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Fangz posted:But the arguments for it lead quite simply to austerity. I agree, which is why I don't like it. But you still have the problem that no other Labour candidate is offering anything better.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:02
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So it's self-reporting? I dunno I think there might be a few more tesseractors in the Labour membership than they wanted to admit, and certainly there were more Labour voters who voted to Leave than are saying so, or Leave would not have won so much outside of the south.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:03
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Fangz posted:I mean I'd argue that Corbynite Labour is *already* in support of austerity, thanks to their commitment to the boneheaded fiscal credibility rule last year. But I'm sure Corbyn will make his support for austerity more explicit in a short while, since there's not far he needs to go to make that so. I get that you're upset because of the A50 vote but suggesting that Corbyn is some kind of secret fan of austerity is more of a stretch than the Goatse dude's butthole
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Feb 9, 2017 15:06
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jBrereton posted:So it's self-reporting? The weightings all fit. Also, lol. 
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Feb 9, 2017 15:08
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jBrereton posted:How's about the new powers in Scotland which fell short of what people were promised in The Vow? The referendum was in/out, not the terms of that. ...hang on a minute.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:08
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TinTower posted:Wikipedia has been debating over the past eight months whether a far-right terrorist shooting and killing a Labour Member of Parliament for political reasons counts as an assassination. Is it? I think of assassination as something more organised, with 'higher powers' involved.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:08
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MikeCrotch posted:I get that you're upset because of the A50 vote but suggesting that Corbyn is some kind of secret fan of austerity is more of a stretch than the Goatse dude's butthole I'm not saying Corbyn's a 'secret fan of austerity', I'm saying that Labour's resistance to it has all the fortitude of a wet noodle. If it's people's red line on him then, okay, because I'm convinced it'll be put to the test soon enough. But I reckon people will find excuses and be flexible on whether Corbyn's position is 'really austerity' and talk about how Labour is in a no win situation where whipping for Tory plans is actually good.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:10
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Tesseraction posted:The referendum was in/out, not the terms of that.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:10
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jBrereton posted:So it's self-reporting? Or alternatively there's just, yaknow, more people in the UK than Labour voters/members. Not to say I agree with the stats but it's not like the Labour vote or membership is so overwhelmingly large that they control the rest of the UK's results in the ref.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:11
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Oh dear me posted:I agree, which is why I don't like it. But you still have the problem that no other Labour candidate is offering anything better. How much of this is due to us not knowing a lot about the other Labour MPs?
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Feb 9, 2017 15:13
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TheRat posted:Is it? I think of assassination as something more organised, with 'higher powers' involved. 
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Feb 9, 2017 15:13
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jBrereton posted:How's about the new powers in Scotland which fell short of what people were promised in The Vow? The Vow was bollocks on the front of the Record, not actually any part of the referendum on Scottish independence. This is exceedingly boring. Stop with the pedantry drivel, one Pissflaps is more than enough. We even agree that the 3 line whip was bad, especially as it just seemed unnecessary with so many of the pro-EU MPs like Umuna coming around that actually economic suicide out of poorly informed xenophobia is a good idea.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:14
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Zephro posted:OK no, you're right. It's impossible to live overseas and you're all stuck here. Sucks to be you guys, I guess. Speaking and writing English natively is probably the single biggest advantage of being born in the UK, even without other skills that single attribute will find you work in half the rest of the world. It's easier for an English speaker to move abroad in Europe than for almost anyone else, because no matter where you go people will speak at least a bit of your language. If language barriers don't stop Latvians or Hungarians from finding work abroad I don't see why it should stop Britons (if they can overcome their innate fear of foreigners and deeply traumatic memories of school French lessons).
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Feb 9, 2017 15:14
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jBrereton posted:If you're trying to claim that the promised preconditions for "no" were not a factor in unionists somehow not snatching defeat from the jaws of victory I don't know what to say. This is an absurd interpretation of my post. The ScotRef was whether Scotland would become independent. It voted to remain in the UK, which the government honoured. The conditions in which it stayed were not at any point part of the referendum itself, merely a promise from a serial liar that he totally (wink wink) will (nudge nudge) honour his word. The government if anything doubled down on the result by not even offering the concessions it promised in the 11th hour.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:14
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TinTower posted:
Also, because I forgot, the government refused a request by the public to name a £300m research vessel "Boaty McBoatface". At least Pitbull went to Alaska.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:17
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TheRat posted:Is it? I think of assassination as something more organised, with 'higher powers' involved. Did Leon Czoglosz assassinate McKinley in the States? He was a lone wolf. Wikipedia certainly calls it an assassination. Or for another British example, see Spencer Perceval was assassinated.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:19
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Kennedy was assassinated by a lone wolf
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Feb 9, 2017 15:22
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TinTower posted:Also, because I forgot, the government refused a request by the public to name a £300m research vessel "Boaty McBoatface". Boaty McBoatface wasn't a referendum though, it was an online poll. Slight difference, plus the fact naming a boat was a silly thing as opposed to EU membership which certain people get quite worked up about. Can't comment on the mayoral elections because I don't follow local politics in England. Were mayors for those towns in the Tory 2015 manifesto? If we'd had a general election between August and now and Labour had a commitment to oppose leaving the EU, it'd be a lot easier to go against the referendum.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:26
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Fangz posted:How much of this is due to us not knowing a lot about the other Labour MPs? None of it. It's the result of Labour Party rules and the balance of power on the NEC.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:27
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forkboy84 posted:Boaty McBoatface wasn't a referendum though, it was an online poll. Slight difference, plus the fact naming a boat was a silly thing as opposed to EU membership which certain people get quite worked up about. Only Manchester was mentioned in the Tory manifesto, although that was basically a fait accompli as the deal had been agreed by council leaders (not even full council) without a referendum the previous November. The Tory manifesto also committed to the single market regardless of the referendum result, by the way.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:29
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jBrereton posted:This right here is some revisionist bullshit. The point of asking is that they tried to add sensible guarantees and requirements to the process, which were shot down by the Tories. You can think of it as symbolic like voting against A50 would have been, if you like. They never had any power to force the issue, this is a Tory majority united behind their party, even when it comes to amendments many of their pro-remain MPs wanted Hell I wanted another referendum, or the whole thing blocked, but I also recognise how much of a shitstorm surrounds both of those at the moment. Nothing's changed, the Tories are still promising the moon, more people than ever support going through with it, and Labour need the power to convince the pro-Leave side in particular that things are actually looking bad - being the bad guy and the scapegoat doesn't help with that I keep saying it but Labour are in a really difficult situation right now, and they've made a hard choice with short-term fallout hoping for long-term influence. People keep going "Corbyn wants brexit!" but the fact is the party in general backed this approach, against their own beliefs and often their constituencies'. They ain't doing this out of fierce loyalty to their beloved leader. If it were clear it would work then it'd have been an easy decision, but they've decided it's their best shot
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Feb 9, 2017 15:31
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big scary monsters posted:lol Obviously it's harder to do this if you've got kids or w/e but this thread is mostly pretty young and it is only going to get harder to do from here on out.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:43
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forkboy84 posted:Did Leon Czoglosz assassinate McKinley in the States? He was a lone wolf. Wikipedia certainly calls it an assassination. Or for another British example, see Spencer Perceval was assassinated. I'd put him about halfway between John Wilkes Booth, where a bunch of people talked about how awesome it would be to kill pro-Union politicians, but he was the only one that went all out, and a lone wolf like John Bellingham. Both of those were considered assassinations though, so I don't see why it wouldn't be called that either way.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:46
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There's also the issue that the standard Remain arguments didn't work in the run up to the referendum and there's no indication they are going to work now. It's all well and good to draw a line in the sand, say "No to Article 50!" and trot out the sensible arguments that a hard brexit will gently caress up the country/soft brexit still has a bunch of issues, but if that fails to convince people in general, and the public continues to buy May and Farage's lies until it's too late, what good does it do? I broadly agree with Corbyn's plan to back the referendum result so not to alienate Brexit voters, but to fight for as soft a brexit as possible. I think voting for A50 after the amendments were rejected undermined that unfortunately, but I appreciated that there was A Plan, as all of Labour's options were pretty terrible all told. I wonder if things had been different if Tristram Hunt hadnt resigned and forced the Stoke by-election, who knows. I think the three line whip was a mistake, and that it indicates Corbyn's failure both to convince the PLP and the membership of Labour's path. I think had he started down this path earlier and spent more effort convincing the party while not whipping the final vote, things wouldn't have got to where there are. I think ultimately it was a stark reminder of Corbyn's inexperience as a political operator, and suspect that the countdown to his replacement has begun, unless he can find some way of bringing the party back round. Corbyn's inexperience btw is why I don't want Clive Lewis anytime soon, as i'm extremely worried that both the Tories and the Labour Right would be able to have their way with him unless he has time to get more experience under his belt.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:48
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TinTower posted:The mental hurdles people are jumping over to excuse Corbyn literally voting for a hard Tory Brexit reminds me of that "irregular verbs" joke in Yes Minister: I respect the government's mandate, you prop up an unpopular government, he is a yellow Tory. The Lib Dems literally propped a Tory government. Labour is literally not. loving hell. Also nice Freudian slip because Lib Dems are Yellow Tories. Corbyn is definitely not a Red Tory. Lord of the Llamas fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 16:08
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Lord of the Llamas posted:The Lib Dems literally propped a Tory government. Labour is literally not. loving hell. Tell me exactly how voting for a Tory bill that is against Labour policy and the wishes of the vast majority of Labour voters and members isn't "propping up a Tory government".
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Feb 9, 2017 16:31
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TinTower posted:Tell me exactly how voting for a Tory bill that is against Labour policy and the wishes of the vast majority of Labour voters and members isn't "propping up a Tory government". Because the current Tory government has a majority and doesn't need propping up??? Much unlike certain other Tory governments I could name.
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Feb 9, 2017 16:34
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TinTower posted:Tell me exactly how voting for a Tory bill that is against Labour policy and the wishes of the vast majority of Labour voters and members isn't "propping up a Tory government". It wasn't and never has been Labour policy to ignore the referendum result by voting against Article 50 and neither a majority of remain voters or a majority of Labour voters advocate doing that. It might be Lib Dem policy. Which is why they poll at a stonking great 14% amongst Remain voters in the latest YouGov.
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Feb 9, 2017 16:38
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Baron Corbyn posted:Because the current Tory government has a majority and doesn't need propping up??? Much unlike certain other Tory governments I could name. They don't need propping up, but Corbyn's doing it anyway. Lord of the Llamas posted:It wasn't and never has been Labour policy to ignore the referendum result by voting against Article 50 and neither a majority of remain voters or a majority of Labour voters advocate doing that. Softest Brexit Possible is Labour policy. They voted for Hard Brexit last night.
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Feb 9, 2017 16:38
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TinTower posted:They don't need propping up, but Corbyn's doing it anyway. One bill. Corbyn is voting with the government on one bill. Your party were best pals with the Tories for 5 years. TinTower posted:Softest Brexit Possible is Labour policy. They voted for Hard Brexit last night. "Softest Brexit possible" does imply some sort of Brexit, and voting against Article 50 would kind of go against that policy.
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Feb 9, 2017 16:40
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TinTower posted:They don't need propping up, but Corbyn's doing it anyway. To prop up means to prevent from falling. Corbyn is not preventing the Tory government from falling, much unlike a certain other politician whose name was a C-word.
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Feb 9, 2017 16:40
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TinTower posted:Softest Brexit Possible is Labour policy. They voted for Hard Brexit last night. I don't know if you noticed but negotiations haven't even started. Saying Labour voted for hard Brexit because of the A50 bill is just as inaccurate as Kippers claiming the economy is totally fine and Brexit is a total success already.
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Feb 9, 2017 16:42
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https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/829698730924273664
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Feb 9, 2017 16:43
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Lord of the Llamas posted:It might be Lib Dem policy. Which is why they poll at a stonking great 14% amongst Remain voters in the latest YouGov. I get 18%. Labour are on 30% with Remain voters. I'd be interested in seeing new VI figures after the bill. Might have turned off a lot of Remain/Labour voters. cargohills posted:One bill. Corbyn is voting with the government on one bill. Your party were best pals with the Tories for 5 years. The most important bill possibly since the Human Rights Act. There's also the Snoopers Charter, where the former head of Liberty failed to vote against…
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Feb 9, 2017 16:46
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Good to know no important bills happened between 1998 and now.
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Feb 9, 2017 16:49
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 Labour's tumble in the polls: "it's only a flesh wound!"
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Feb 9, 2017 16:52
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I'd suggest the Marriage Act of 2013 was a pretty huge act. How did your man, Tim vote on that one, TinTower?
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Feb 9, 2017 16:53
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TinTower posted:
lol
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Feb 9, 2017 17:02
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TinTower posted:The Tory manifesto also committed to the single market regardless of the referendum result, by the way. And Corbyn should be fighting on that basis: that May has no mandate to broker a deal which takes us out of the single market. This is something the Tories couldn't legitimately protest and would shore up the assertion that Labour want what is best for Britain as well as respecting the will of the people. But he isn't. He's letting her do as she pleases because it's easier.
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Feb 9, 2017 17:04
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Baron Corbyn posted:I'd suggest the Marriage Act of 2013 was a pretty huge act. How did your man, Tim vote on that one, TinTower? 
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Feb 9, 2017 17:06
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