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Incidentally, it is completely possible to go against the mythical Will of the People™ if you have the gumption for the fight. Meg Whitman ran for Governor of California on defending Prop 8 (which was endorsed by Californians 53-47 two years prior) and got trounced in what was, outside of California, a Republican wave year.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:26
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Remember when Labour fought for gay rights and against the death penalty despite the public not wanting them to do either of those things.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:27
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Now they can't even face down a coalition of people hosed off about immigration and a few people who think leaving the EU will make Greece less poo poo.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:28
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Corbyn getting Labour to vote against the bill might have been technically useless, but it might have gone a ways to implement a good political message- messaging being an area of Corbyn's leadership he's particularly bad at. Nicola Sturgeon held a vote in Holyrood that was also technically useless, as Holyrood as no say whatsoever in how the gov't will implement Article 50, but it was politically canny- it showed the SNP as a unified pro-Remain force, put the Tories in the awkward position of having to vote against most of their constituents, and put Scottish Labour in an even more awkward position by forcing Dugdale to go against Corbyn's position and vote against the bill. It helped the SNP's perception as a "good" party and weakened their opposition's images. A lot to be gained be technically useless voting acts.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:28
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jBrereton posted:Remember when Labour fought for gay rights and against the death penalty despite the public not wanting them to do either of those things. Quite. Despite being constantly maligned, the Human Rights Act is one of the best pieces of legislation in the past fifty years. Coohoolin posted:Corbyn getting Labour to vote against the bill might have been technically useless, but it might have gone a ways to implement a good political message- messaging being an area of Corbyn's leadership he's particularly bad at. Nicola Sturgeon held a vote in Holyrood that was also technically useless, as Holyrood as no say whatsoever in how the gov't will implement Article 50, but it was politically canny- it showed the SNP as a unified pro-Remain force, put the Tories in the awkward position of having to vote against most of their constituents, and put Scottish Labour in an even more awkward position by forcing Dugdale to go against Corbyn's position and vote against the bill. It helped the SNP's perception as a "good" party and weakened their opposition's images. A lot to be gained be technically useless voting acts. The problem Corbyn has is that symbolic acts carry more weight than substantive acts, but he's unwilling to at least try for the former. No-one in Labour's seats in London is going to be talking about the minor amendments Labour got through, they're going to talk about how Labour MPs for 70%+ Remain seats voted for Tory Brexit. TinTower fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 14:28
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Coohoolin posted:Corbyn getting Labour to vote against the bill might have been technically useless, but it might have gone a ways to implement a good political message- messaging being an area of Corbyn's leadership he's particularly bad at. Nicola Sturgeon held a vote in Holyrood that was also technically useless, as Holyrood as no say whatsoever in how the gov't will implement Article 50, but it was politically canny- it showed the SNP as a unified pro-Remain force, put the Tories in the awkward position of having to vote against most of their constituents, and put Scottish Labour in an even more awkward position by forcing Dugdale to go against Corbyn's position and vote against the bill. It helped the SNP's perception as a "good" party and weakened their opposition's images. A lot to be gained be technically useless voting acts. scotland voted to remain in the EU by a clear majority. It's a little easier for sturgeon to vote against implementing A50.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:29
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Labour voters voted to remain in the EU by a clear majority also.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:31
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Fangz posted:As a lazy hypothetical, is there actually a point at which Corbyn would be perceived to have crossed some kind of red line for people? Politics is all about choosing the best option out of what's on offer, and if you're really advanced campaigning to make them better. Talking about 'red lines' belies the fact that it only makes sense to abandon Corbyn if an option that suits you better presents itself. A better question would be if Corbyn has lost your support over Article 50 then who do you support instead? Personally I support socialism and Corbyn remains the only socialist on offer. And it would be difficult to draw me away from him in a future leadership election due to my deep mistrust of the PLP.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:31
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Jedit posted:And what do you do for a living in the meantime?
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Feb 9, 2017 14:31
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Fangz posted:As a lazy hypothetical, is there actually a point at which Corbyn would be perceived to have crossed some kind of red line for people? As with all things, depends on the individual. Clearly the Brexit vote was a red line for Serious Gaylord. I'd not describe it as such for me, though it was the latest in a long line of events leaving me questioning his continued leadership and whether or not in the medium to long term he's doing the cause of the left more harm than good. Stumbling block remains the question of who replaces him. I'd vote for Lewis but am not sure if he'd run against Jeremy, he seems quite loyal to him even after being shunted from Defence last year. Continuing absence of serious candidates from the right though.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:31
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LemonDrizzle posted:Eh, that [country]-born formulation crops in all sorts of places - for example, here are the opening sentences of the bios of the winners of the 2016 Physics Nobel: I'm not saying it's an evil racist plot though. I'm saying that somewhere in Wikipedia's culture is the idea that being born in a foreign country is a remarkable thing - remarkable enough that it should be highlighted right at the top of an article. The examples you give are of people now based in America who were born in a foreign country which happens to be the UK.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:33
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Paxman posted:I'm not saying it's an evil racist plot though. I'm saying that somewhere in Wikipedia's culture is the idea that being born in a foreign country is a remarkable thing - remarkable enough that it should be highlighted right at the top of an article. The examples you give are of people now based in America who were born in a foreign country which happens to be the UK.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:34
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Fangz posted:Labour voters voted to remain in the EU by a clear majority also. Scotland: 62-38 Labour voters: 65-35 Labour members: 90-9
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Feb 9, 2017 14:34
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forkboy84 posted:As with all things, depends on the individual. Clearly the Brexit vote was a red line for Serious Gaylord. I'd not describe it as such for me, though it was the latest in a long line of events leaving me questioning his continued leadership and whether or not in the medium to long term he's doing the cause of the left more harm than good. I just feel like people are tip-toeing, step by step, into the position that whatever Corbyn says or does must be good, there are no alternatives etc etc etc. As far as I can see, thanks to the lovely quality of arguments offered up in support of this decision, the brexit vote will likely be only the start of Corbyn's descent into outright cowardly irrelevance.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:34
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jBrereton posted:Remember when Labour fought for gay rights and against the death penalty despite the public not wanting them to do either of those things.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:35
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forkboy84 posted:There was never actually a referendum to keep the death penalty or to stop lowering the age of consent for homosexuals though so it's very Pissflappian to bring that comparison up. Comparing apples with crayons, or rocks or computer games.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:36
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Fangz posted:As a lazy hypothetical, is there actually a point at which Corbyn would be perceived to have crossed some kind of red line for people? Yes: if he ceased to be the only left wing candidate. Until we have changed either the rules or the PLP sufficiently for left wing candidates not to be blocked, Corbyn it has to be. This has been said so often here I don't know how it is such a mystery to people. But if you wanted a red line that was a policy, it would be if he started supporting austerity. That was the main issue in his campaign for leadership. He never campaigned on refusing the referendum result (rightly IMO).
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Feb 9, 2017 14:37
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This wasn't a winnable situation, and theorycrafting an optimal response is ultimately pointless.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:38
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quote:But if you wanted a red line that was a policy, it would be if he started supporting austerity. That was the main issue in his campaign for leadership. He never campaigned on refusing the referendum result (rightly IMO). Alright then, because I expect that to happen soon enough.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:38
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Fangz posted:I just feel like people are tip-toeing, step by step, into the position that whatever Corbyn says or does must be good, there are no alternatives etc etc etc. As far as I can see, thanks to the lovely quality of arguments offered up in support of this decision, the brexit vote will likely be only the start of Corbyn's descent into outright cowardly irrelevance. There's undoubtedly an element of that. I have been called a red Tory on Twitter for voicing reasonable concerns about his frankly poo poo, haphazard leadership style. Some folk like to moan about the splitters on the left if you try to hold Jeremy to a fair degree of criticism. It's a pretty minority view though, I'd not worry about it yet.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:39
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On a purely cynical level I don't really get what Labour have to gain by supporting Article 50. If Brexit turns out not to be a complete disaster, there's a reasonable exit deal and the economy is fairly on track then 2020 will be a complete Tory, 400 seat wipeout no matter what Labour do. If it's the catastrophe anyone with a brain expects it to be, then surely you want to be on record opposing it as much as possible.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:39
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Paxman posted:I'm not saying it's an evil racist plot though. I'm saying that somewhere in Wikipedia's culture is the idea that being born in a foreign country is a remarkable thing - remarkable enough that it should be highlighted right at the top of an article. The examples you give are of people now based in America who were born in a foreign country which happens to be the UK. Yeah, what's considered an important fact in one place might not be elsewhere. It's relevant to me if someone calls taps faucets, but it probably isn't to an american. forkboy84 posted:As with all things, depends on the individual. Clearly the Brexit vote was a red line for Serious Gaylord. I'd not describe it as such for me, though it was the latest in a long line of events leaving me questioning his continued leadership and whether or not in the medium to long term he's doing the cause of the left more harm than good. This is the big issue, but this is basically the only issue. I'm certainly not actively supporting this shambles and I won't be renewing my membership, though I'm paid out for the year. TinTower posted:Scotland: 62-38 Note also what a mockery these figures make of the "Labour sabotaged the remain campaign" argument; if the tories had this performance we'd be in.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:40
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jBrereton posted:Maybe you're being hypersensitive about something that doesn't matter. I stand by my position that "I'm not knocking Wikipedia, which I think is good, I'm saying personal biais is just impossible for human beings to avoid." Why do you think that is hypersensitive? e: or you can just call me that if you like, it's not worth arguing about
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Feb 9, 2017 14:40
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Wikipedia has been debating over the past eight months whether a far-right terrorist shooting and killing a Labour Member of Parliament for political reasons counts as an assassination.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:44
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Fangz posted:Alright then, because I expect that to happen soon enough. I mean I'd argue that Corbynite Labour is *already* in support of austerity, thanks to their commitment to the boneheaded fiscal credibility rule last year. But I'm sure Corbyn will make his support for austerity more explicit in a short while, since there's not far he needs to go to make that so.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:44
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TinTower posted:Scotland: 62-38 I mean considering that a shitload of Labour constituencies voted Leave I doubt the 65-35 a lot (unless the people voting just no longer consider themselves Labour voters), and the members was being consistently estimated at something like 70 before now being 90?
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Feb 9, 2017 14:44
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Paxman posted:I'm not saying it's an evil racist plot though. I'm saying that somewhere in Wikipedia's culture is the idea that being born in a foreign country is a remarkable thing - remarkable enough that it should be highlighted right at the top of an article. The examples you give are of people now based in America who were born in a foreign country which happens to be the UK. To be fair SP Hinduja only became a British citizen in 1999 and Peter Mandelson was forced to resign after allegations he intervened in the process when he made financial commitments to the millennium dome so I think it is a bit noteworthy
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Feb 9, 2017 14:46
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Fangz posted:Alright then, because I expect that to happen soon enough. jBrereton posted:If there had been a referendum would it have been the wrong thing to do?
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Feb 9, 2017 14:46
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Paxman posted:I stand by my position that "I'm not knocking Wikipedia, which I think is good, I'm saying personal biais is just impossible for human beings to avoid."
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Feb 9, 2017 14:48
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TinTower posted:The mental hurdles people are jumping over to excuse Corbyn literally voting for a hard Tory Brexit reminds me of that "irregular verbs" joke in Yes Minister: I respect the government's mandate, you prop up an unpopular government, he is a yellow Tory. Considering this can all trace back to Cleggo the Clown's hilarious trade-off of giving the Tories free reign for five years in exchange for a hobbled referendum, you really have no leg to stand on here.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:48
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forkboy84 posted:Oh gosh, what a loving sick gotcha bro! It wasn't a referendum, your hypothetical is dumb. Of course the right thing was improving gay rights. Doesn't change that a referendum, while not legally binding, does make it exceedingly difficult to oppose the will of the people.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:49
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jBrereton posted:I dunno man Labour and the Tories have pretty extensive experience in ignoring the will of the people or at least reshaping the will of the people post facto. Oh god, gently caress off you dense oval office. When have they ever ignored the result of a referendum?
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Feb 9, 2017 14:53
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forkboy84 posted:Based on what? Like, this seems as stupid and fanciful as people who've convinced themselves Brexit won't end in disaster on economic and diplomatic levels. Supporting austerity is some leap from supporting Brexit, there has always been a left-wing cry to leave it, hardly a sign he's moved to the right. Well, like, I said, the fiscal rule stuff. Labour's adopted the position, contrary to all economic sense, that governments need to commit to deficit balancing. http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/08/01/a-note-to-john-mcdonnells-economic-adviser-on-fiscal-rules-and-their-desirability/ quote:First, I object because this rule clearly has a political commitment to austerity in current government spending inherent within it in an economic downturn. I know, of course, that the rule is meant to be achieved over a cycle, but given that no one has any clue how long such cycles last and what might happen next within one once such a rule is adopted the pressure to balance the books at any point in time is very strong and austerity inducing and that makes no sense in an economic downturn. As such a rule of this sort is always going to be bad news for a government that believes it has a Keynesian role: the two are just not compatible one with another in practical political terms. So once the tax take reduces due to Brexit (and note that tax take reduction here is *not* cyclical), Labour's own fiscal rule means spending must be constrained. Labour will doubtlessly try to push for a balanced program of tax increases and spending cuts (like Osborne's punishment budget) but this will be rejected, and then we'll be in a pretty fair approximation of the brexit situation where the only way to stick to Labour's own rule would be to vote in favour of the Tory austerity plan.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:53
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Fangz posted:I mean I'd argue that Corbynite Labour is *already* in support of austerity, thanks to their commitment to the boneheaded fiscal credibility rule last year. I did not like that at all, though I was inclined to blame McDonnell rather than Corbyn. But it is not austerity, and can be wiggled around. It was also before Corbyn's re-election, which is where he did more anti-austerity campaigning.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:53
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forkboy84 posted:Oh gosh, what a loving sick gotcha bro! It wasn't a referendum, your hypothetical is dumb. Of course the right thing was improving gay rights. Doesn't change that a referendum, while not legally binding, does make it exceedingly difficult to oppose the will of the people. Opposing Prop 8 didn't hurt Jerry Brown or the rest of the California Democratic Party in 2010, despite the rest of America lurching Republican. jBrereton posted:Where are these figures coming from? Labour voters, Labour members.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:55
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jBrereton posted:I think those questions of identity are something that even the people in those articles would have a changing view of day-by-day, so describing someone as English rather than British, or where their parents are from before their cultural identity rather than putting the other first is not necessarily a sign of anything malevolent, it's just one of them that's really down to who writes the article and on what day. Well yes, you've just repeated what I said back to me so 
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Feb 9, 2017 14:56
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forkboy84 posted:Oh god, gently caress off you dense oval office. When have they ever ignored the result of a referendum?
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Feb 9, 2017 14:57
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Oh dear me posted:I did not like that at all, though I was inclined to blame McDonnell rather than Corbyn. But it is not austerity, and can be wiggled around. It was also before Corbyn's re-election, which is where he did more anti-austerity campaigning. It's 'not austerity' because we're not currently at the position where it can be triggered. But the arguments for it lead quite simply to austerity. Like, the whole idea of it is to establish 'economic credibility' for Labour, and if credibility really translates to 'we don't wanna be attacked by the right wing press!' as it seems to do for Brexit, soon enough Corbyn will be asked to clarify whether he really means austerity or not. I find it very likely he'll just dodge the issue by claiming that Labour would have cut a different combination of programs or coupled it with tax increases, or cut slightly less and that Socialist Responsible Economics would be Entirely Different from Tory Austerity. Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 14:57
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forkboy84 posted:Oh god, gently caress off you dense oval office. When have they ever ignored the result of a referendum? Birmingham (42-58), Coventry (36-64), Manchester (47-53), and Newcastle (38-62) all voted in referendums in 2012 not to have mayors. They'll be electing mayors this May.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:58
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Remember how the vote against the FARC peace agreement was entirely ignored?
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Feb 9, 2017 15:02
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