott, Watson, or McDonnell. Any of the neoliberals will continue the growth of inequality and weakening of the social safety net, and will refuse to stand for any important principle if it might piss off the mythical center? And seriously status quo isn't tenable anymore. The west now wants revolutionary change and the only people apparently prepared to offer that are the right. Brexit and Trump weren't freak occurances. EDIT: Also what'd McDonnell do?
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Feb 4, 2017 02:16
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spectralent posted:Any of the neoliberals will continue the growth of inequality and weakening of the social safety net, and will refuse to stand for any important principle if it might piss off the mythical center? e: McDonnell is a loving joker to answer your question. Little red book at the budget, very droll. Good one. That's a vote winner.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:20
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jBrereton posted:The furthest right of even the parliamentary Labour party is about on par with the left of the Tories, and there is a lot of it to the left of that. If you are seriously trying to equivocate fuckin Angela Eagle with John Redwood you are a thick oval office and part of the reason the party is dying, alongside your pissant "uhh bluh bluhh the left can't form and distribute narratives as proven by corbyn not being able to" attitude.  I spent like two pages trying to get someone to admit there was a need for the left to make an immigration counternarrative, given you unhelpfully suggested that suggesting a counternarrative was only a way to lose votes without qualifying "if you say that while also hollering for controls on immigration". Whatever you've come up with off that you've misread badly. spectralent fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 02:22
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I just want my racist coffee mug why must you be so unhelpful??
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Feb 4, 2017 02:27
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I mean, the "anyone who isn't corbyn" thing hits this exact problem, because "anyone who isn't corbyn" is unwilling to present an immigration counternarrative (and, yeah, Corbyn's loving his up). We had what, a decade and a half of a not-corbyn labour government? The biggest takehome from that government on immigration was that Australia's attitude to migrants was a good thing. Giving the racist mug last election I'm not sure who's meant to be presenting this left-wing narrative waiting in the anyone-but-corbyn wings but I'm not confident they're winning the next leadership contest.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:28
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Pissflaps posted:What are you claiming I have 'predicted', exactly? Your last series of posts where you claim the polls show that "the labour voters that stayed labour voters sure as gently caress aren't going to stick around for pro Brexit Labour" and I said the polls don't show any evidence of this happening, and then you said "they have yet to change their mind"
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Feb 4, 2017 02:35
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spectralent posted:
A counternarrative is not a way to lose votes. At no point did I suggest that. I said the current and indeed long term former strategy of a half arsed joining in with the "yeah gently caress em" attitude while immigration actually soars was never going to work.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:36
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jBrereton posted:What the gently caress are you on about. immigration has not soared.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:42
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