|
EagerSleeper posted:What episode of the Umineko Anime is that gif from? 21 Anime-Rosa is too strong to care about just clawing at some stitches with her fingernails 
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 19:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 00:02 |
|
|
No, see, this doesn't really work, because Rosa still looks angry. And the very worst part of this scene, which is shown in the video, is the absolute serenity Rosa has on her face as she smashes her daughter's only friends. As if this is completely necessary and normal, and not an action taken in the acts of anger and vindication. And the thing is, all of this is less than I thought Rosa would do (what I thought she'd do is take a knife or baseball bat to Maria's entire room, diary included) but the manner in which it is done is just the most awful, soul destroying thing in the world from a child's perspective; the entire screen bleeds with betrayal. And there's the magic word again: betrayal. (uragiri), the death/opposite of duty, the beating heart of this series. Kinzo's past betrayal of the happiness he was cheated of by his family and wasted his life trying to get back, Shannon's betrayal by Beatrice out of jealousy for the happiness she found with George; Kanon's betrayal of his ambitions by his situation and Beatrice's mocking promises, and his own betrayal of Jessica's feelings due to the same; Krauss' betrayal of the siblings by passing down his father's abuse; the betrayal of Eva by her own gender to pursue her ambitions, and her own betrayal of her siblings and their children when her family dies; Rudolph's betrayal of Asumu by marrying Kyrie soon after, perceived or real, that Battler hasn't dealt with and can't forgive; Kyrie's implied betrayal of leaving her possibly Yakuza family, and her secret seething of Rudolph choosing Asumu first; Rosa's betrayal by Maria's unnamed father, and her own betrayal of Maria by tearing up the toy Rosa herself made and gave to her. And then you have Ange, who is a creature of betrayal, almost entirely shaped by that concept: the betrayal of her family by never coming home, the betrayal of Eva by ruining her life because Ange lived and George and Hideyoshi did not, the perceived betrayal of the Stakes for not protecting her from abuse and fulfilling her vengeance, and her own betrayal of her friends by rejecting daydreams and hope... it has made a young, sad girl into a cold seeker of the truth, one that academically knows the value of objectivity and knows that she is not objective, but who is unable to trust anyone- not her allies, nor her friends, and thanks to Lambda, not even herself. We hypothesized that Beatrice was somehow informed by betrayal, but she really doesn't have to be, because this entire story is formed by betrayal: how one is betrayed, and how one betrayed others in turn. Hell, the whole mystery, the idea Battler resists and grapples with, is figuring out which of those he thought he knew was the one who committed the last betrayal. A task Battler in particular is suited for, because he is a simple character: he, like his father (and like every male character in the drat story, I note) is a simple character with a single core concept and a belief that comes from that- he only has one face he presents to the world, where every female character has at least two. Natsuhi is the proper and demure housewife, until her husband dies and she is revealed to have steel grip and a will of iron to confront a killer. Rosa is portrayed as gentle and diffident, a shrinking violet around her siblings, but the moment she's in charge, reveals herself as an abusive and vindictive tyrant. Eva projects an assertive and ambitious air to achieve her dreams of becoming head, but in her private moments only really wants to make her husband and son happy. Kyrie has a cool and calmly intellectual mask for her lifelong jealous grudge with her rival in love. Jessica has an alter-ego in school that she cultivates to get away from her life at the island; the shy and agreeable Shannon is a lot more assertive and confrontational than anyone guesses (and according to Lycaeon, might be the killer?); Kuwabara the mackerel granny might be a secret witch and the former Beatrice; and Maria harbors both her happy dream of peace and her dark dream of vengeance for Sakutaro. Berne hides a champion of hope behind her stoicism and perpetual boredom, Lambda's shallow vapidity hides a cruel, capricious monster, and Beatrice... seems to have even more faces every chapter (she has the most sprites dedicated to her in this novel, doesn't she?) Even the Stakes, previously thought to be one note joke characters, were revealed to be more complicated than anyone imagined just recently. Meanwhile, the only male to depart very much from where he began is Battler; his experiences in dealing with a liar are teaching him how to lie in turn. Will the answer episode reveal more sides to the other men, I wonder? resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Feb 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 20:12
|
|
|
Was the author of the game a social worker in the eighties? (I assume so because that's where all his stories take place) How many Rosa types did he see? 
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 20:27
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:(she has the most sprites dedicated to her in this novel, doesn't she?) If you count every combination of alternate face, alternate gesture, alternate props, and alternate costumes, Beatrice's sprite count numbers close to a thousand.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 20:28
|
|
|
Violet_Sky posted:Was the author of the game a social worker in the eighties? (I assume so because that's where all his stories take place) How many Rosa types did he see? Not in 1986 in any case. He would have been 13. edit: Judging from his biography it would have had to have been in the mid 90s. oath2order fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Feb 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 20:30
|
|
|
See, I wasn't surprised this happened in the slightest. Because Sakurato kept triggering so many Death Flags.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 20:47
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:No, see, this doesn't really work, because Rosa still looks angry. And the very worst part of this scene, which is shown in the video, is the absolute serenity Rosa has on her face as she smashes her daughter's only friends. As if this is completely necessary and normal, and not an action taken in the acts of anger and vindication. People hate the anime for good reasons. There's not a single thing it did better than the VN and some things it did fatally wrong. I might as well bring this topic up here. As horrible as Rosa is acting here, I still agree with what CottonWolf and Robindaybird were talking about sympathizing with her circumstances. She was dumped and left with a debt and a child she can't handle, she apparently accidentally killed a woman and repressed the memory, and her siblings abused her in a fashion probably not too far off from what she's doing now. When she reacted to the welfare officer telling her not to hurt Maria with asking who's taking responsibility for her wounds, I'm sure she wasn't just talking about being ashamed of Maria. Nobody ever stood up for her sake.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 20:50
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:If you count every combination of alternate face, alternate gesture, alternate props, and alternate costumes, Beatrice's sprite count numbers close to a thousand. The Endless Witch who has held a thousand sprites.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 20:50
|
|
|
SardonicTyrant posted:See, I wasn't surprised this happened in the slightest. I think nobody was surprised by his death. We were all surprised by Rosa's reaction. Violet_Sky fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Feb 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 20:52
|
|
|
Yeah, I was expecting him to die, I wasn't expecting Rosa to rip him apart with her bare hands and to destroy Maria's other toys with complete serenity while a social worker was watching, because I didn't expect her to do something that would get her custody taken away without a lot of bribery/lawyers. It's the details of the matter that are shocking, not the broad strokes. Poor Maria.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 21:43
|
|
|
gently caress I honestly feel like these flashbacks would belong in the Answers Arc I keep hearing about. The writing here isn't bad, but it is all was shoved into the back-burner that is this last chapter. Although I at least appreciate giving flashbacks for all 4 cousins lives before coming to the murder island. Wait, Battler hasn't gotten a flash back has he? Oh no.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
^^^ We haven't really gotten a flashback with George, either. There was the date, but that was more Shannon's flashback than his; we still don't really know the way George is by himself, or with his parents.tiistai posted:I might as well bring this topic up here. As horrible as Rosa is acting here, I still agree with what CottonWolf and Robindaybird were talking about sympathizing with her circumstances. She was dumped and left with a debt and a child she can't handle, she apparently accidentally killed a woman and repressed the memory, and her siblings abused her in a fashion probably not too far off from what she's doing now. When she reacted to the welfare officer telling her not to hurt Maria with asking who's taking responsibility for her wounds, I'm sure she wasn't just talking about being ashamed of Maria. Nobody ever stood up for her sake. Well, yeah... remember I made the whole effort post about how impressed I was at the portrayal of abuse and abusers, and it's only gotten more impressive at just how good Ryukishi is at writing a believable, dysfunctional family. This episode was awful, but he's too good a writer to frontload this at the beginning, because using this as Rosa's establishing character moment absent her circumstances just makes her look like the most irredeemable monster imaginable. But having known the future and the other more positive reactions Rosa and Maria are portrayed as having, this moment becomes a particularly low point on the widening gyre of their relationship, and will be followed in Rosa's case by severe depression, a reconciliation, and a period of normalcy before the next (somewhat worse) incident occurs. And in Maria's case, this incident is a puzzle piece being inserted, joining the dichotomy of Maria as she normally is and the creepy, vengeful, confrontational personality she created by disassociation from her rage at her situation and her sorrow at her friend being lost. Neither of these characters is portrayed as being completely unsympathetic or unforgivable in their actions, but they are both portrayed as being broken in such a fundamental manner that they can't help but break others as they are- of people who mean well but snap under pressure, as if their own pain, grief and suffering just boils out onto the nearest people like a geyser . The manga drawn by Kei Natsumi, as well as the original sprites by Ryukishi, represent these moments with the eyes- as portraying them as pitch-black and without an iris, as if the pupil swallowed it. As if the abuse inflicted on them, and that they inflict on others, is destroying their very individuality and identity... which, you know, it loving does. resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Feb 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 22:10
|
|
|
I want to know why the social worker was so...restrained. It was almost as if they weren't there at all. We talk about how magic is worthless compared to human action but it doesn't seem like there's any human action that's truly doing something to help Maria, both in her home and school environment.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 22:46
|
|
|
Lycaeon posted:I want to know why the social worker was so...restrained. It was almost as if they weren't there at all. We talk about how magic is worthless compared to human action but it doesn't seem like there's any human action that's truly doing something to help Maria, both in her home and school environment. I think the answer is mid-80s Japan.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 23:00
|
|
|
It's hard to restrain someone when you were tragically born without a talking sprite.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 23:01
|
|
|
The poor lady might not have been expecting Rosa to fly into a rage so suddenly: for all she knew she was going to investigate a case of neglect, it doesn't seem like Rosa beats Maria in front of anyone but family. She did try to hold Rosa in place a few times, and if Rosa had started beating Maria senseless right there I hope she would have done more.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 23:31
|
|
|
The social worker is actually Rosa's imaginary friend. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 23:32
|
|
|
Sadly, the poor social worker was born without a body and could only watch powerlessly.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 23:33
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:It's hard to restrain someone when you were tragically born without a talking sprite. Hidingo Kojimba posted:The social worker is actually Rosa's imaginary friend. oath2order posted:Sadly, the poor social worker was born without a body and could only watch powerlessly. Goddamnit you guys.  Violet_Sky posted:I think the answer is mid-80s Japan. Mercury Hat posted:The poor lady might not have been expecting Rosa to fly into a rage so suddenly: for all she knew she was going to investigate a case of neglect, it doesn't seem like Rosa beats Maria in front of anyone but family. I'm guessing it's some sort of stigma much like mental illness was considered a stigma during this time? An institutional failure...still, the worst part is even if something was done Maria may not have fared better in Japan's version of state child care...
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 23:56
|
|
|
Abuse within the household (whether parent to child or between spouses) has long been a thing that Japanese society just... doesn't talk about. It's something that's kept in the family, outsiders don't talk about it because it's the family's business, not something to be butted in on. It's seen as "shameful" to the family and the victim to have abusers outed and publicly called out which is why it's generally kept hush-hush. Even as late as the early 2010s, it was super taboo to actually talk about child abuse.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:33
|
|
|
Lycaeon posted:I'm guessing it's some sort of stigma much like mental illness was considered a stigma during this time? An institutional failure...still, the worst part is even if something was done Maria may not have fared better in Japan's version of state child care... Japan's version of "state child care" is either orphanages or being essentially forced on the family of a satellite relative, if memory serves. Maria would be just as likely to have been foisted onto the Sumadera clan. That would have ended well.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 01:13
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:And there's the magic word again: betrayal. — (uragiri), the death/opposite of duty, the beating heart of this series. Kinzo's past betrayal of the happiness he was cheated of by his family and wasted his life trying to get back, Shannon's betrayal by Beatrice out of jealousy for the happiness she found with George; Kanon's betrayal of his ambitions by his situation and Beatrice's mocking promises, and his own betrayal of Jessica's feelings due to the same; Krauss' betrayal of the siblings by passing down his father's abuse; the betrayal of Eva by her own gender to pursue her ambitions, and her own betrayal of her siblings and their children when her family dies; Rudolph's betrayal of Asumu by marrying Kyrie soon after, perceived or real, that Battler hasn't dealt with and can't forgive; Kyrie's implied betrayal of leaving her possibly Yakuza family, and her secret seething of Rudolph choosing Asumu first; Rosa's betrayal by Maria's unnamed father, and her own betrayal of Maria by tearing up the toy Rosa herself made and gave to her. And then you have Ange, who is a creature of betrayal, almost entirely shaped by that concept: the betrayal of her family by never coming home, the betrayal of Eva by ruining her life because Ange lived and George and Hideyoshi did not, the perceived betrayal of the Stakes for not protecting her from abuse and fulfilling her vengeance, and her own betrayal of her friends by rejecting daydreams and hope... it has made a young, sad girl into a cold seeker of the truth, one that academically knows the value of objectivity and knows that she is not objective, but who is unable to trust anyone- not her allies, nor her friends, and thanks to Lambda, not even herself. We hypothesized that Beatrice was somehow informed by betrayal, but she really doesn't have to be, because this entire story is formed by betrayal: how one is betrayed, and how one betrayed others in turn. Hell, the whole mystery, the idea Battler resists and grapples with, is figuring out which of those he thought he knew was the one who committed the last betrayal. Yurigasaki posted:Abuse within the household (whether parent to child or between spouses) has long been a thing that Japanese society just... doesn't talk about. It's something that's kept in the family, outsiders don't talk about it because it's the family's business, not something to be butted in on. It's seen as "shameful" to the family and the victim to have abusers outed and publicly called out which is why it's generally kept hush-hush. Even as late as the early 2010s, it was super taboo to actually talk about child abuse. KataraniSword posted:Japan's version of "state child care" is either orphanages or being essentially forced on the family of a satellite relative, if memory serves. Maria would be just as likely to have been foisted onto the Sumadera clan. It's disheartening and cruel. I see in all of this a sense of apathy - people can't bring themselves to think for once about how their actions or lack of action are affecting everyone around them. They focus on abstract concepts like 'family' or 'duty' or simple selfishness, and in the process they forget that they're hurting actual, feeling, people with their own desires and dreams. Kinzo's personhood was thrown away for his 'family's' sake, but we only see him do the same to his own family. His obsession with his dead mistress and his cruelty to his children, all of that self-perpetuating spite and apathy...it's spreading and spreading and ruined what should've been a large, happy, family. Turned them into self-absorbed adults obsessed with 'wealth' and 'pride'... There's even elements of it in the youngest generation. I'm starting to realize George didn't understand Shannon at all. Either it was innocence or ignorance, or, at worst, he only saw her as a 'pretty wife' perfect for his 'future family'...either way he completely failed to see the pain and misery in the woman he was supposed to love and care for. He just didn't notice. And Jessica and Kanon...I don't blame her, as she was already under pressure from her parents, and Kanon pushed her away at almost every opportunity. Even Battler in his fight with Beatrice...he's supposed to be finding out what caused the murders and he's completely absorbed with nonsensical scenes of happiness between the cousins and refuses to consider the possibility that anyone could be the killer - but that's completely ignoring all the pain that's in everyone's past... Nobody cares. And it's heartbreaking...
Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 01:39
|
|
|
KataraniSword posted:Japan's version of "state child care" is either orphanages or being essentially forced on the family of a satellite relative, if memory serves. Maria would be just as likely to have been foisted onto the Sumadera clan. The Sumadera's are Kyrie's family. Presumably she'd be more likely to be foisted onto Krauss or Eva. That... would be interesting.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 02:31
|
|
|
It seems that this thread is feeling a bit down, so I thought I would help cheer everyone up. I'll admit, I'm not very good at solving these mysteries, but since we're waiting for the  to begin again, we could go over the some of the red truths we've learned so far. See, there's a lot of red truths that would apply to all of the episodes, but no one in the thread has been collecting them together. I figure I could put them together and we could go back and solve each episode a closed room at a time.Anyway, here we go: Beatrice stuff: When I speak the truth, I will use red. The very first red truth. From what we've seen, it also applies to Eva-Beatrice as well; She agreed to be Battler's opponent and agreed to the rules of the game. But....does it apply to furniture like Ronove and the Stakes? They also made a few Red statements, but they didn't promise Battler that they would use it to speak the truth. Unless I note otherwise, assume every statement is from Beatrice. There are no more than 18 humans on this Rokkenjima. The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria. The envelope I handed over to Maria and the one Rose Opened are the same (Battler was solving the First Twilight in ep2. Taken together, these two statements are...very interesting. Recall that Rosa met Beatrice in the past, and according to the following statements by Ronove, Beatrice did live on the island back then. A hidden mansion called Kuwadorian does exist in the forest of Rokkenjima. The pair [Kinzo and Beatrice] actually had a conversation like that in this place This is the world of 1967. In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human. Except that Beatrice was a young woman who died, whereas meta-Beatrice is a witch and immortal. She's definitely dead I think the way this works is that human Beatrice "counted" as being the same person as witch Beatrice. So perhaps there's a person who "counts" as Beatrice on the island at the time of the murders. What does it all mean? There are only 18 people on Rokkenjima. At the moment, it's possible Kinzo has been dead the whole time, which would mean that Beatrice could be the 18th person, the so-called Guest X. But, let's assume Kinzo is still alive. If one of the 18 people "counts" as Beatrice for these Red statements to be true, then there's no need for a 19th guest; Beatrice is somehow one of the 18. No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game.: Spoken by Eva-Beatrice at the end of the third game. If we assume this applies to every game, then the Beatrice in the second game counts as a human as well. I keep my promises: I wonder if this could be used somehow. Rooms and Doors: The chapel: Only one key to the chapel exist. It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key!! When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit!!: Said after the First Twilight in episode 2. Pretty straightforward. I don't think the chapel key is brought up again afterwards, which means it could be used by "Beatrice" to appear in the chapel later, but I could be wrong. Jessica's Room: There are absolutely no types of hidden doors. This door is the only way in or out. The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant. When locked, it does not permit any form of entry or exit. No trick could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key. There are no hidden doors in this room. There is no way to get in or out other than the door and the window. : Straightforward. It's possible the rooms the others were staying in did not obey one or more of these rules, but I think that would mean the killer would have to know how the doors worked for each of the bedrooms, no? Servant's Room: Entry or exit is impossible except for the single door and single window. "And those were both locked. The door and the window do not permit any kind of entry or exit when they are locked. It is impossible to unlock the door without a key to the servants' room or the master key. No method exists by which the door can be locked from the outside without using a key. Regarding the window, no method exists by which it could somehow be locked from the outside.": Again, straightforward. This is also where the keybox that holds the master keys is stored. Master Keys: There are only five master keys. Natsuhi's Room: There is no means of secret passage and no hidden place. Of all of the doors that exist on Rokkenjima, none has a crack through which a key can slip: Spoken by one of the Stakes(Mammon?). No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock.: This refers to the boiler room, the parlor, the guest room on the second floor, the third floor waiting room, the second floor VIP room, and the chapel Misc: You are incompetent! Umm...oh geez... ... *sigh* Look. I know you're doing your best to solve this mystery. And I'm sure you've also have other stuff to do. Work, family, and so on. But. We're over 70 pages into this thing. The Ushiromiyas have been killed three times already waiting for you to figure this all out. Even Beatrice is starting to pick on you. And what about the secret of the epitaph? Even Rosa managed to figure that out. I mean, drat. I know it's tough, but don't give up. Yes it's challenging, but I'm with you all the way. In fact, I'll say it in blue: I'm not giving up on you. You're gonna get up, brush yourself off, and solve all these murders before the thread is over. I believe in you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 02:38
|
|
|
SardonicTyrant posted:The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria. It isn't difficult to get the key out of Maria's keeping on this one, but I also noticed some more weaseling in your summary here: she never states in red that the door was actually locked. She just describes the conditions that apply when it is.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 03:09
|
|
|
I'm 25. I picked up my big stuffed fox and started hugging it while watching that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 03:22
|
|
|
Has anyone pointed out that the epitaph isn't actually being followed in the event that Kinzo has been dead all along?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 03:26
|
|
|
SardonicTyrant posted:Jessica's Room: Kanon killed Jessica and left the room. He "died" as Kanon and but his body persisted as an alter ego. I'm not really feeling the validity of my earlier guess about him, so I'll just persist with calling his alter ego "K." K then went on and killed Nanjo and Kumasawa, spooking Gohda and receiving cover from Genji and Shannon.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 04:00
|
|
|
curiousCat posted:Has anyone pointed out that the epitaph isn't actually being followed in the event that Kinzo has been dead all along?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 04:12
|
|
|
SardonicTyrant posted:
You'll all surrender to the witch and magic in the end.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 04:19
|
|
|
My pet theory is that Shannon is Beatrice, or more specifically, Beatrice was Shannon's imaginary friend which grew over time into an alternate persona, one capable and willing to murder everyone on the island. Tender Child Loins proposed that Shannon might also be Kanon, and that is an interesting idea, but after a reread it runs into a lot of problems. There's no reason for Kanon to be an alternate persona. He's his own person, with his own dreams and motivations that apart from becoming 'human' are completely unrelated to Shannon - these motivations lead him to oppose Beatrice every single step of the way during episodes 1 and 2. I think the reasons he goes along initially with Shannon/Beatrice's plans are because he cares about her too much to expose her, he hates the Ushiromiyas, and he wants to be free from servitude. Shannon likely learned about magic (the power of imagination) from Kumasawa/Virgilia, and used it like we've seen Ange and Maria do to make her life more tolerable and happy. Being a servant to the Ushiromiya family is a miserable existence as we've seen (The only worse position for someone to be in is be a member of the Ushiromiya family, but the servants do not have it easy), and Shannon is constantly disrespected (If not outright tormented) by the adult Ushiromiyas. She became adept at the art, and created multiple imaginary friends, among whom we've seen the stake sisters (Ange and Maria mentioned they used to be Beatrice's), and Beatrice, who she likely based off the legend of Beatrice the witch that was already present on the island. Shannon found comfort in her imaginary friends, and invested both her time and mental energy into creating them, to the point where they could follow her around and provide a constant source of companionship. She especially invested herself into Beatrice, confiding her frustrations and resentment about her situation into her, so that she wouldn't have to expose them aloud (Shannon the servant is completely unassuming and innocent; Beatrice the witch is not). This, however, had the effect of making Beatrice more complex and independent over time, as she would adopt the unvoiced thoughts and fears of her master into herself. Beatrice the imaginary friend slowly became Beatrice the witch, and split off more and more from Shannon as time went on. Mostly because Shannon didn't have need for her anymore. She made friends in Jessica and Kanon. And most importantly of all, she fell in love with George - this love became her entire world in place of imagination and magic. But this didn't mean Beatrice was gone...far from it; by this point she had invested so much of herself that Beatrice had become an alternate persona, made malicious and cruel by years of built up negative emotion, but asleep...for now. This brings us to some time before the present. Shannon is starting to have fears about her relationship with George, made manifest by her complete lack of confidence and self-esteem (Traits she ironically invested into Beatrice), and certainly not helped at all by evil Eva. She sees a future where she's alone again, completely, except this time without love - a pain that is quite unlike any other. It is pretty much unimaginable suffering (I have firsthand experience). And she doesn't know what to do. So Beatrice comes back. This time, as a completely manifest independent entity, made from all of Shannon's frustration and torment and loneliness. She offers Shannon the devil's bargain - let me take over the island, and I'll give you George (Ironically by giving her back some of the very independent personality that Shannon used to make Beatrice). Except by taking over the island, Beatrice means taking over Shannon - by breaking the spirit mirror Shannon is metaphorically sacrificing herself to Beatrice. I haven't worked out all the details after this, but assumedly Beatrice is quite upset and angry, and begins planning the destruction of the Ushiromiya family. As a being born of pure negative emotion, she would have no hesitation about it, and would likely not care about George or Maria either (Something I think this finally works around addressing). Beatrice likely solved the epitaph and found the gold, thus making it easier to bribe everyone involved to cooperate, including one of the Ushiromiya family members each episode. She would over the amount of time between then and the massacre slowly subvert the remaining servants into her elaborate murder pact, a pact so gruesome and awful (as we've seen) that it would satisfy her (Shannon's) innate hatred.
Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 04:34
|
|
|
I'd like to request the following repeated in red, because the story doesn't make this clear when characters other than Beatrice use it: Every person so far other than Beatrice, including Virgillia, Eva-Beatrice, Ronove, and the Stakes, has stated only the truth in red (so far).
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 04:45
|
|
|
All characters, past and future, never have and never will make a factually false statement using the red truth.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 04:46
|
|
|
curiousCat posted:Has anyone pointed out that the epitaph isn't actually being followed in the event that Kinzo has been dead all along? We haven't talked about it, but it was dubious in the second game and absolutely did not happen in the third. The fatal wounds do not match the prescribed patterns (the stakes are added later) and the order of the deaths has clearly been manipulated even if you discount Kinzo. This is not surprising, since it's not any kind of genuine magical ritual; it's a crazy riddle put together by an old madman couched in magical terms because that's his obsession, and it's not being followed by witches, which don't exist, but used as cover by a human murderer. ProfessorProf posted:All characters, past and future, never have and never will make a factually false statement using the red truth. It does make sense. A mystery is fundamentally a game played between you and the author, and you can't have a game without at least some shared rules. The red text provides us with those rules, since we've established that the narrative itself fundamentally doesn't and can contain outright fabrications in at least some cases. (In a more standard mystery, basically everything would be red text as long as you were willing to prefix it with "the POV character perceived that...".) oath2order posted:You'll all surrender to the witch and magic in the end. I am very much looking forward to disappointing you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 04:53
|
|
|
Thank you very much, ProfessorProf. Oh, something else I noticed at the end of the third game. This wasn't stated in red, but it was shown from Battler's perspective, so I feel it can be considered true: There is a window in the 2nd floor hallway that has been well oiled so that it can be opened without a sound. Also, the wind and rain from outside doesn't blow through. However, it doesn't appear to be able to be locked from the outside. Aside from the part where it can be opened without a sound, it's likely the rest of the statement is true in every game. SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 04:55
|
|
|
Maria didn't start saying Uuuu~ until Sakutarou "died", did she? No, it just seems like they were only when she was having emotional episodes before. Does that imply her emotional state is just wrecked constantly now? curiousCat fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 06:36
|
|
|
 Noticed this from the prologue. So... how bad is (Rudol)f?? Just kidding, except to say that Battler really didn't know his family.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 07:08
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:Noticed this from the prologue. So... how bad is (Rudol)f?? Just kidding, except to say that Battler really didn't know his family. Well, he did get two women pregnant at the same time and then picked one of them over the other just because her baby survived. He literally abandoned a woman who loved him because she had a miscarriage.  Edit: And then he married Kyrie immediately after his first wife died. It really says something when loving Krauss seems like the most reasonable sibling out of the four. curiousCat posted:Maria didn't start saying Uuuu~ until Sakutarou "died", did she?
Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 07:15
|
|
|
Wait, question: is this "totally not Japanese" like Rudolf's name isn't Japanese or like... not Japanese but Chinese or something?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 07:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 00:02 |
|
|
Leamonde posted:Wait, question: is this "totally not Japanese" like Rudolf's name isn't Japanese or like... not Japanese but Chinese or something?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 08:22
|
|
