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Being a party leader is largely about leading your party in Parliament, and therefore you need to have the support of your MPs to be able to do the job. We've seen with Corbyn what happens if a person becomes leader of a group of people who don't actually support them. e 128 AD: Hadrian's Wall is completed in Britain. While popularly supposed to be a means of keeping the Picts out of Roman Britannia, some historians think it may have been designed to collect taxes from people passing through. Paxman fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 15:15
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Fangz posted:I sorta agree that the idealised way things should work is that the membership should have some say, maybe, in the selection of the MPs but the MPs should just pick the party leader. US style voting for the party leader really only makes sense when the leader has some inherent power as a president or whatever, but the party leader's power derives only from the loyalty of his MPs. This is not true. The party leader has a lot of power, including in the selection of MPs. MPs represent their constituents. Party officials - including the leader - should represent party members. It's what they're for! Oh dear me fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 15:19
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MrL_JaKiri posted:How are you posting from back in the 1970s Haha. Fair point. I don't think we should emulate one any further, and should reverse that trend
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Feb 4, 2017 15:20
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Pissflaps posted:Tory members vote for the final two candidates nominated by their MPs. And the MPs get total control over the ideological stance of the candidates. If your views happen to differ from what theirs, you have no chance of getting representation. The left wing of Labour only got power by mistake. If your views align with theirs regardless of what you may think about Corbyn, MPs cannot be given complete control over the direction of the leadership.
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Feb 4, 2017 15:22
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I feel like this is reasonably summed up as "Labour's electorate and membership want different things". Which isn't surprising, really, given most of the country are small c-conservatives who've been radicalised for about twenty years by insane fabrications that people who care about politics have been laughing at for equally as long. Honestly now that I put it like that it sounds like we just have two mutually opposing and irreconcilable sides in society so I guess it'll be interested to see how the next english civil war goes.
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Feb 4, 2017 15:35
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So there's this argument going around that Labour had to vote for Brexit, otherwise their amendments couldn't get debated. This is complete bollocks, of course, but here's proof that it's complete bollocks:  
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Feb 4, 2017 15:41
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LemonDrizzle posted:Starmer was part of the 2015 intake - he was a QC/director of public prosecutions before going into politics. I know, but that's a job that she adjacent to the political system and gives him a clear record that can be pointed to as to how he would conduct himself asa political leader. Perhaps that isn't right (as a trainee solicitor with an LLM in human rights law, I have particular views on the relationship between the judiciary and politics in the professional sense) but it's what can and may happen.
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Feb 4, 2017 15:56
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spectralent posted:
Won't be much of a war tbh. The electorate is a lot bigger than labour's membership.
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Feb 4, 2017 15:59
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Pissflaps posted:Won't be much of a war tbh. The electorate is a lot bigger than labour's membership. Most of them are really stupid and would be no use other than walking over minefields. The real issue is the recent right-wing tilt of STEM people.
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Feb 4, 2017 16:02
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jabby posted:And the MPs get total control over the ideological stance of the candidates. If your views happen to differ from what theirs, you have no chance of getting representation. You could vote for a candidate from a different party? Regarde Aduck posted:The real issue is the recent right-wing tilt of STEM people. I have to admit this STEM thing baffles me: why do people have a problem with people who study these sorts of degrees?
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Feb 4, 2017 16:02
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Don't think Labour let candidates from other parties vote in the leadership election
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Feb 4, 2017 16:04
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Dabir posted:Don't think Labour let candidates from other parties vote in the leadership election No but if a party doesn't reflect your views you can choose to vote for someone else.
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Feb 4, 2017 16:06
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Regarde Aduck posted:Most of them are really stupid and would be no use other than walking over minefields. The real issue is the recent right-wing tilt of STEM people. I'm not really seeing this right-wing tilt. I've been in the software development field for more than a decade and like 80% of my coworkers have always been either center or slightly left-wing.
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Feb 4, 2017 16:07
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What if no party reflects your views?
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Feb 4, 2017 16:07
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Dabir posted:What if no party reflects your views? Isn't that what independents are for?
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Feb 4, 2017 16:12
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Rakosi posted:Isn't that what independents are for? I'd hope most people support the 'I love Hitler' local candidates less than the mainstream candidates. Pissflaps posted:I have to admit this STEM thing baffles me: why do people have a problem with people who study these sorts of degrees? If you are rigorously taught to obey a series of intricate physical laws and doing otherwise will invite ruin without also having a reasonable indepth knowledge of how society doesn't function according to such neat rules you can produce a collection of manipulative conservative authoritarians misapplying their knowledge.
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Feb 4, 2017 16:23
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Pissflaps posted:You could vote for a candidate from a different party? And so can you, but since you continue to moan about the direction Labour are taking I'm sure you realise what a disingenuous argument that is. The ideological bent of the two major parties matters massively in our political system. Not to mention that if you support MPs picking leaders for Labour and the Tories, I'm sure you support it for other parties to. The only thing that brings is complete domination of the system by the elites.
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Feb 4, 2017 16:25
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Extreme0 posted:I could believe this. It's only a credible report if it refers to her as "Comrade Abbott".
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Feb 4, 2017 16:47
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Dabir posted:What if no party reflects your views? Find people in your community who share your views and form a political party.
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Feb 4, 2017 16:49
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blunt posted:Find people in your community who share your views and form a political party. Also anti-monopoly regulations are unnecessary because the free market will inevitably produce a plucky independent business to topple the overly-bureucratic megacorps.
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Feb 4, 2017 16:52
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namesake posted:I'd hope most people support the 'I love Hitler' local candidates less than the mainstream candidates. namesake posted:If you are rigorously taught to obey a series of intricate physical laws and doing otherwise will invite ruin without also having a reasonable indepth knowledge of how society doesn't function according to such neat rules you can produce a collection of manipulative conservative authoritarians misapplying their knowledge. Engineers are overrepresented among terrorists though.
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Feb 4, 2017 18:05
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Guavanaut posted:Engineers are overrepresented among terrorists though. e: This probably sounded too much like I wasn't condemning it. But basically I was saying that terrorists aren't necessarily fascists or even right-wing, even if they are super lovely terrible people. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 18:14
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I didn't read it as normalizing terrorism, it's hard to put terrorism into the political spectrum. Anti-government terrorism by definition has a libertarian streak, but uMkhonto we Sizwe and Britain First (or whoever gave Mair that gun) attacked their own governments for vastly different reasons. And I'd guess most of them aren't economically right wing, if your ideology was just 'more money for me, gently caress you' you'd rob banks instead. The only exceptions would be CIA backed contras. I'd guess the real left/right split in terrorist groups is whether they're reinforcing the status quo through terror (KKK/AWB) or opposing it (MK/PKK), but then like you said there are the theocratic terror groups on top of that which are hard to categorize. I'm not sure which ones all the engineers are joining, they weren't allowed at careers day  but I think the reports mentioned Marxist and Islamist rather than Neo-Nazi.
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Feb 4, 2017 18:38
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lol https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/04/capita-staff-paid-by-criminals-to-fit-electronic-tags-loosely quote:Scotland Yard is investigating claims that workers with the outsourcing firm Capita were paid by convicts to deliberately fit electronic ankle tags loosely, allowing them to slip the devices off when they wanted to go out.
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Feb 4, 2017 18:54
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Pochoclo posted:I'm not really seeing this right-wing tilt. I've been in the software development field for more than a decade and like 80% of my coworkers have always been either center or slightly left-wing. Yeah, me either. It does happen to an extent in the US, usually just-world libertarian types rather than actual fash, but it's not something I've seen much over here. The worst I've seen is 'girls couldn't possibly learn to code' type misogny from young male (dateless) nerds. Definitely no-one in love with Thatcher.
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Feb 4, 2017 19:24
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I'd say that I like Labour's current leadership election system, but thinking retroactively the ban on the very newest members voting was the best idea. Ideally only people who have been members more than 6 months should get a vote, and there shouldn't be any kind of pay to vote system.
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Feb 4, 2017 19:28
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jabby posted:And so can you, but since you continue to moan about the direction Labour are taking I'm sure you realise what a disingenuous argument that is. It's not disingenuous at all. I understand perfectly that Labour is going to lose many votes - potentially mine included - as a consequence of the path it has gone down.
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Feb 4, 2017 19:37
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Pissflaps posted:It's not disingenuous at all. I understand perfectly that Labour is going to lose many votes - potentially mine included - as a consequence of the path it has gone down. As though you vote
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Feb 4, 2017 20:06
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Namtab posted:As though you vote Why wouldn't I vote this doesn't make sense.
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Feb 4, 2017 20:08
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Pissflaps posted:It's not disingenuous at all. I understand perfectly that Labour is going to lose many votes - potentially mine included - as a consequence of the path it has gone down. And yet rather than simply vote for another party, you complain that Labour specifically are not catering to you any more. But when someone else complains that your ideas for Labour wouldn't represent them, you say 'just vote for someone else'. It's disingenuous because having Labour represent your views is clearly important to you, but you suggest it shouldn't matter to anybody else because other parties exist.
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Feb 4, 2017 20:11
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Pochoclo posted:I'm not really seeing this right-wing tilt. I've been in the software development field for more than a decade and like 80% of my coworkers have always been either center or slightly left-wing. The libertarian types tend to gently caress off to the USA because they get paid more there and society agrees more with their fygm mindset.
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Feb 4, 2017 20:12
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jabby posted:And yet rather than simply vote for another party, you complain that Labour specifically are not catering to you any more. But when someone else complains that your ideas for Labour wouldn't represent them, you say 'just vote for someone else'. You're putting words into my mouth. I'm not saying it shouldn't matter to them. I'm saying they have that option - as do I, as you have identified. I've never shied away from acknowledging that Labour can't take my vote for granted.
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Feb 4, 2017 20:15
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Pissflaps posted:You're putting words into my mouth. I'm not saying it shouldn't matter to them. I'm saying they have that option - as do I, as you have identified. Actually you're specifically saying they shouldn't have that option, because total control of the party and it's direction should be given to MPs. I can safely assume the reason for this is that the views of Labour MPs line up better with yours than with the majority of the grassroots. So you don't want representation to be given democratically, you want it kept for the elites because their views are closer to yours.
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Feb 4, 2017 20:21
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I think there's some confusion here. I'm saying that any voter has the option of voting for a party or not at a constituency level. I'm not talking about leadership elections. Also 'grassroots' is such an overused, bullshit term.
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Feb 4, 2017 20:26
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Pissflaps posted:I think there's some confusion here. I'm saying that any voter has the option of voting for a party or not at a constituency level. I'm not talking about leadership elections. Then you're moving the goalposts. I'm specifically calling you a hypocrite for complaining that the leadership doesn't represent you while trying to shut down the same argument from others with 'just vote for someone else'.
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Feb 4, 2017 20:30
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I'm not moving the goalposts you just ignored where they were in the first place. It's realły loving simple: if a political party doesn't represent your views then you don't have to vote for it. I can complain about whatever the gently caress I like. As can you.
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Feb 4, 2017 20:32
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Pissflaps posted:Why wouldn't I vote this doesn't make sense. I don't believe you
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Feb 4, 2017 21:00
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This is all about strategic voting. Sure, floppy-dick Labour doesn't represent my political views at all: to me, they just give up too easy, and some of their views are too centrist, but then again I'm left of Marx. But really, if I don't vote for them, I'm helping full on super-hard Brexit "make the UK a tax haven with no workers rights" Tories, and I really don't want that. The problem is that they seem to take people still voting for them as an encouragement for their latest right-wing leanings and so you see Labour MPs catering to that demographic. "Hey, it seems to be working!" no, gently caress you, go back to your party's essence you idiot. Not that it matters - at this rate, they'll take away any voting rights I have as a EU citizen, and probably deport me in two years if I don't leave first. Pochoclo fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 21:17
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Namtab posted:I don't believe you Why not ?
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Feb 4, 2017 21:34
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Pissflaps posted:Why not ? You seem more like a complainer than a voter
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Feb 4, 2017 21:57
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