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Ultramega posted:I'm guessing this is going to mean israel eventually absorbing west bank residents and giving them a veneer of citizenship because there's no way in hell they're going to get away with straight-up ethnic cleansing via massive deportation without worldwide condemnation. Would be one hell of a way for Trump and Netanyahu to destract from their respective crises though!
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Feb 15, 2017 21:44
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Ultramega posted:I'm guessing this is going to mean israel eventually absorbing west bank residents and giving them a veneer of citizenship because there's no way in hell they're going to get away with straight-up ethnic cleansing via massive deportation without worldwide condemnation. Just in case anyone needs a refresh: http://imgur.com/gallery/L86hXg4 Of course granting even this level of citizenship would be unacceptable for Israel, since that would mean that a rough 50% of the officially counted citizens (despite their inferior position) would be Arabs and even limited participation in voting would make the most popular Arab party by far the largest one, leading into eventual removal of Israel as an apartheid state (which it at the moment is, with or without West Bank which currently is an Israeli colony). Any Arab from the West Bank would be given some sort of Bantustan-level subject attribution at best, not really different from their current one. But having it put in official law/writing would certainly help the South Africa-kind resolution that will end this conflict somewhere along the time any sort of influential demographic outside Israel that actually likes Israel (meaning Baby Boomers in America and literally nobody else) are going to be dead. Which is why I probably alone in this thread will view the death of two-state solution as a good thing, no matter how it is achieved. Israel isn't going to change until the world forces it to change and when the world (read = USA) forces it to change the two-state solution will be impossible in every way. This is just a fact and anything else is just hopeful thinking. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Feb 15, 2017 |
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Feb 15, 2017 22:02
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Re-posting from the Trump thread, wanted to ask here too... Let me get this straight. What Israel is saying about the Palestinian problem right now is that Israel should continue reigning on the parts of Palestine they have conquered...forever? So, what are the Palestinians to do? Join Israel as second rate citizens? I don't get it. Isn't that pretty much the status quo right now? I mean, not in label terms (as BiBi said), but in essence. The only change would be that the Palestinians would have to officially acknowledge their overlords (the first per-requisite, as he said).
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Feb 15, 2017 22:42
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Dante80 posted:The only change would be that the Palestinians would have to officially acknowledge their overlords (the first per-requisite, as he said). It would also force the rest of the West to acknowledge that Israel actually is an apartheid state. Since you know, they couldn't keep pretending that they were getting their own state, as opposed to the bantustans that the West built for them. Which is a positive, since resolving a conflict actually demands that you acknowledge the conflict exists in the first place.
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Feb 15, 2017 22:49
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Dante80 posted:Re-posting from the Trump thread, wanted to ask here too... Neither Israel nor the PA want one state. It's a non-starter as a permanent solution. Yeah, Palestinians certainly have things imposed upon them by Israel, but they still have some degree of sovereignty that distinguishes them from Israel, and they don't want to give that up. Right now Israel is just going to keep building settlements, and pushing Palestinians further and further into the corner, as population wise, the Palestinians would have far more influence in a true one state democracy than Israel are comfortable with. Unfortunately the only alternate is a two state solution, and Israel will never agree to that willingly because it would necessitate that Israel would have to recognize Palestinian sovereignty in areas that they currently don't, which would undermine their efforts to create a massive Jewish majority throughout Israel and the Palestinian territories.
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Feb 15, 2017 22:51
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Dante80 posted:Re-posting from the Trump thread, wanted to ask here too... Netanyahu's ideal solution is a Palestinian state that concedes so many aspects of its autonomy to Israel (in the name of "security assurances") that it's essentially indistinguishable from the current West Bank status quo, except that as part of this fantastic and compelling deal, the Palestinians would agree to relinquish all pre-deal claims and grievances against Israel. The end result would be comparable to the South African bantustans, which were formed to deprive South African blacks of their citizenship while still keeping them under overall South African control.
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Feb 15, 2017 23:10
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if, through settlement expansions and related increases in the settler population, road construction, security walls, land confiscation and other measures, netanyahu in fact does create "facts on the ground" that irreversibly undermine a two state solution; and if what is therefore left is a unitary state with, in effect, ghettoes, then, in that event, how long can the state of israel really expect to be sustained in its current configuration? forever? for a century? less? even with modern arms, it just doesn't seem intuitively likely that an equal or greater population group within a unitary state can be subjugated indefinitely. and assuming the inherent instability in that situation eventually (even if after a century or more) resolves itself into equalization of voting rights or other fundamental rebalancing, then, by pressing for this outcome (irreversible facts on the ground), its proponents would have ultimately and fundamentally undermined the goal they purport to be seeking even based on their stated goals, i just dont understand the long term strategy / interest they think they are furthering. do they think "yes, in fact we can do this forever"? do they contemplate actual expulsion or some other "final solution"?
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Feb 16, 2017 00:40
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Turns out that the right wing, no matter the country, is not big on long term solutions. Personally I blame all the lead that was around when most of them were growing up 
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Feb 16, 2017 01:19
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Friedman is undergoing his confirmation hearing in front of the Foreign Relations Committee for the Israeli ambassadorship right now. Seems likely he'll skate through with few problems. He's saying all the right things for this crowd. He regrets and apologizes for any offensive comments he might have made and said they were just motivated by deep concern for Israel, and he talked positively about the two-state solution while saying that if it doesn't work it would be entirely Palestinians' fault. He's gonna get confirmed, hail Satan
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Feb 16, 2017 16:52
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Main Paineframe posted:Friedman is undergoing his confirmation hearing in front of the Foreign Relations Committee for the Israeli ambassadorship right now. Seems likely he'll skate through with few problems. He's saying all the right things for this crowd. He regrets and apologizes for any offensive comments he might have made and said they were just motivated by deep concern for Israel, and he talked positively about the two-state solution while saying that if it doesn't work it would be entirely Palestinians' fault. He's gonna get confirmed, hail Satan Now I'm not some big city diplomat, but isn't an ambassador supposed to be motivated by a deep concern for their own country, whose interests they are going abroad to represent? Did he get any questions of that nature?
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Feb 17, 2017 01:18
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The confirmation hearing, in a nutshell: https://twitter.com/AllisonKSommer/status/832281208004497408 https://twitter.com/MaltzJudy/status/832283885379665924 https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/832286877642272768 Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 03:53
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Main Paineframe posted:The confirmation hearing, in a nutshell: 
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Feb 17, 2017 03:55
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I don't get the impression there were any particularly useful answers. The Dems grilled him while the Republicans (and Lieberman) threw softballs, but given that he apparently swapped places with his mirror universe self before entering the hearing, it's hard to say whether there was really any point to the whole thing. I guess it demonstrated that he's at least capable of enduring questions and lying cleanly without falling apart like some of the other nominees did. He managed to handle some decent questioning without falling apart. For example, he was asked about all the money he spends on Beit El, and responded that just because he gives money to their schools and stuff doesn't mean he endorses their ideology. I expect his nomination to slide through cleanly, with Republicans, Lieberman, and a few Dems voting for him.
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Feb 17, 2017 04:04
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Main Paineframe posted:I don't get the impression there were any particularly useful answers. The Dems grilled him while the Republicans (and Lieberman) threw softballs, but given that he apparently swapped places with his mirror universe self before entering the hearing, it's hard to say whether there was really any point to the whole thing. I guess it demonstrated that he's at least capable of enduring questions and lying cleanly without falling apart like some of the other nominees did. He managed to handle some decent questioning without falling apart. For example, he was asked about all the money he spends on Beit El, and responded that just because he gives money to their schools and stuff doesn't mean he endorses their ideology. I expect his nomination to slide through cleanly, with Republicans, Lieberman, and a few Dems voting for him. How/why is Lieberman even involved?
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Feb 17, 2017 06:31
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xrunner posted:How/why is Lieberman even involved? Oh, I saw that he was at the hearing and forgot he isn't a senator anymore. Apparently he was invited as a "character witness" for Friedman, and (naturally) wholeheartedly endorsed him before the committee.
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Feb 17, 2017 06:52
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Main Paineframe posted:I don't get the impression there were any particularly useful answers. The Dems grilled him while the Republicans (and Lieberman) threw softballs, but given that he apparently swapped places with his mirror universe self before entering the hearing, it's hard to say whether there was really any point to the whole thing. I guess it demonstrated that he's at least capable of enduring questions and lying cleanly without falling apart like some of the other nominees did. He managed to handle some decent questioning without falling apart. For example, he was asked about all the money he spends on Beit El, and responded that just because he gives money to their schools and stuff doesn't mean he endorses their ideology. I expect his nomination to slide through cleanly, with Republicans, Lieberman, and a few Dems voting for him. I give them money because I want nothing to do with their ideology? How did that even go down? Is everyone at that hearing completely useless?
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Feb 17, 2017 14:09
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He could have said he was there to do the Devil's Work and he would have had all of the Republican committee votes
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Feb 17, 2017 14:52
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Miftan posted:I give them money because I want nothing to do with their ideology? How did that even go down? Is everyone at that hearing completely useless? It's a Congressional hearing, so yes. It's not really a good place to dish out quick burns; the questioner did one follow-up question and then it moved on to the next person. The exact wording of that exchange is as follows: quote:Senator Markey: I know this terrain has already been traveled in the hearing, but if I could, I would like to go out and talk a little bit about the Beit El settlement, and some of the comments from the people out there. Beit El is training students to "successfully delegitimize the notion of a two state solution and creating facts on the ground in the face of the international community's desire to uproot us". Can you talk about comments like that coming out of the Beit El community in Ramallah? And your views on those comments in terms of the implications for reaching a two-state solution? Not really believable, but a solid enough lie that there was no point in grilling him further unless they had a real zinger waiting in the wings, because he'd just repeat "My philanthropic activity there has not been connected to their political activity which I had no part in" in response to any further questioning on that line. The full recording and transcript of the confirmation hearing can be found here on C-SPAN, but it's two hours and forty-five minutes long and the transcript is awful, so I mostly worked from Haaretz's summary and livetweet yesterday.
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Feb 17, 2017 15:44
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After seeing pictures of david friedman i refuse to believe he is capable of walking more than like 10 paces before he has to sit down so imagining this fat rear end in a top hat visiting the wailing wall/totally legitimate and not in any way facistic settlement in a rascal is pretty funny.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:33
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Miftan posted:I give them money because I want nothing to do with their ideology? How did that even go down? Is everyone at that hearing completely useless? Goons apparently really love the idea of punching nazis yet they still support the aclu, which defends punched nazis, so I guess it isn't impossible. Ultramega posted:After seeing pictures of david friedman i refuse to believe he is capable of walking more than like 10 paces before he has to sit down so imagining this fat rear end in a top hat visiting the wailing wall/totally legitimate and not in any way facistic settlement in a rascal is pretty funny. Uh the dudes got some extra weight but isn't even remotely close to what you are talking about?? Also maybe don't fat shame, even when it's people you don't like?? TROIKA CURES GREEK fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 19:07
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Goons apparently really love the idea of punching nazis yet they still support the aclu, which defends punched nazis, so I guess it isn't impossible. Good thing you're not a goon, otherwise you'd be a huge hypocrite
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Feb 17, 2017 22:23
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4925261,00.html Elor Azaria has been sentenced to 18 months in prison, 12 months of probation and has been demoted to the rank of private.
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Feb 21, 2017 12:13
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I know this gets asked like every other month but is there any realistic peace plan currently being floated? The left/centre of Israeli politics (at least those who identify as such in discussions) are simultaneously enthusiastic about a 2 state solution as the best one and also are either unwilling themselves to accept or think it's unrealistic for the Israeli population to accept the kind of basic concessions that a realistic 2 state solution would require (e.g. allowing East Jerusalem as a capital, removal of large scale settlements in Palestinian land or granting of even basic sovereignty to a Palestinian state like border controls). Palestinians who support a 2 state solution meanwhile seem near universally pessimistic about it ever happening. I understand a 1 state solution is pretty much only something that those outside of Israel/Palestine support. Among Israelis it's out because it would mean Israel no longer being an ethnically defined state (in fairness to Israel they're somewhat ahead of the gulf states in this kind of racist definition of citizenship as there is at least a possibility of citizenship through conversion currently). Among Palestinians it's unpopular because it is seen by many as an acceptance of 'victory' by Israel and a joining with the oppressor (it also has big issues in terms of Palestinian refugees in other countries). What would it take to actually break the status quo? I mean outside of genocide or the Israeli right finally deciding to just engage in mass ethnic cleansing?
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Feb 21, 2017 21:57
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MrNemo posted:I know this gets asked like every other month but is there any realistic peace plan currently being floated? The left/centre of Israeli politics (at least those who identify as such in discussions) are simultaneously enthusiastic about a 2 state solution as the best one and also are either unwilling themselves to accept or think it's unrealistic for the Israeli population to accept the kind of basic concessions that a realistic 2 state solution would require (e.g. allowing East Jerusalem as a capital, removal of large scale settlements in Palestinian land or granting of even basic sovereignty to a Palestinian state like border controls). Palestinians who support a 2 state solution meanwhile seem near universally pessimistic about it ever happening. There is no such thing as a realistic peace plan right now, because the increasingly right-wing Israeli government will not accept either a one-state solution or a true two-state solution. Israeli efforts are largely paralyzed by its own failure to rein in extreme right-wing institutions and organizations, as well as the coalition's increasing reliance on allying with the far-right to battle against the left. The status quo right now is just an uneasy compromise being maintained between the various contradictory and often illegal demands of the far right members of the governing coalition.
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Feb 21, 2017 22:33
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MrNemo posted:What would it take to actually break the status quo? There are only two possible ways out that aren't fairytales. 1. Israel goes back to its roots with Nakba 2: Nakba Harder. 2. Climate change makes the entire area uninhabitable, forcing everyone to flee. Really the only question is about whether #2 will leave enough time for #1 to happen first. Now if you believe in fairytales, here's a non-horrible way out: The USA loving stop shielding Israel from the consequences of their horrible actions, sanctions are passed through the UN, this forces Israel to compromise in exchange for lifting the sanctions.
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Feb 21, 2017 22:33
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Cat Mattress posted:There are only two possible ways out that aren't fairytales. Unfortunately, all the relevant players in Trump's administration almost guarantee that this won't happen for the next 4-8 years.
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Feb 22, 2017 02:17
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Unfortunately, all the relevant players in Trump's administration almost guarantee that this won't happen for the next 4-8 years. Is there a reason why America has such a large say in Israel's accountability? Like I'm not really that familiar but I'd just as soon assume that the nature of the UN means more than one nation has a say, but is it more that America has the pull on the rest of the major member nations to get what it wants?
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Feb 22, 2017 02:24
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Maluco Marinero posted:Is there a reason why America has such a large say in Israel's accountability? Like I'm not really that familiar but I'd just as soon assume that the nature of the UN means more than one nation has a say, but is it more that America has the pull on the rest of the major member nations to get what it wants? Security Council members can veto anything of real importance, and the USA has a perma-seat by virtue of the whole superpower thing.
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Feb 22, 2017 02:27
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Maluco Marinero posted:Is there a reason why America has such a large say in Israel's accountability? Like I'm not really that familiar but I'd just as soon assume that the nature of the UN means more than one nation has a say, but is it more that America has the pull on the rest of the major member nations to get what it wants? America is a permanent member of the UN Security Council, meaning it can veto any motion it dislikes enough. It tends to dislike anti-Israel motions. Obama refusing to deploy the veto shortly before the end of his presidency caused Israel to flip its poo poo.
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Feb 22, 2017 02:30
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Maluco Marinero posted:Is there a reason why America has such a large say in Israel's accountability? Like I'm not really that familiar but I'd just as soon assume that the nature of the UN means more than one nation has a say, but is it more that America has the pull on the rest of the major member nations to get what it wants? America is one of the P5. Really, in an alternate universe it could be China, France, Russia, or the UK instead and it wouldn't change anything in practice. Like the other four, the USA have a veto power on UNSC resolutions, and they've used it systematically against every time a resolution was mildly critical of Israel (except for once in the last few days of Obama, but that one was just a generic condemnation of illegal acts and didn't mandate any form of action).
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Feb 22, 2017 02:31
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Cat Mattress posted:America is one of the P5. Really, in an alternate universe it could be China, France, Russia, or the UK instead and it wouldn't change anything in practice. Like the other four, the USA have a veto power on UNSC resolutions, and they've used it systematically against every time a resolution was mildly critical of Israel (except for once in the last few days of Obama, but that one was just a generic condemnation of illegal acts and didn't mandate any form of action). That isn't true. What is true is that the Obama administration had a policy of vetoing or threatening to veto every such resolution, until that lame duck decision to refrain from doing so.
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Feb 22, 2017 02:42
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Breaking the status quo literally only needs a handful of seats to change in a Knesset election and the 2 state solution is alive and kicking again. The idea that instead the USA and or international community must accede to maximalist Palestinian demands is laughable. No, in a peace process you loving compromise, one side getting everything they want isn't how this works. People who are against the two state solution are cheerleading for permanent, unending war and likely ethnic cleansing.
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Feb 22, 2017 03:43
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Kim Jong Il posted:No, in a peace process you loving compromise, one side getting everything they want isn't how this works. So can I infer that you are, in fact, against current Israeli policy?
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Feb 22, 2017 03:45
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wait, so we are in danger of acceding to maximalist Palestinian demands? what? eta I think something got left out of that post
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Feb 22, 2017 04:00
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Kim Jong Il posted:Breaking the status quo literally only needs a handful of seats to change in a Knesset election and the 2 state solution is alive and kicking again. The number of votes per seat in these elections was ~30,000. The current coalition has 67 out of 120 seats. You'd need 7 seats taken out to get them even, or ~200,000 voters to change their minds. And that's discounting the inability of the opposition parties to form their own coalition due to perhaps irreconcilable differences, or the tendency of Labor to be "responsible" and join Likud governments, and in practice act as fig leafs to expansionism. This was a very highly-attended election (72%), so there are not that many more people to add to create significant changes. Netanyahu, assuming he stays in power, will be going into the 2019 elections with a sympathetic American President and a security situation which will probably benefit him. In short, I don't share your optimism.
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Feb 22, 2017 04:03
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Kim Jong Il posted:Breaking the status quo literally only needs a handful of seats to change in a Knesset election and the 2 state solution is alive and kicking again. A real two-state solution hasn't been on the table since before Netanyahu became Prime Minister.
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Feb 22, 2017 04:12
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emanresu tnuocca posted:http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4925261,00.html Demoted? Does the IDF not do dishonorable discharges? Throwing him back out to the checkpoints with a lower rank after he finishes his sentence seems odd.
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Feb 22, 2017 04:44
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To anyone keeping tabs, Gilad Erdan has reframed the incident of the so called 'vehicular terror attack' in the bedouin village of Umm al-Hiran as a "tragic accidental incident in which a citizen and a police officer have lost their lives" - on the day of the event and right after the citizen in question one Mr. Yakoub Al-Qiyan was dubbed a "Terrorist affiliated with Daesh". Expect to see zero backlash on this.Mr.Unique-Name posted:Demoted? He won't actually continue his mandatory service after he is released from jail, he will get discharged but not dishonorably and will do so with the rank of a private. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 08:42
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the time is just before dawn on the twenty-second of february, 2017. the place is a luxury hotel suite in sydney, australia. prime minister binyamin "bibi" netanyahu awakes from a sultry dream of the jews suing the muslims for sole ownership of hommus to see the outline of a naked someone outside his bedroom curtains. a voice speaks, a low and gravelly voice he hasn't heard for well over a decade but recognises instantly; it says "justice comes for us all, netanyahu." bibi sits up, trying and failing to hide his heaving sweaty bosoms with the crisp hotel bedsheet. his cock rises at the memory of those steamy jerusalem evenings when former prime minister ariel sharon used to roast him on his spit like a kid goat. "arik? i thought you were dead" "i am dead. you stupid man. but my prophet lives!" the window shatters and a majestic creature swans into the room - not the rolling stormy sea of fat rolls that bibi still rides in his non-hommus-centric wet dreams, but a powerfully thighed young woman bedecked with supple breasts. it's me! i am nude and oiled from head to toe, my luscious curves silvered with australian eucalyptus moonlight and fourex beer. my legs go on and on. i advance upon the bed, my cleavage spreading like an eagle's wings. my various lips part and again the king of israel's voice rumbles forth. "you have shat all over my legacy and my country and also you have always been incredibly annoying so now the time of reckoning is upon you" bibi grabs up the phone to dial security, but the line is dead. his bodyguards are nowhere to be seen. for the first time he notices the empty space beside him in bed, and realises he is alone in the suite. "what have you done with my wife, you monster?" "i am your wife now," says arik with a thunderous anal exclamation, i begin to dance. i wave my arms above my head and shake my bubble rear end quite hard. bibi tries to flee but trips over his own tiny boner. he writhes on the carpet, shrieking. i am a loaded banquet table of nakedness, all my sugared delicacies uncovered and faintly steaming. i am the honey in the hive, the innards of the pomegranate, the fruits of the olive grove. i do a merry jig. one cannot jig without jiggling, and i jiggle mightily. i am all hair, from my scalp to my ankles. bibi screams and screams as my labia dilate and i descend to feed fade to black
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Feb 22, 2017 09:02
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Kim Jong Il posted:The idea that instead the USA and or international community must accede to maximalist Palestinian demands is laughable. No, in a peace process you loving compromise, one side getting everything they want isn't how this works. People who are against the two state solution are cheerleading for permanent, unending war and likely ethnic cleansing. "People who are against the two state solution" is a long but extremely accurate paraphrase for "Israeli". Cheerleading unending war and ethnic cleansing is what the people voting for Bibi do. More colonies, more landgrabbing, more walls, that's what Israeli policy is all about and the aim is to create the "fact on the ground" that a Palestinian state is forever impossible. Compromise is exactly what the Israeli do not want to do. Why? Because getting everything they want is exactly what they're doing, through force. You can't have a compromise between Israeli and Palestinians, because the Palestinians have nothing to offer that the Israeli cannot seize by force; and the Israeli do not want to offer anything because who could make them? The international community is the only one who can force Israel to compromise. As long as they're blocked from doing so, a viable and lasting peace will be forever impossible.
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Feb 22, 2017 10:24
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