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Regardless of my personal situation, if people are willing to discuss topics with you in good faith, it is worth trying to change their mind. In my situation I've already changed his mind on some things already, which is why I think it can happen again. I will be looking into the resources all of you mentioned and continue to give that a shot. His primary source is Drudge and whatever gets linked there 
Xibanya fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Feb 3, 2017 |
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Feb 3, 2017 18:26
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sweart gliwere posted:The trouble with this part is (assuming he's overall a smart guy), if he actually believes that story and other poo poo like it (instead of just being moronically republicanly skeptical of the truth), it's already on the verge of "Sweetie, you probably need to look into therapy and/or medication to help you view reality as it is" Very possibly, he doesn't actually believe that, it's a very distant idea that never actually concerns him on the day-to-day level, but it's a political totem, a fundamental part of his social identity, and so he's basically obligated to claim he believes it. If Fox News said the sky was green and grass was blue you would find some people onboard with that through mental gymnastics.
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Feb 3, 2017 18:38
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ZDar Fan posted:Sorry to be that guy, but does anyone have that chart on motivations for outlawing abortion handy? I swear I'll save it this time. Trade you for the hitler one
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Feb 3, 2017 18:46
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DrNutt posted:Oh myyyyy god just loving sever and stop pining for a terrible person. You are not going to fix someone who thinks PP sells baby parts. Like holy poo poo there are far better people out there good lord. People don't always get to choose who they fall for. Maybe the dude's just in need of the therapy and medication the OP mentioned. I've seen people become night and day better than they were without it. Xibanya posted:Regardless of my personal situation, if people are willing to discuss topics with you in good faith, it is worth trying to change their mind. Hope it works out. Saving even one person from themselves is worth the work. I say this as the saved.
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Feb 3, 2017 18:49
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Talmonis posted:People don't always get to choose who they fall for. Maybe the dude's just in need of the therapy and medication the OP mentioned. I've seen people become night and day better than they were without it. There are literally billions of people on Earth. I've "loved" or "fallen for" several. Some of them were even people with repugnant opinions about Planned Parenthood and abortion, but that didn't last long, for obvious reasons. There is no reason for anyone to waste their time on a loving moron who thinks Drudge is a valid news source.
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Feb 3, 2017 18:55
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Talmonis posted:Hope it works out. Saving even one person from themselves is worth the work. I say this as the saved. Thank you. As it happens he's been in CBT and on SSRIs for two months and there have been slow but noticeable improvements in a variety of areas. A lot of his political views come from a place of anger or fear. I hope as he feels less anger and fear he'll be more amenable to other views. You know, a lot of conservatives probably have untreated depression. Good thing our country has a great attitude toward mental health and provides appropriate care for the most vulnerable in our society! 
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Feb 3, 2017 18:56
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Nevvy Z posted:Trade you for the hitler one Thanks! Is this the Hitler thing you're looking for? 
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Feb 3, 2017 18:59
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I just want to say that Drudge is really good at what he does. So many news websites are horrible and obnoxious to look at, spamming you with ads and pop-ups begging you to SUBSCRIBE RIGHT NOW, clickbait bullshit, and auto-playing videos you can't shut off. Drudge's page is simple, loads instantaneously, and you understand his narrative instantly as well. We live in the age of too much information. There is information overload everywhere you go. If you just want to look at the news for 20 seconds and move on with your day without sifting through a bunch of crap, Drudge is there for you, with his easy to digest links and simple, sensationalist headlines and pictures from all over the place, all with a convenient right wing filter. He gives the people what they want and I can see why he gets so many billions of clicks, and why he pretty much sets the stage for the whole right wing media universe throughout the day. The left just isn't as good at propaganda and it's 
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Feb 3, 2017 19:42
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Vox is the closest I can think of in clean presentation but it lacks the advantage of letting people say "I get my news from many sources!"
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Feb 3, 2017 19:51
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Pirate Radar posted:Very possibly, he doesn't actually believe that, it's a very distant idea that never actually concerns him on the day-to-day level, but it's a political totem, a fundamental part of his social identity, and so he's basically obligated to claim he believes it. If Fox News said the sky was green and grass was blue you would find some people onboard with that through mental gymnastics. Yeah, that's what we've got to hope but shouldn't expect. Like when someone talked about fast food jobs being for kids, don't deserve good pay, etc. Then I'd point out that in our reality, the median employee age in that field is 28. So should the majority of those workers immediately quit or strike? Then they stop talking about it, at least with you. And hopefully think about why they were living in an alternate reality, at some point.
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Feb 3, 2017 19:57
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The other obvious flaw in the "it's a kids job" bs is that if it were true then there wouldn't be anyone there during weekday lunch hours. It's like they want a large %(aka all the non whites) out of school.
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Feb 3, 2017 20:04
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^^^ gdisweart gliwere posted:Yeah, that's what we've got to hope but shouldn't expect. god i woul dlove it if fast food jobs were only for teens because then every fast food restaurant in america would only be open from 3-9 on weekdays and with limited weekend hours
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Feb 3, 2017 20:05
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Xibanya posted:In my situation I've already changed his mind on some things already, which is why I think it can happen again. I will be looking into the resources all of you mentioned and continue to give that a shot. His primary source is Drudge and whatever gets linked there That's probably the next thing you should change his mind on.
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Feb 3, 2017 21:27
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Yeah it's a dumb Republican meme that should be defeated by ever having thought about it, but they hear it from trusted sources and don't compare the sentiment against simple reality observed by anyone visiting a fast food venue. Though I love the idea of McDonald's staff in bumfuck Wyoming somehow being one middle aged boss with 15 highschool and university students who live with both of their parents in a stable home and don't "need" the money, in the Republican mindset. Sure is a lot of telecommuter students in this town, and they look rough as hell for being 19 
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Feb 3, 2017 21:39
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sweart gliwere posted:Yeah it's a dumb Republican meme that should be defeated by ever having thought about it, but they hear it from trusted sources and don't compare the sentiment against simple reality observed by anyone visiting a fast food venue. oh there's no dissonance there, it's an essential part of dismissing foodservice workers as less than human, which is important if you're the kind of person who gets off on treating foodservice/retail/cashier employees like dirt i worked in restaurants for a decade, roughly 20% of the customers you run in to will treat you like garbage for reasons ranging from trying to run a scam and get discounts to leaning on the idea that employment=social status and pissing downwards after a hard day of getting pissed on to just being awful human waste
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Feb 3, 2017 21:45
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Zipperelli. posted:I still can't wrap my mind around why people, who aren't affected in the least by "a thing," hate said thing so much. ie: Abortion. Coming from a staunchly Catholic pro-life family, the best answer I can give is that they truly believe in the personhood of the fertilized egg. To them, all those abortions literally represent a holocaust of unborn children. I didn't say it wasn't crazy, but keeping that in mind does provide a little bit of insight.
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Feb 3, 2017 21:52
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xergm posted:Coming from a staunchly Catholic pro-life family, the best answer I can give is that they truly believe in the personhood of the fertilized egg. To them, all those abortions literally represent a holocaust of unborn children. Ah yes which is why you always see Catholics picketing outside of IVF clinics.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:37
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Well that is an entirely different kettle of fish. Evangelicals use the conception begins at birth thing because it means that by pure virtue of their religion and activism they are the only ones standing up to killing babies en masse: probably the most horrible crime an unimaginative soul with little care for others and a massive boner for the concept of innocence can imagine. So when the rapture comes any day now (as a lot of the crazier ones actually believe), then bam: they are the true good and faithful Christians, heaven is theirs (and hell, maybe only theirs) and they can carry on their lives believing themselves the most righteous in the land, and even if the rapture doesn't pop up in five years, they have a responsibility to get into government and stopping this atrocity.Evangelicals vote, so even non-evangelicals start to adopt these positions in deep red states and federal seats from deep red states, and as this becomes more public knowledge people are more likely to believe it and support it, making America truly a land of the godly. USA! USA! USA! See kids, democracy, activism and believing in the right thing does work!  
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Feb 4, 2017 02:06
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The comments are to be expected.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:27
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xergm posted:Coming from a staunchly Catholic pro-life family, the best answer I can give is that they truly believe in the personhood of the fertilized egg. To them, all those abortions literally represent a holocaust of unborn children. Hey, I've been confused for most of my life especially about Catholics' feelings on creating quality of life versus creating quantity of life. Do the members of your family believe that a potential child is the same as a potential child - for example, does a fertile woman have an obligation to be bearing children? If so, is there a number of her eggs that deserve to become humans, or is there a limit? Is it better to force 20 kids into the world and not care for them, or is it better to have 2 children and commit your resources to them? I've asked this question of a few other Catholics and mostly gotten an avoidance. For obvious reasons I tend not to push these questions or state them bluntly with dogmatic Catholic, and other anti-abortion, relatives and friends.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:30
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Got a guy I know to admit he was a white supremacist. I thought that would get him to the point to question his beliefs. He doubled down instead. Got really tired, told him I can't associate with him if he's a white supremacist. Don't know what else to do. That has been my foray into attempting to help somebody see the light.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:46
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Literally Esoteric posted:Hey, I've been confused for most of my life especially about Catholics' feelings on creating quality of life versus creating quantity of life. Catholic dogma is that you're supposed to let God decide when children are born, not interfere via abortions or birth control. And of course all those children should be taken care of, the Catholic Church is big on providing foster care and adoption services, for what it's worth. I think you would see more IVF protests if the details were more broadly known to more people, at least from Catholics. It is banned by the church.
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Feb 4, 2017 03:07
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N. Senada posted:Got a guy I know to admit he was a white supremacist. I thought that would get him to the point to question his beliefs. He doubled down instead. Got really tired, told him I can't associate with him if he's a white supremacist. Don't know what else to do. That has been my foray into attempting to help somebody see the light. Well, there you go. Sometimes people are reachable, but what you find when you reach out isn't what you want.
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Feb 4, 2017 03:17
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N. Senada posted:That has been my foray into attempting to help somebody see the light. Just a reminder that all missionaries are evil.
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Feb 4, 2017 03:55
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N. Senada posted:Got a guy I know to admit he was a white supremacist. I thought that would get him to the point to question his beliefs. He doubled down instead. Got really tired, told him I can't associate with him if he's a white supremacist. Don't know what else to do. That has been my foray into attempting to help somebody see the light. At least you got it out in the open and he can't deny it. TildeATH posted:Just a reminder that all missionaries are evil. Don't cut yourself on that edge, buddy.
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Feb 4, 2017 06:22
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I've noticed conservative pundits doing that thing they do where they flip the argument around on the left and steal the narrative, all the while being the guilty parties in the thing they're accusing others of doing. They've done it before with things like "low information voters", "tax and spend", etc. and now they seem to have co-opted the term "fake news". Even though the "fake news" stories were about right wing sources making poo poo up, they're applying it to CNN, etc.
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Feb 4, 2017 17:28
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Infant mortality being much much worse in our past is certainly a factor in the genesis of this belief too. poo poo, my immigrant grandmother came from a farm- with 11 siblings. Modern medicine had helped curb the deaths but I guess the habit stuck.
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Feb 4, 2017 17:43
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BiggerBoat posted:I've noticed conservative pundits doing that thing they do where they flip the argument around on the left and steal the narrative, all the while being the guilty parties in the thing they're accusing others of doing. They've done it before with things like "low information voters", "tax and spend", etc. and now they seem to have co-opted the term "fake news". At this point to them "fake news" is anything that makes the right look bad, even if it's 100% the truth.
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Feb 4, 2017 18:37
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I just don't get how these people, who spend all their time crying about tyranny and censorship and propaganda think that most domestic news agencies and nearly all foreign ones are somehow in a conspiracy to advance the Soros agenda or something but plucky little Brietbart knows the truth. Oh wait I do, it's cognitive dissonance  btw I've heard my friend complaining about how tyrannical the new deal and the progressives of FDR's day were multiple times of late. I don't give these sites clicks but whatever he's randomly complaining about is probably the topic du jour. I thought "progressive" as a term showed up with Howard Dean?  have we always been at war with progressives?
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Feb 4, 2017 18:45
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Never forget 20th century American conservatism has been one long war against FDR and the New Deal. And they got the Democratic party to join in on their side in the late 80s/early 90s. And well, the wars over they won with Paul Ryan about to erase the last of it
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Feb 4, 2017 20:58
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Xibanya posted:I just don't get how these people, who spend all their time crying about tyranny and censorship and propaganda think that most domestic news agencies and nearly all foreign ones are somehow in a conspiracy to advance the Soros agenda or something but plucky little Brietbart knows the truth. Oh wait I do, it's cognitive dissonance That's not what cognitive dissonance means. Those aren't even dissonant beliefs
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Feb 4, 2017 21:05
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ToxicSlurpee posted:At this point to them "fake news" is anything that makes the right look bad, even if it's 100% the truth. I think it's as simple as "fake news" is "anything that's not on FOX, talk radio, Drudge or Breitbart". I worded my post poorly but what I was trying to convey is how "fake news" has become something of a buzzword and the right seems to have co-opted the term as a means towards legitimizing their media outlets as "no worse than CNN or HuffPo". They do this a lot. "Cronyism", for instance, became a criticism leveled at Obama (and so far ignored under Trump) after W and Cheney turned it into a loving art form. It's the Rovian thing where you accuse your political opponents/enemies of doing the exact loving thing that you are doing, thus seizing the issue and framing the narrative. Leftists and Democrats could learn a thing or two about it; branding and repetition in the age of the 10 second attention span. As an aside, apparently there's a problem with the Tweeter in Chief using an outdated, unsecure Android phone to "communicate" with the public. As it gains traction, I'm counting down to the FB memes about insecure servers and emails. Just another example of RW hypocrisy and short memories which have reached an utterly astonishing level in the last 2 or 3 weeks. I saw Pence saying that Gorsuch deserves an immediate up or down vote and that Democrats should cut the poo poo with their dirty tricks and filibusters. CNN ran it and never once Merrick Garland. The short attention spans and the double standard at work here are positively staggering. poo poo, Rush and Sean are whining every day about Democratic obstructionism. How can they say these things with a straight face?
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Feb 4, 2017 21:56
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BiggerBoat posted:How can they say these things with a straight face? They get paid, it works, and they really do want things to turn out the way they have. They get more power and their 'lessers' get less.
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Feb 5, 2017 01:24
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BiggerBoat posted:As an aside, apparently there's a problem with the Tweeter in Chief using an outdated, unsecure Android phone to "communicate" with the public. As it gains traction, I'm counting down to the FB memes about insecure servers and emails. Also apparently everyone on Trump's staff is using private email servers. Number of Trump supporters who have spoken out about this after saying Hillary should be in jail for doing it: zero.
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Feb 5, 2017 02:11
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Twelve by Pies posted:Also apparently everyone on Trump's staff is using private email servers. They like private email servers that don't get hacked.
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Feb 5, 2017 02:34
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Gutfeld deserves to rot in the lowest pit of Hell as do all of RWM, the Teapublican party, and the Trump administration really.
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Feb 5, 2017 04:19
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the ability of the right wing to co-opt terms and get mad at things they were doing a week ago is pretty simple, really. they are hypocrites, with highly compartmentalized thinking, and do not do self reflection. they believe in what they want to. there's nothing complex about it, really. e: "The Authoritarians" has a nice coverage of that sort of thing, and it's been mentioned before I think. Authoritarians don't really "do" logic or reason and they're pretty much totally immune to it.
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Feb 5, 2017 04:45
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KomradeX posted:And they got the Democratic party to join in on their side in the late 80s/early 90s. 70s. McGovern was the first, actually.
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Feb 5, 2017 06:03
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Jurgan posted:Don't cut yourself on that edge, buddy. He's not exactly wrong though. They are historical monsters. Their current activities in Africa and SE Asia continue this trend. Just because they seem nice and smiley and are dressed in nice crisp white button ups does not mean they are good people.
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Feb 5, 2017 06:26
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RasperFat posted:He's not exactly wrong though. They are historical monsters. Their current activities in Africa and SE Asia continue this trend. Well, in his defense, I was referring to the weird creepy language that goes on in this thread about "converting" Trumpets, which is just as missionary as the traditionally creepy missionaries.
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Feb 5, 2017 06:42
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