|
How can witches be real if anime isn't real?
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 08:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 09:25 |
|
|
Edit: Taking this back for a rewrite. Will post it tomorrow as it's late.
Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 08:59
|
|
|
Rodyle posted:Y'all newbies are so quick to assume the worst, you haven't even heard Rosa's side of the story yet! You were sayin'?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 09:29
|
|
|
I can't do this. I can't. I just went through 3 versions of this post to say that. 3 different effort posts. This hits too close to home, in the wrong way.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 10:06
|
|
|
I'm only making assumptions here, but people saying "nobody does anything about Rosa's mistreatment because 1980s Japan" doesn't quite make sense to me. In a conservative, traditional, family-oriented society, you would definitely expect authorities to be likely to turn a blind eye to abuse within larger families, but not single mothers. I think Maria being neglected is unfortunately one of those things which happens in any country in any time. I have no experience or much interest in defending the 1980s Japanese social welfare system, but even modern Japan has some of the most negative attitudes and unfriendly government policies towards working single mothers in the developed world, so it seems unlikely that anything Rosa gets away with is as a result of her time and culture. It's probably more likely to be because she comes from a big name family.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 10:34
|
|
|
Blue truths aren't valid unless they deny the witch 
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 10:49
|
|
|
As a continuation/aside for my Shannon/Beatrice alternate persona theory, the whole reason I think Shannon managed to get George to fall in love with her after breaking the spirit mirror was her devil's bargain with Beatrice. Breaking the mirror was essentially agreeing to Beatrice's demands, and that translated into making Shannon's psyche vulnerable to Beatrice's influence. The immediate effect of this was Beatrice's fulfillment of her end of the bargain...Shannon gained greater confidence and independence (Two of Beatrice's signature traits...traits that Shannon made her with) from Beatrice, and that made her much more forthcoming and attractive to George, leading to their getting together. On the flip side, this made Shannon's psyche vulnerable to Beatrice's influence, and that in addition to Shannon's own virtual lack of self-resolve led to the long term effect; Beatrice slowly took over Shannon's mind between the breaking of the mirror and the events of the murders. We can see this happening here, where Shannon has a tea party with Beatrice. In reality, Shannon's likely sitting at the table switching between the two and talking to herself. This is something Kanon sees, and he is terrified and angry at seeing his close friend (close enough to call her sister) change into someone completely unlike her...someone imposing, unnatural, and terrifying. Of course the story can't tell us that so he's opposing Beatrice here metaphorically. He may have had opportunities to tell others what was going on, but his devotion to his sister and his introverted nature (He's actually more withdrawn and isolated than Shannon, if such a thing is possible) prevent him from doing so. Beatrice later subverts him to the cause by promising him wealth and freedom from his servant-hood, but more importantly, promising to free Shannon, something that's implied with this scene. Something else that supports the gradual transition is the bottle messages, of which I assume there were at least three (Four including the current episode). They grow more and more fantastical and magical with each episode. The first had no magic. The second had stake sisters and goat butlers with lightsabers. The third went completely off the rails (In retrospect this scene is like a huge Star Wars-esque battle between the master Kumasawa and apprentice Beatrice, which makes it only slightly less ridiculous). Beatrice was influencing Shannon to write them, both in order to rehearse the big day as well as (Possibly, and the Beatrice we know would do such a thing) taunt the greater world with the whole catbox magic witches are real thing (Which succeeded). As Beatrice gained more and more influence the written magic became more and more intrusive and pronounced as all of Shannon's old imagination and knowledge returned through Beatrice. Solving the epitaph and getting her hands on the gold would also have been trivial for Beatrice - from the elaborateness and finesse of her murder plans she's more than intelligent enough to solve it, giving her an invaluable tool in subverting the other servants to her side. Kinzo, if he's dead (Pretty sure he is), likely died during this time, thus making the task of subverting the servants much easier as it seems like Natsuhi was a horrible boss and Krauss didn't pay any attention at all to them (Too busy losing everything on building resorts). By the time of the island conference, Shannon is gone. Most of the time it's just Beatrice wearing Shannon's face (Which is terrifying to think about, but that's Beatrice's MO). Following the murder plan wouldn't be too difficult at this point, since she has ample help from the servants and 1-2 members of the Ushiromiya family most episodes. A lot of Beatrice's psyche as an imaginary friend bleeds through in the episodes - we see her as the terrifying master of an army of fantastical entities...all of which used to be Shannon's friends that she likely abandoned. Beatrice took them for her own, and lead them on what was essentially a revolution of revenge against the Ushiromiya family. We all know what happens next, but I find it interesting that there's enough of Shannon that she can resist here (Though since this was written before the conference it's probably Shannon resisting Beatrice's gradual takeover). This isn't too surprising, as Beatrice did lend her independence and resolve in their bargain, and it's saddening to see Shannon try to stop the slow takeover of her mind and impending deaths of everyone else. It also shows how much Beatrice is resentful of Shannon for creating her and abandoning her in exchange for George, Jessica, and Kanon (Hence her bashing of love here...as an entity created on the other end of the emotional spectrum she would have only the most cynical understanding of it). Kanon assumedly at this point realizes his sister is almost gone and tries to stop the plan several times. He fails. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 15:19
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:All characters, past and future, never have and never will make a factually false statement using the red truth. I just want you all to appreciate the fact that the Discord has been debating the definition of the word "Factual" for like 3 hours because of this post. Umineko!
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 17:58
|
|
|
I still think that there's a possibility that Shannon is somehow a blood relative of the Ushiromiyas through one of the siblings. What if she and George are twins, and Eva put her up for adoption because she was the elder one? Maybe she fell in love with him before she realized her family connection to him. I recall a kind of disturbing story that I came across once about genetic sexual attraction, or the phenomenon where family members who were separated their whole lives run into each other and fall in love. (Sorry, kinkshaming again but  ) That would explain her rage, and also her willingness to murder her fiancee (and sleep in separate bedrooms on their trip away). Perhaps her personalities split so violently because she so desperately wishes to be someone else—if she were literally anyone else, she could be with the person she loves.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 18:30
|
|
|
Hidingo Kojimba posted:The Sumadera's are Kyrie's family. Presumably she'd be more likely to be foisted onto Krauss or Eva. Define interesting, because I really don't see how that would be anything other than a net gain for Maria. All of the other families are normative with two partners, which would make things already better, and they all have at least one child to pick up the slack and who already know Maria and don't really care about her weirdness. Natsuhi might be strict, but has already been portrayed as a loving mother who would be just as horrified at this situation as the rest of us, and while Eva might be a little more jagged about it at the conference, she's been implied to be a lot more normal in her day to day life, so I can't really imagine her being much worse. Kyrie... eh, that's a little trickier, as she's already kind of strained having to deal with one kid not hers in her life, but that homelife is portrayed as healthy as well and she already knows Ange. Plus, any of these families would probably have the sense to say, "Hey, maybe we should take Maria to someone for that speech tick, hey?" Of course, for any of this to happen, they would have to know about the details of Maria's home life (and it is implied that they don't), and Rosa would have to relinquish custody of Maria. And to get to either of these points, they would have to broach the subject of Maria's birth, which even rear end in a top hat Rosa won't do because it makes Rosa flip the gently caress out to even broach that subject. So, here we are.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 18:47
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:I still think that there's a possibility that Shannon is somehow a blood relative of the Ushiromiyas through one of the siblings. It's plausible, if only for the thematic appropriateness of it (That way the whole mystery becomes a big unhappy family affair rather than about an unrelated servant killing everyone). Still, I've read the episodes quite thoroughly and haven't read anything suggesting it. There's the part about Kinzo's mistress, and that drew my attention for a bit, but Rosa's recollection confirmed her death.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 18:56
|
|
|
Lycaeon posted:It's plausible, if only for the thematic appropriateness of it (That way the whole mystery becomes a big unhappy family affair rather than about an unrelated servant killing everyone). Still, I've read the episodes quite thoroughly and haven't read anything suggesting it. There's the part about Kinzo's mistress, and that drew my attention for a bit, but Rosa's recollection confirmed her death. Hmm. Did we ever get an age for Beatrice at the time of her death? What do you make of IRL Beatrice? resurgam40 posted:Define interesting, because I really don't see how that would be anything other than a net gain for Maria. I think they would probably kill her, resurgam40.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 19:07
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:Hmm. Did we ever get an age for Beatrice at the time of her death? What do you make of IRL Beatrice? Going back to the scene, she seems...very young and immature. It's really strange, and also puts Kinzo in an even more horrible light than he already was...it's like the rich person version of keeping someone locked in the basement. Edit: On second thought, if this Beatrice was Kinzo's mistress, maybe she could've given birth to a child before Rosa met her? There's nothing suggesting it in the scene, but I don't think the author added this scene for no reason. Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 19:18
|
|
|
Lycaeon posted:Going back to the scene, she seems...very young and immature. It's really strange, and also puts Kinzo in an even more horrible light than he already was...it's like the rich person version of keeping someone locked in the basement. I still don't know what to make of that scene; I think the reality of it, confirmed in red, makes the abusive connotations of it even more disturbing. If Beatrice was the person who gave Kinzo the ten tons of gold, who is the Beatrice who lived in Kuwadorian? I don't think there's any way they could possibly be the same person, given the latter's ignorance of her own background. Unless there is a memory loss thing going on, which... ugh. How does Kuwadorian Beatrice relate to the "predecessor" Beatrice embodied by Kumasawa? And how do all of those Beatrices relate to Shannon? edit: didn't see your edit! Kuwadorian Beatrice seems too naive to have had an adult relationship with Kinzo, doesn't she? Didn't she say she thought of him as a grandfather or father?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 19:32
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:I still don't know what to make of that scene; I think the reality of it, confirmed in red, makes the abusive connotations of it even more disturbing. If Beatrice was the person who gave Kinzo the ten tons of gold, who is the Beatrice who lived in Kuwadorian? I don't think there's any way they could possibly be the same person, given the latter's ignorance of her own background. Unless there is a memory loss thing going on, which... ugh. How does Kuwadorian Beatrice relate to the "predecessor" Beatrice embodied by Kumasawa? And how do all of those Beatrices relate to Shannon? Edit: The father thing does make the adult relationship unlikely, but all the more terrifying if it was. I've read cases of evil, evil men intentionally raising young girls for...horrifying purposes. And from what we've seen of Kinzo... Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Feb 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 19:41
|
|
|
Here's a thought, instead of Beatrice being a split personality of Shannon, what if Shannon's been dead the whole time, with Beatrice replacing her? Recall that the statement says There are no more than 18 humans on this Rokkenjima.. Not 18 exactly, no more than 18. And Battler never asked if that referred to living people or dead ones. It would mean that Beatrice could be part of the 18 possible people regardless of whether Kinzo is dead or alive. And it would mean that Eva-Beatrice's web of Red statements could be shattered if Beatrice was alive up until the end. Edit: Tender Child Loins posted:Though Lycaeon's theory does make me feel even more that Umineko is basically anime Twin Peaks.  SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 19:48
|
|
|
I guess there's a possibility that, after Beatrice 1 died, Kinzo found an orphan that kind of looked like her at Fukuin House and raised her to be Beatrice. It doesn't have to be incest, right?  Just... borderline pedophilia...  Though Lycaeon's theory does make me feel even more that Umineko is basically anime Twin Peaks. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 19:49
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:I guess there's a possibility that, after Beatrice 1 died, Kinzo found an orphan that kind of looked like her at Fukuin House and raised her to be Beatrice. It doesn't have to be incest, right? Oh my god. That's actually horrifying. And plausible.  Edit: The Beatrice Rosa sees may have been an orphan from the Fukuin House who looked just like Beatrice so Kinzo took and raised her personally on the island. 
Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 19:54
|
|
|
Doubly sad that Kinzo gave this child all the love that he denied his real kids and grandkids. Though I suppose not getting impregnated by their father is a decent tradeoff? Aiya, what did I just type out?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 20:03
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:Doubly sad that Kinzo gave this child all the love that he denied his real kids and grandkids. Though I suppose not getting impregnated by their father is a decent tradeoff? Aiya, what did I just type out? No, if you're suggesting what I think you're suggesting, I don't think Rosa's Beatrice was Kinzo's daughter. Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Feb 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 20:08
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:Doubly sad that Kinzo gave this child all the love that he denied his real kids and grandkids. Though I suppose not getting impregnated by their father is a decent tradeoff? Aiya, what did I just type out? "Oh hey a bunch of new posts, wonder what the newbies are up to....oh. Oh.  "
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 20:12
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:Doubly sad that Kinzo gave this child all the love that he denied his real kids and grandkids. Though I suppose not getting impregnated by their father is a decent tradeoff? Aiya, what did I just type out? oath2order posted:"Oh hey a bunch of new posts, wonder what the newbies are up to....oh. Oh.  It's plausible isn't it? Edit: Okay, so we have Rosa's Beatrice that Kinzo likely kept locked up in Kuwadorian from a young age. She had to have come from somewhere, probably the orphan house/servant mill Kinzo keeps around for disturbing reasons. And there is also the unlikely possibility that she's Kinzo's daughter. There could be very few reasons why a complete rear end in a top hat of an old man like Kinzo would keep around a young girl locked in a hidden luxury mansion and call her the name of his lost love who he obsesses over. And I don't want to think about any of those reasons.
Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 20:16
|
|
|
oath2order posted:"Oh hey a bunch of new posts, wonder what the newbies are up to....oh. Oh.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 20:29
|
|
|
Lycaeon posted:No, if you're suggesting what I think you're suggesting, I don't think Rosa's Beatrice was Kinzo's daughter. He would've been much more caring and respectful of her if that was the case, despite him being the gigantic rear end in a top hat that he is. She doesn't even call him father here, she just thinks of him like a father. It's far more likely she was an orphan from the Fukuin house. Would there have been much of a difference for her? She literally didn't speak to anyone besides Kinzo and her servants (who were paid off by Kinzo). He kept her hostage and could have shaped her reality however he wanted. oath2order posted:"Oh hey a bunch of new posts, wonder what the newbies are up to....oh. Oh. Please tell me I out-crazied Umineko. I don't want to be right.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 20:31
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:Would there have been much of a difference for her? She literally didn't speak to anyone besides Kinzo and her servants (who were paid off by Kinzo). He kept her hostage and could have shaped her reality however he wanted. Yes, there would be a difference. One would *only* be terrifying rich old man creepy. The other would be *unthinkably evil and insane old man who's also creepy and terrifying*. Let's not think about that and go to the possibility that he...oh god I don't want to think about that either.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 20:35
|
|
|
Lycaeon posted:Yes, there would be a difference. One would *only* be terrifying rich old man creepy. The other would be *unthinkably evil and insane old man who's also creepy and terrifying*. Don't stop thinking! But let's move on to Shannon. If Shannon is Beatrice's daughter, it would make so much sense for her to try to fill in the blanks as much as possible, propping up the witch legend along the way. She never knew her mother, and her father was a disgusting garbage fire of a human being. Of course she would imagine her as everything that she herself couldn't be, and of course she would ask Beatrice for advice and put all of her worries and anxieties onto her. Since she never knew her mother as a real, complex person, she could never grow out of that phase that all kids have, when they think their parents are superhuman beings. No wonder Kanon both disapproves of and indulges her fantasy. He can probably relate. But that also leads to more questions. Why is she a servant at Rokkenjima anyway? Did Kinzo not know that Beatrice 2 got pregnant? witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 20:41
|
|
|
Okay...okay. So Rosa's Beatrice may have been a young girl that Kinzo raised as a surrogate Beatrice. He would then...take that to the foreseen conclusion...and a child would result. Some time afterwards Rosa happens upon the Beatrice and accidentally kills her. That child could be Shannon. *deep breath in* *deep breath out* Tender Child Loins posted:Don't stop thinking! Thinking now.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 20:43
|
|
|
oath2order posted:"Oh hey a bunch of new posts, wonder what the newbies are up to....oh. Oh.  I mean I feel like this every morning, but this is of a different caliber.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 20:44
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:Don't stop thinking! I don't think she knew she was Kinzo's daughter. She likely thought she was an orphan just like all the other orphans at the horror mill. Through random happenstance or fate she was chosen as a servant for the Ushiromiya household and probably figured out the rest there. Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Feb 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 20:49
|
|
|
Or. Or. Shannon is not Beatrice, Beatrice is a completely separate person, and Shannon's been dead all along instead of/along with Kinzo. Then we don't have to keep talking about all of this creepy pedophillia business. Eh? Eh? Eh? SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 20:49
|
|
|
 YAMI WO KIRISAKU OH DESIRE
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 21:03
|
|
|
alcharagia posted:
Tender Child, I think we might be right. And I don't want to be right. I don't want to be right. Edit: If Shannon somehow found out she was actually an Ushiromiya it would've made her resentment and frustration over being mistreated explode. It would be the loneliest possible experience in the world - being alone and abused by people who are supposed to be your family. Serving people who are supposed to be your family. Her alter ego Beatrice's malice would've skyrocketed. Beatrice would've had more than enough cause to murder everyone on the island. She would've been absolutely vicious. Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 21:05
|
|
|
Lycaeon posted:
Don't forget the whole "dating someone who's supposed to be your family" thing with George you mentioned earlier. Do we really wanna go there on top of everything else?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 21:16
|
|
|
Lycaeon posted:Edit: If Shannon somehow found out she was actually an Ushiromiya it would've made her resentment and frustration over being mistreated explode. It would be the loneliest possible experience in the world - being alone and abused by people who are supposed to be your family. Serving people who are supposed to be your family. Her alter ego Beatrice's malice would've skyrocketed. Yeah, that's pretty bad. It also might explain why she went so far as to kill herself in E2.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 22:05
|
|
|
Rune Full Moon posted:Don't forget the whole "dating someone who's supposed to be your family" thing with George you mentioned earlier. Do we really wanna go there on top of everything else? Tender Child Loins posted:Yeah, that's pretty bad. It also might explain why she went so far as to kill herself in E2. Okay, so, quick summary then. Kinzo, who Nefarious and horrible things happen. Rosa's Beatrice gives birth to Shannon and Kinzo sends her off to Edit: He just was so much of an rear end in a top hat he made all of his children assholes too. Rosa finds Rosa's Beatrice and inadvertently gets her killed. Some time later, when Shannon is older, Kinzo sends back for her (DO NOT THINK ABOUT ANY MORE NEFARIOUS REASONS HERE. DO NOT. )Shannon works in the Ushiromiya house and is horribly mistreated by her masters. Lonely and miserable, she makes imaginary friend Beatrice, pouring her sadness into her. Shannon eventually finds out she's also an Ushiromiya. Negativity and frustration go to 100, as she's starting to realize that the people responsible for her life long misery were her actual family. Beatrice becomes real here, fueled by Shannon's torment. She's absolutely malicious and evil, about as much as you'd expect from a being created from pure negative emotion, but she can't do anything yet but sulk. Around this time Shannon falls in love with George. But at the same time realizes that she can't marry George because they're related. Negativity and frustration go to 1000. Beatrice reappears, empowered by Shannon's overwhelming anguish, and offers Shannon the devil's bargain of being able to give her George and love anyways in exchange for breaking the spirit mirror and letting Beatrice take over the island. Shannon agrees, but doesn't realize that this bargain lets Beatrice take over her (Which ironically allows Beatrice to pursue the agreed goal of taking over the island). Beatrice gradually takes over Shannon, gets Shannon and George together, and spends the rest of the time plotting the Ushiromiya family's downfall. She murders Beatrice then goes on her killing spree. Edit: Editing to make
Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Feb 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 23:37
|
|
|
Edit: Nvm. I just think it's more likely Shannon's been dead this whole time than having a split personality.
SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Feb 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2017 00:57
|
|
|
I hope to GOD that Beatrice secretly murdered Kinzo before the conference. That bastard monster rear end in a top hat deserved it.  I hope she made it as painful as possible. Maybe she even burned him alive. I can only hope. Yes, this should do nicely. Edit to below: If that's true then it only adds fuel to the son of a bitch's bonfire. Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Feb 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2017 02:29
|
|
|
Lycaeon posted:... There might be a reason for this that's less awful than you fear. Consider how a hypothetical Sayo discovering her relationship with a disgustingly wealthy sack of poo poo could impact the already-difficult problem of the Ushiromiya inheritance. Kinzo may simply have been tying up what he saw as a loose end by making sure the child was under his control and not introduced to any wild notions about her own origins.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2017 03:11
|
|
|
ModernMajorGeneral posted:I'm only making assumptions here, but people saying "nobody does anything about Rosa's mistreatment because 1980s Japan" doesn't quite make sense to me. In a conservative, traditional, family-oriented society, you would definitely expect authorities to be likely to turn a blind eye to abuse within larger families, but not single mothers. You forgot "incredibly sexist and honor-oriented". A single mother is, by definition, A Failure As A Woman since she does not have a husband, but does have children. Raising those children she has is her sole responsibility - and hers alone. If anyone steps in to assist her, she becomes Even More Of A Failure. Meanwhile, caring for children is Not A Man's Job, so the gross negligence we see with Kinzo is perfectly glossed over. There's a lot of  garbage at play underneath those traditional, conservative values.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2017 03:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 09:25 |
|
|
Two questions from the veterans, just because I want to make sure: Is there enough presented evidence up to this point to solve either/both A) The Murders B) The Epitath I'm just curious, because while there's lots of speculation, I feel like I don't have enough information to do anything than pick a pet theory and guess. I'm sure at the end I'll slap my head and go "of course" like the Watson I am, but I'm curious how early someone could click to the solution.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2017 03:48
|
|
