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Crowsbeak posted:I just tell it as it is. Also competent people don't have private email servers going against protocals and know that if they need hispanic voters they campaign for their votes, and that states with republican governors you want to go for you should probably be campaigned in. Rather then just attending fundraisers in Hollywood. Also I tell it as it is. As Jefferson Clay was wmore ththen happy to throw black and hispanic males under the bus because Abuela lost. You defended him. So there is also that. Really its just sad you guys try to pretend you have a ounce of empathy in you. All you want are cheap iphones. This still never happened. Stop lying about people crowsbeak you motherfucking liar.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:02
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:you see NAFTA killed jobs which is why job losses didn't start until GWB's inauguration
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Feb 15, 2017 19:02
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i think all this overwrought shouting about the most boring position in the entire party would be put to better use in forming some kind of political trudgecore band
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Feb 15, 2017 19:02
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JeffersonClay posted:Perez isn't a centrist. The 2016 democratic platform is not centrist. The positions articulated by Perez and the 2016 platform are not electoral liabilities, and there's zero evidence democrats would benefit from shifting further left. Your "give me exactly what I want or I'll throw a tantrum" strategy got you nothing but Trump in 2016 and will get you exactly the same if you try it again. But that doesn't matter to the Bernout crew, not really. They aren't arguing in good faith. They want "their guy" to win because their guy lost last year and they want their pound of flesh as bloody vengeance. Plus compromise and pragmatism don't get them that sweet, sweet moral indignation high, which is the only reason why they're into politics. And if all this means tanking the party and letting the fascists win, great. When you win you have to do things, you don't just get to snipe anymore, which would take all the fun out of this.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:02
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Your "get exactly what you want or else you will throw a tantrum" strategy didnt work in 2016 so you better give me exactly what i want or else i will throw a tantrum
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Feb 15, 2017 19:03
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TPP members: Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, and Vietnam. We currently have FTA with Australia, Canada, Chile, Mexico, Peru and Singapore. Our tariff rates on Brunei, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand and Vietnam are on the order of like 3% outside of certain goods (e.g., chicken tax on Japanese light trucks) Like sure I get the "what's the benefit to American workers to get them to sign on" but the idea that our trade agreements killed jobs doesn't make sense
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Feb 15, 2017 19:04
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JeffersonClay posted:Perez isn't a centrist. The 2016 democratic platform is not centrist. The positions articulated by Perez and the 2016 platform are not electoral liabilities, and there's zero evidence democrats would benefit from shifting further left. Your "give me exactly what I want or I'll throw a tantrum" strategy got you nothing but Trump in 2016 and will get you exactly the same if you try it again. I disagree with the notion that moving left wouldn't be helpful. There's a huge desire for more from both Sanders supporters and groups like BLM. How much more left is up for debate, given the conservatism of the electorate in general, but I think the problem is one of marketing left policies, more so than left policies not being popular.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:04
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Lightning Knight posted:You should be able to acknowledge that trade deals we have historically made were bad without being opposed to the idea of trade deals in principle. We should, but considering said deals were bipartisan we really can't trust the dems to institute a good one.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:05
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*bangs furiously on lovely guitar* dwwwwaaaaauuugughhhhh bernie would have wooooooooooon whooaaaaaarrrrrggghhhh *ten minute drum solo*
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Feb 15, 2017 19:05
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah now I want you to go to Indiana and Ohio and tell everyone there that Nafta made their life better. yes I agree there's been a longstanding misinformation campaign deflecting blame for job losses from capitalists to foreigners
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Feb 15, 2017 19:06
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Condiv posted:We should, but considering said deals were bipartisan we really can't trust the dems to institute a good one. I mean in principle, you can't trust any of the ruling class with anything. Politics is about strategy and alliances of convenience, not trust or ideological purity. That may not be how should be, but it is how it is. I think that good trade deals is the best way for us to crack down on poo poo labor and environmental standards abroad. The problem is turning deals like TPP into that instead of geopolitical chess pieces and corporate hand outs.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:06
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:yes I agree there's been a longstanding misinformation campaign deflecting blame for job losses from capitalists to foreigners who do you think is sponsoring and structuring these trade deals? capitalists, through one of their two political arms (the Democratic party)
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Feb 15, 2017 19:07
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:TPP members: Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, and Vietnam. It does http://www.epi.org/blog/naftas-impact-workers/
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Feb 15, 2017 19:07
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Nevvy Z posted:This still never happened. Stop lying about people crowsbeak you motherfucking liar. Both of you know it happened. I will not apologize for telling it as it is. The fact both of you celebrate so many American workers living in miserably is almost as bad to the fact you're both very happy to throw Minority males under the bus. Ogmius815 posted:But that doesn't matter to the Bernout crew, not really. They aren't arguing in good faith. They want "their guy" to win because their guy lost last year and they want their pound of flesh as bloody vengeance. Plus compromise and pragmatism don't get them that sweet, sweet moral indignation high, which is the only reason why they're into politics. WhiskeyJuvenile posted:yes I agree there's been a longstanding misinformation campaign deflecting blame for job losses from capitalists to foreigners Would you actually do it though?
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Feb 15, 2017 19:07
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Fiction posted:Did you accidentally sarcastically make the good point that big unions haven't had workers' best interest at heart for a decent while? Keep following that logic, you're almost there! Hell yes, destroy the loving unions, especially the least white ones. I bet you've never even interacted with a union worker, Hillarybaby.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:08
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Crowsbeak posted:The fact both of you celebrate so many American workers living in miserably is almost as bad to the fact you're both very happy to throw Minority males under the bus. Citation needed you motherfucking liar.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:09
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:TPP members: Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, and Vietnam. Entrenching really lovely intellectual property laws and establishing establishing those terrible Invest State Dispute Settlement provisions were far greater sins of the TPP than any impact on jobs.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:10
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Like it says something that at this point I genuinely hope that Keith Ellison does win just so you goddamn babies will shut the gently caress up and get back to the work of saving this country from fascism. You know why I won't care that much? Because Tom Perez and Keith Ellison's platforms are pretty much the same loving thing god drat it. But Parez is going to win and all I'm doing is begging you, pleading, please don't blow up the only real opposition to Trumpism because the most liberal DNC chair ever got elected just because you'd have preferred a different highly liberal DNC chair. Please.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:10
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Brainiac Five posted:Hell yes, destroy the loving unions, especially the least white ones. Did you read that story about the union members who expressed dissatisfaction with the way their leaders handled politics and ended up defecting to Trump of all people? Obviously only a specific subset of (white) union members would be doing that but it certainly does not bode well for how the structure is performing as a whole.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:10
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I remember when traitorous neoliberalism deluded people into thinking NAFTA was imperial extraction from the Mexican economy, but I'm glad we all agree that the USA is in fact the victim of imperialism from international predators like Vietnam and Malaysia, itching to steal our jobs and have sex with us to pollute our bodies.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:11
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Crowbeak what makes you think you can get away with this shameless libel and slander?
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Feb 15, 2017 19:11
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"workers being angry at being thrown to the wolves of global neoliberal policy is racism's fault"
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Feb 15, 2017 19:12
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Fiction posted:Did you accidentally sarcastically make the good point that big unions haven't had workers' best interest at heart for a decent while? Keep following that logic, you're almost there! Service Employees International Union. Service employees don't benefit at all from more manufacturing jobs or better wages in manufacturing jobs, and so are unambiguously harmed by higher prices that inevitably result from protectionism. Most workers, and most unionized workers, don't work in manufacturing. Stop making GBS threads on unions because you don't understand economics.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:12
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Fiction posted:Did you read that story about the union members who expressed dissatisfaction with the way their leaders handled politics and ended up defecting to Trump of all people? God drat the United Steel Workers for not brainwashing their members and/or catering to racists.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:12
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Crowsbeak posted:Which Abuela didn't do. Oh man now I'm beat. I'm totally seeing with new eyes now. For sure.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:12
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Nevvy Z posted:Citation needed you motherfucking liar. Yeah you know what I am talking about you defending Jefferson after he blamed lowerclass black and hispanic males for Abuelas lost. On the trade front. I don't see you condemning Jefferson Clay's positions in the economic crises thread. Also I see that Jefferson now is asserting again that all of us Bernie supporters who voted HRC in the election are traitors. So once again you both lie through your teeth. Which is fitting for centrists. Ogmius815 posted:Oh man now I'm beat. I'm totally seeing with new eyes now. For sure. Hey its true. She spent all her time at fundraisers rather then doing the hard part. You know actually going to cities and towns and hanging out with the locals. Now Sanders, Webb, and even that snake Carcetti did that. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 15, 2017 19:13
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Fiction posted:"workers being angry at being thrown to the wolves of global neoliberal policy is racism's fault" No, but a lot of white workers do blame their problems on the poor of foreign countries instead of the rich of this country. We have to fix that.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:14
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Helsing posted:Entrenching really lovely intellectual property laws and establishing establishing those terrible Invest State Dispute Settlement provisions were far greater sins of the TPP than any impact on jobs. Sure but like defending Malaysian workers isn't really a "protect American workers" program
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Feb 15, 2017 19:14
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Brainiac Five posted:God drat the United Steel Workers for not brainwashing their members and/or catering to racists. no, god drat their elected leaders for colluding with capitalist interests in the democratic party to make their members' lives worse.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:14
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Alter Ego posted:Because Dayton might not run again? He has prostate cancer. Fair enough, but from the way he talked about replacing Dayton with Ellison as if it represented some major change, I thought he was saying Dayton was an establishment centrist.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:15
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean in principle, you can't trust any of the ruling class with anything. Politics is about strategy and alliances of convenience, not trust or ideological purity. That may not be how should be, but it is how it is. You've got it backwards. In a good political system, trust wouldn't be necessary because the elites couldn't just abuse the system to their advantage. Unfortunately, the US' is breaking down to the point where we have a fascist everyone hates in power, and he's ignoring multiple important laws and not really being punished. In such a situation, trust is important again. I agree we could have nafta like free trade deals, but the problem is the elites would rather play geopolitical chess than pass good policy. They are passing policy that helps them and their friends at the expense of everyone else.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:15
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Fiction posted:no, god drat their elected leaders for colluding with capitalist interests in the democratic party to make their members' lives worse. So unions which didn't endorse Barnie Samblers must die for colluding with capitalism. Uh huh.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:16
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Condiv posted:You've got it backwards. In a good political system, trust wouldn't be necessary because the elites couldn't just abuse the system to their advantage. Unfortunately, the US' is breaking down to the point where we have a fascist everyone hates in power, and he's ignoring multiple important laws and not really being punished. In such a situation, trust is important again. Well, yeah. This is late stage capitalism. Marx was right, his timeline was just off. The problem is how we survive the transition. Between global warming and the resurgence of fascism in the face of disorganized leftist and liberal opposition, I am not optimistic.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:17
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Brainiac Five posted:So unions which didn't endorse Barnie Samblers must die for colluding with capitalism. Uh huh. nope, just the union leaders who sell out their constituents. has nothing to do with bernie and everything to do with the democrats' embrace of free-market global economics and the long term effect of them abandoning organized labor in the first place as a reaction to the Southern Strategy.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:18
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Main Paineframe posted:Fair enough, but from the way he talked about replacing Dayton with Ellison as if it represented some major change, I thought he was saying Dayton was an establishment centrist. No I was saying keep any of the more centrist Dems in the legislator from being on the ticket with someone who would continue and expand on Dayton's generally good legacy. All I said is I would work for him in running for governor. If I had meant primary Dayton I would have said primary Dayton. I wouldn't primary the guy who looks like my highschool chemistry teacher, and I had a nice conversation with when I interned at the capital ever. Lightning Knight posted:Well, yeah. This is late stage capitalism. Marx was right, his timeline was just off. We can, but that means we have to organize now. Also might be a good time to invest in self defense. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Feb 15, 2017 |
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Feb 15, 2017 19:19
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Sure but like defending Malaysian workers isn't really a "protect American workers" program I'm not really clear on what you're trying to say here but not wanting to cede political power to ISDS tribunals seems like a rational and intelligent position for labour unions.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:20
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Fiction posted:nope, just the union leaders who sell out their constituents. has nothing to do with bernie and everything to do with the democrats' embrace of free-market global economics and the long term effect of them abandoning organized labor in the first place as a reaction to the Southern Strategy. Organized (white) labor abandoned the Democrats dogg. Every union bar the IWW has colluded with capitalism, and I can't actually think of any that has endorsed trade deals, so this is just a nonsequitur to build a basis for later witch hunts against unions that "betrayed" the Bernie-Ellison Complex.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:21
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the SEIU was heavily involved with the March for 15 so its kind of weird to accuse them of being collaborators just because they endorsed a different candidate
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Feb 15, 2017 19:21
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tsa posted:Well this is just laughable nonsense, did you work for the Hilary data team lmbo you can, you know, give some evidence to refute me if u want
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Feb 15, 2017 19:22
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The UWUA had plenty of documentation about TPP up at the nuke plant, but they didn't endorse Comrade La Riva so they must be destroyed.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:23
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