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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:depends how vindictive the rest of the EU feels, I think I'll be in the entire eu's interest to negotiate an orderly brexit, however long that takes.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:03
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ElNarez posted:what's happening now is the direct result of Labour not having enough MPs to have an impact on policy, it's not immediately relevant, I'll admit, but it is the situation as it's been, and as it will be until the next election, so you're expecting Corbyn to stop article 50 with a power he does not have Yeah except that's just not going to happen. Remember when Corbyns big selling point was the £3 supporters? That he was popular with demographics that didn't traditionally support labour and this was going to sweep him to success at every election because instead of having to convince shy tories to vote, he'd have this huge swell of people that didn't normally vote so labour would no longer have to pretend to be tory lite to win? How do you think they voted in the referendum? How do you think they're going to feel about the leader of the labour party forcing his party to vote for something they, almost uniformly, thought was a terrible idea?
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Feb 9, 2017 01:04
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Pissflaps posted:I think I'll be in the entire eu's interest to negotiate an orderly brexit, however long that takes. Hopefully this is true. It's a big old game of international shifting-powers Kerplunk at the moment. I hope there are some steady hands around.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:13
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TheHoodedClaw posted:Hopefully this is true. It's a big old game of international shifting-powers Kerplunk at the moment. I hope there are some steady hands around. you know it won't be though. Didn't one Belgian region almost torpedo a trade deal with Canada?
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Feb 9, 2017 01:18
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I have also just resigned my labour membership.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:20
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ElNarez posted:what's happening now is the direct result of Labour not having enough MPs to have an impact on policy, it's not immediately relevant, I'll admit, but it is the situation as it's been, and as it will be until the next election, so you're expecting Corbyn to stop article 50 with a power he does not have I expect Corbyn to not act like someone who's loving useless. Only someone so loving stupid can put a third line whip on the party vote and expect the Tories to submit to putting amendments in. There was a chance of Tory Rebellion, there was a chance of actually putting the foot down at the last hurdle if the amendments weren't made. But because Corbyn loving decied it be a good idea to put a three line whip in voting towards leave. No one was going to risk it. You know what Corbyn accomplished. He made a Tory Rebel better at opposing the Tories than the loving leader meant to loving oppose the tories in a party dedicated to help people in poor conditions because of said Tories. How do you even loving manage that without being a loving gently caress up. He's a loving accelerationist moron. ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:you know it won't be though. Didn't one Belgian region almost torpedo a trade deal with Canada? Yep.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:21
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serious gaylord posted:Yeah except that's just not going to happen. Remember when Corbyns big selling point was the £3 supporters? That he was popular with demographics that didn't traditionally support labour and this was going to sweep him to success at every election because instead of having to convince shy tories to vote, he'd have this huge swell of people that didn't normally vote so labour would no longer have to pretend to be tory lite to win? Quite. Brexit is very unpopular with a lot of Corbyn's support. This will hurt his support in the party. All thibs poo poo about it just being rhetoric, it misses the point. We voted for him to make rhetorical arguments in favour of the NHS, public transport being taken back to public ownership, anti-union laws being replaced with pro-worker legislation, mass building of social housing to end the housing market bubble and the fetishisation of home ownership. Not pretending to differ between Tory Brexit and a mythical Brexit which isn't a slow suicide of the British economy. And if we're talking of rhetorical gestures and general symbolism, calling for a three line whip over this vote was a loving terrible look. I don't think Labour will lose a lot of seats to the Liberals over it, only a moron would trust those loving clowns. But hey, not like there's many seats we can afford to lose. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 01:25
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serious gaylord posted:I have also just resigned my labour membership. Why? Do you not agree with your CLP choice of who to stand for election in your area?
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Feb 9, 2017 01:25
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forkboy84 posted:Quite. Brexit is very unpopular with a lot of Corbyn's support. This will hurt his support in the party. All thibs poo poo about it just being rhetoric, it misses the point. We voted for him to make rhetorical arguments in favour of the NHS, public transport being taken back to public ownership, anti-union laws being replaced with pro-worker legislation, mass building of social housing to end the housing market bubble and the fetishisation of home ownership. Not pretending to differ between Tory Brexit and a mythical Brexit which isn't a slow suicide of the British economy. And maybe, just maybe, if Labour aren't being dragged through the loving mud by the press for "opposing the will of the people", he can get back to parking on that. E; poo poo, double post.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:26
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forkboy84 posted:Quite. Brexit is very unpopular with a lot of Corbyn's support. This will hurt his support in the party. All thibs poo poo about it just being rhetoric, it misses the point. We voted for him to make rhetorical arguments in favour of the NHS, public transport being taken back to public ownership, anti-union laws being replaced with pro-worker legislation, mass building of social housing to end the housing market bubble and the fetishisation of home ownership. Not pretending to differ between Tory Brexit and a mythical Brexit which isn't a slow suicide of the British economy. How would you expect Corbyn to square the circle of voting for a referendum and then voting against it's outcome? Both with the public and with democratic principles?
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Feb 9, 2017 01:27
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mehall posted:And maybe, just maybe, if Labour aren't being dragged through the loving mud by the press for "opposing the will of the people", he can get back to parking on that. Oh. It's the media's fault.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:27
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jabby posted:How would you expect Corbyn to square the circle of voting for a referendum and then voting against it's outcome? Both with the public and with democratic principles? gently caress. Corbyn's. Principles.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:28
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mehall posted:Why? Do you not agree with your CLP choice of who to stand for election in your area? I'm in a tory lock seat, theres 0 chance of a labour candidate ever winning here so my support of the labour party was to give them money and go and campaign somewhere they might win. I'm not doing that for a party leadership that voted in lockstep with the tories tonight. They can gently caress right off.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:30
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mehall posted:And maybe, just maybe, if Labour aren't being dragged through the loving mud by the press for "opposing the will of the people", he can get back to parking on that. There's a lot that's been hysterically labelled as "loony lefty" stuff, but this isn't one of them. This is a fuckup and it's one Corbyn owns. jabby posted:How would you expect Corbyn to square the circle of voting for a referendum and then voting against it's outcome? Both with the public and with democratic principles? We voted to leave the EU, not to destroy worker's rights and cripple the economy. Also, half the country doesn't want to leave the EU and also deserve representation.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:30
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Pissflaps posted:Oh. It's the media's fault. Part of it will be, yes. Part of it is all Corbyn. Countering the nonsense of hardcore Corbyn fans with nonsense of your own isn't helpful. The media is poo poo. Corbyn is poo poo. These two things can be true at the same time.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:31
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jabby posted:How would you expect Corbyn to square the circle of voting for a referendum and then voting against it's outcome? Both with the public and with democratic principles? He can vote how he likes but should have given the same courtesy to his MPs, much like the Syrian vote.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:33
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Heh, say what you like about the SNP, but they're very good at finding inventive ways to get media coverage of them in the chamber - here whistling 'Ode to Joy'. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38914765 Which led me on to this video, and the deputy speaker Lindsay Hoyle getting properly wound up: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38897588 I guess it's not been an easy week for the speakers.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:34
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Wikipedia has banned the use of the Daily Mail as a reliable source lmao
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Feb 9, 2017 01:40
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There have been some good soundbites in amongst the tedium of the arguments. Soubry's 'willy-waving' made me go back and check I hadn't misheard. I'd like to see less polite fencing and more "Are you loving kidding me?" given some of the discussion.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:43
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Great day for democracy. Britain voted for Brexit and is getting Brexit. Politics!
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Feb 9, 2017 01:44
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Pissflaps posted:Oh. It's the media's fault. When it comes to the likes of the Sun, Daily Mail and Express? Extremely Yes. Everything else? Part of it will be. There is no excuse for this poo poo though. mehall posted:Why? Do you not agree with your CLP choice of who to stand for election in your area? Because he's doing the same thing that many former Labour supporters did when they felt betrayed by Labour.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:46
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I think john redwood won the villain of the week award
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Feb 9, 2017 01:46
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I think, to be honest, if this is your idea of treachery, you are going to have a very unpleasant life.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:48
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Glad to see that Corbyns unique brand of straight talking, honest politics has had another astonishing success
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Feb 9, 2017 01:56
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OwlFancier posted:I think, to be honest, if this is your idea of treachery, you are going to have a very unpleasant life. Many will be considering it treachery since most labour members are for remain.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:59
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forkboy84 posted:He can vote how he likes but should have given the same courtesy to his MPs, much like the Syrian vote. To be honest considering the views of most of the PLP, do you really think the numbers would be that different with a free vote? EDIT: I mean it would've kept Clive Lewis in the shadow cabinet, but at a fairly significant political cost. Personally I expect him to be back within a few months. jabby fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 02:00
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Extreme0 posted:Many will be considering it treachery since most labour members are for remain. Then more fool them. The referendum is simply a shite position of Labour to be in, and much as I would like it to not have happened I see nothing productive in throwing a paddy fit because Labour no longer opposes it. I think the green party has an utterly stupid science policy but I was prepared to vote for them in 2015 for their economic position. Labour remains by far the best option today on a great many subjects of importance, their position on what is frankly a foregone conclusion should be of limited concern.
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Feb 9, 2017 02:03
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jabby posted:To be honest considering the views of most of the PLP, do you really think the numbers would be that different with a free vote? Well, we'll never know now, will we? Might have given a few more Tories a reason to think rebelling would have a point
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Feb 9, 2017 02:05
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At the very least, Abbott is for the chop. She voted against her constituents and I can't wait for Andy Neil's tweets about how she asked to get back on that piece of poo poo couch.
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Feb 9, 2017 02:05
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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:the general election will be in 2020, and May wants trigger A50 in March (?) which means that we'll be out of the EU by 2019 May is going to present a deal that basically says "give us what we have now, but we don't pay EU dues". The EU are going to tell her to gently caress off, she will refuse to budge, the EU will say there's nothing to negotiate. We'll be out on WTO rules sucking Trump's dick and selling the NHS in six months.
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Feb 9, 2017 02:06
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forkboy84 posted:Well, we'll never know now, will we? Might have given a few more Tories a reason to think rebelling would have a point Rebelling on what? The final vote? Because that would've made no difference with the majority of Labour in favour too. Or on the amendments? Because the votes on those are pretty much unconnected to the final vote, and I fail to see how a shift in Labour's position on the final vote would make Tories more likely to vote for amendments.
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Feb 9, 2017 02:07
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TheRat posted:If you think this is a shitshow, what do you think would happen if brexit was called off? People would be beating immigrants and leftwing politicans to death with copies of the daily mail on an hourly basis You genuinely think fascism is an overwhelming force that cannot, and so should not, be opposed? Racist street violence reveals some oracular truth as to how society works, and disliking that message doesn't mean you don't have to bow to it? You may want to ponder that for a bit before fully committing to that argument. Because people were hanged at Nuremberg for getting that wrong.
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Feb 9, 2017 02:21
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radmonger posted:You genuinely think fascism is an overwhelming force that cannot, and so should not, be opposed? Racist street violence reveals some oracular truth as to how society works, and disliking that message doesn't mean you don't have to bow to it? This thread is so full of straw men you could populate a loving city
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Feb 9, 2017 02:26
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spectralent posted:Well, yes, I assumed you'd read the i-told-you-so argument as being more diplomatically phrased than going up to a load of starving homeless, dropping trou and sharting over them. This isn't what happened though. Here's what Labour did:
That's the key difference - this wasn't a normal vote where they get to decide on our behalf what they think should happen, the electorate had already decided. That's fundamentally different from the Tories saying "we want to do this" and Labour saying "we think that's bad". It would have been a vote to overturn a democratic decision, poo poo as that decision is, and that's a whole other can of worms. Same for threatening to block it if the amendments weren't passed, if we're being optimists and believing there was ever a hope of enough Tories breaking ranks and voting against the final bill in an act of political suicide But what they did is to vote for significant changes to the process, which the Tories voted against. So yeah, it is a Tory brexit, because the Tories have voted to keep full control and responsibility for how the negotiations go, and they're gonna go very badly. They openly rejected the kind of soft-brexit safeguards the majority of people want to see at minimum. Labour now represent people's ideal of how things should go, the Tories get to own the terrible reality Whether you think there's even a remote chance of that working out, that's basically Labour's strategy for the next two years. I know everyone's unhappy that it's going ahead, and disappointed that Labour didn't stand against it on principle, but do you really honestly think it could have been stopped? The best chance of stopping it (and all the disaster and suffering it's going to bring) is to push public opinion to the 'hell no this is a bad idea' side, and either hold a second referendum on the deal or just outright cancel the whole thing with public backing. Labour needs to become a trusted voice on this, and that's what they're trying to do
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Feb 9, 2017 02:52
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baka kaba posted:This isn't what happened though. Here's what Labour did: Thank you for this effort post, and for articulating the thoughts I haven't been able to make as clear as this.
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Feb 9, 2017 03:05
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baka kaba posted:This isn't what happened though. Here's what Labour did: Good post but I don't think this is the public's impression. I think Tory voters are empowered by what they see as a strong leader and Labour voters feel abandoned. Labour may have done everything in a proper and noble fashion but I feel they are going to pay dearly.
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Feb 9, 2017 03:57
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Regarde Aduck posted:Good post but I don't think this is the public's impression. I think Tory voters are empowered by what they see as a strong leader and Labour voters feel abandoned. Labour may have done everything in a proper and noble fashion but I feel they are going to pay dearly. It's definitely not the public impression right now, no - like you say the Tories represent the architects of all the Brexit hopes and dreams, Labour represents at best a good faith bystander and at worst a party that's betrayed people But that was always going to be the trade-off, and they're positioning themselves for the long term. Representing an opposition to the road the government is taking us down, making demands and criticisms in good faith instead of as the anti-brexit party that (obviously) just wants to be contrarian and undermine things People who felt betrayed will become more resignedly pragmatic, people who believed the Tories' promises will identify more with Labour's position as the hard truth starts to shake out. That's the hope anyway. We've got two years for people to gradually be convinced that things are going to be Real hosed Up, and maybe for a 'stay in with reforms' deal to be struck with the EU. This is basically the start of a new era of politics
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Feb 9, 2017 05:26
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baka kaba posted:But what they did is to vote for significant changes to the process, which the Tories voted against. So yeah, it is a Tory brexit, because the Tories have voted to keep full control and responsibility for how the negotiations go, and they're gonna go very badly. They openly rejected the kind of soft-brexit safeguards the majority of people want to see at minimum. Labour now represent people's ideal of how things should go, the Tories get to own the terrible reality Everything was all right, the struggle was finished. Corbynites had won the victory over themselves. They loved New Labour. You're absolutely correct, a wide majority of the voters prefer Soft Brexit to Hard Brexit. I'd be willing to wager any sum you'd like, though, that a wide majority also favor Remain to Hard Brexit. Corbyn has sold the principles of his party out for the chance at converting the mythical Centrist Brexit into Labour voters. It's the epitome of the worst impulses of PLP but somehow it's okay this time because it's our guy. Corbyn had three options. 1: He could whip against Brexit and set Labour as "the party that didn't want this. The party that tried to save you"-even before the disastrous effects of Brexit, a huge chunk of voters agree with this assessment. This strategy relies on softbrexit voters, upset with the terrible reality and the hard Tory Brexit, deciding that the party that tried to warn them is a better fit than the one who gleefully hosed them. 2: He could whip for Brexit, and whatever series of conditions he wants to ask for but has no ability to procure. This strategy relies on Centrist Brexit queueing up for Labour, because they respected the platonic ideal of Soft Brexit...and that Remain will all flock to (or stay) in Labour because, what, they'll go Lib Dem instead? This logic sounds familar, but I can't place where I've heard it before. Maybe if I replace brexit with "any economic, employment, or working rights issue ever"? Ah, yes, that's it. 3: He could lay down the whip and let members vote however they'd like. It would lose the benefit(?) of a unified Labour front, but would allow Remain a few figurehead to rally behind as everything goes to poo poo. The cynic in me says he avoided it because a coup might actually work if a Remain Figurehead in his shadow cabinet gave it a shot after a year or so. But whatever, I'm a Yank dilettante (who has watched with interest since before Blair) and perilously close to agreeing with Pissflaps, so take it all with a grain of salt.
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Feb 9, 2017 06:13
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the problem is that none of these options are or were likely to stop Brexit or guaranteed to result in long term success for Labour. he's shown leadership and it's on him, let's see how it goes. unfortunately remain lost the referendum and although I don't like it I have to say I do agree with Corbyn's position to respect the result.
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Feb 9, 2017 06:24
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serious gaylord posted:Yeah except that's just not going to happen. Remember when Corbyns big selling point was the £3 supporters? That he was popular with demographics that didn't traditionally support labour and this was going to sweep him to success at every election because instead of having to convince shy tories to vote, he'd have this huge swell of people that didn't normally vote so labour would no longer have to pretend to be tory lite to win? 90% of Labour members voted against Brexit. That should give you an idea on how the £3 members voted in the referendum.
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Feb 9, 2017 08:01
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