Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

Decrepus posted:

If "extra" monsters didn't spawn to be farmed wouldn't it make waiting around pointless? I always have plenty of food. You can even find food laying on the ground in pandemonium so it's not like you will run out. Eating a bread because I am walking to my stash and back to pick up a ring or eating some bread before switching floors just has no impact.

You could do stuff like camp the stairs wait thousands of turns for enemies to wander into your LOS, though you'd probably still need to generate some noise in-between for sleeping enemies. Mummies can do this and it's boring as hell but it usually has a fair risk of getting a nasty OOD monster on you.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:20

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# ? May 14, 2024 02:58

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

Goodpancakes posted:

Sometimes I'll load up a crawl game again and after butchering and eating chunks through the first 5 levels I just get loving sick of the tediousness. I don't have to do it as often as I do I am sure but god drat is that a boring set of button presses. Stand on top of corpse, butcher, eat chunk, kill repeat. Ugh. Get rid of it

Are you using the optimizations that make chunk-eating easier? I honestly do that stuff pretty much on auto-pilot at this point.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:20

Cerepol: Dec 2, 2011

Goodpancakes posted:

Sometimes I'll load up a crawl game again and after butchering and eating chunks through the first 5 levels I just get loving sick of the tediousness. I don't have to do it as often as I do I am sure but god drat is that a boring set of button presses. Stand on top of corpse, butcher, eat chunk, kill repeat. Ugh. Get rid of it

Heh! thats for scrubs true players use

code:

##### 3-h Command Enhancements ##################
#
# auto_list = false auto_switch = true easy_open = false easy_unequip = false equip_unequip = true easy_confirm = (none | safe | all) allow_self_target = (yes | no | prompt) confirm_butcher 
# = (auto | always | never) easy_eat_chunks = true auto_eat_chunks = true auto_drop_chunks = (never | rotten | yes) prompt_for_swap = false easy_quit_item_prompts = false easy_exit_menu = 
# true sort_menus = pickup: true : art, ego, basename, qualname, curse, qty sort_menus = inv: true : equipped, freshness, charged autofight_stop = 30
easy_unequip = true
auto_drop_chunks = rotten
auto_butcher = true

also they are adding a new option for not even bothering to auto butcher until under a certain level of hunger.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:23

GenericOverusedName: Nov 24, 2009; KUVA TEAM EPIC

Theres some stuff you can put in your RC file to autochop and eat dudes. I'm barely even aware that hunger is a thing anymore.

E: What the dude above me had, do those.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:23

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

Thug Lessons posted:

I'm being "a dick" because you're talking out your rear end. Characters do not have an average of 8 ?rc by D:4-7. It's just not true.

You're a dumbass.

quote:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.19.4 (tiles) character file.

428 Gorf the Skirmisher (level 6, -4/57 HPs)
Began as a Minotaur Fighter on Feb 16, 2017.
Slain by Dragboath's ghost (6 damage)
... on level 4 of the Dungeon.
The game lasted 00:05:24 (2281 turns).

Gorf the Skirmisher (Minotaur Fighter) Turns: 2281, Time: 00:05:25

Health: -4/57 AC: 7 Str: 22 XL: 6 Next: 65%
Magic: 5/5 EV: 7 Int: 5 God:
Gold: 214 SH: 10 Dex: 10 Spells: 0 memorised, 5 levels left

rFire . . . SeeInvis . a - +0 war axe
rCold . . . Gourm . b - +0 scale mail
rNeg . . . Faith . c - +0 shield
rPois . Spirit . (helmet restricted)
rElec . Reflect . (no cloak)
rCorr . Harm . (no gloves)
MR ..... (no boots)
Stlth .......... (no amulet)
(no ring)
(no ring)

@: no status effects
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2
a: no special abilities

You were on level 4 of the Dungeon.
You were not hungry.

You visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and saw 4 of its levels.

You collected 214 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
a - a +0 war axe (weapon)
z - a +0 club
Armour
b - a +0 scale mail (worn)
c - a +0 shield (worn)
Jewellery
p - an uncursed ring of magical power {unknown}
w - a +2 ring of dexterity {unknown}
Scrolls
g - 5 scrolls of identify {unknown}
h - a scroll of blinking {unknown}
i - 3 scrolls of remove curse {unknown}
l - 3 scrolls of amnesia {unknown}
m - a scroll of immolation {unknown}
s - a scroll of fear {unknown}
x - a scroll of teleportation {unknown}
y - a scroll of enchant armour {unknown}
Potions
d - a potion of might
e - 2 potions of heal wounds {unknown}
j - a potion of invisibility {unknown}
k - 3 potions of mutation {unknown}
n - 2 potions of haste {unknown}
o - a potion of cancellation {unknown}
r - 2 potions of agility {unknown}
t - a potion of beneficial mutation {unknown}
u - a potion of resistance {unknown}
v - 2 potions of curing {unknown}
A - a potion of lignification {unknown}
D - a potion of magic {unknown}
F - 2 potions of degeneration {unknown}
Comestibles
f - 5 bread rations
q - 2 meat rations
B - a slice of pizza
C - a royal jelly
E - 4 fruits

Skills:
+ Level 5.7 Fighting
+ Level 4.8 Axes
+ Level 5.6 Armour
+ Level 5.1 Shields

You had 5 spell levels left.
You didn't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (4/15)
Temple: D:4-7

Altars:
Hepliaklqana
Kikubaaqudgha
Ru

Annotations:
D:4 Dragboath's ghost, amateur DsFi

Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.

Message History

A ball python skeleton comes into view.
You closely miss the iguana. You headbutt the iguana.
The iguana is severely wounded.
You hit Dragboath's ghost but do no damage.
You block Dragboath's ghost's attack. The iguana barely misses you.
You hit the iguana.
You kill the iguana!
You closely miss Dragboath's ghost.
Dragboath's ghost hits you but does no damage.
Dragboath's ghost hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You hit Dragboath's ghost. You headbutt Dragboath's ghost.
Dragboath's ghost is lightly damaged.
Dragboath's ghost hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You hit Dragboath's ghost but do no damage.
Your headbutt misses Dragboath's ghost.
Dragboath's ghost is lightly damaged.
Dragboath's ghost hits you.
You die...

?.? ??..?
?.? ?..??
??.? ??..?
.............# ?..? ?.[? ?
.............# ?.?? ??.?? ?
.....$.......# ?.?? ?..? ?
..%..........# ?..? ?..???
............# ??.? ??..?.
............# ?.?? ?....
#...........# ??.? ???.?
#......Z....# ??.? ???
.......W....# ?..?
.......@....# ?.??
............# ??.?
..........#.# ?..?
..........#.# ?.??
######....#.# ?.?
#....#.## ?.??
#....#..# ??.?
#######.# ?.??
#.# ??.??
#.## ?..?
#..# ?..? ?
##.## ?..? ??
#..# ?..? ?.

You could see Dragboath's ghost and a ball python skeleton.

Vanquished Creatures
Grinder (D:4)
A scorpion (D:4)
An iguana (D:4)
A worker ant (D:4)
6 adders
2 oozes
2 worms
2 dart slugs
3 leopard geckos
An orc (D:4)
A giant cockroach (D:1)
6 goblins
6 hobgoblins
A quokka (D:3)
2 bats
3 frilled lizards
5 kobolds
7 rats
51 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn | Place | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
0 | D:1 | Gorf the Minotaur Fighter began the quest for the Orb.
0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 19/19 MP: 0/0
85 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 26/27 MP: 1/1
668 | D:2 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 28/33 MP: 2/2
1305 | D:3 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 35/41 MP: 3/3
1394 | D:3 | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
1465 | D:3 | Found a hazy altar of Hepliaklqana.
1553 | D:3 | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
1810 | D:4 | Noticed Grinder
1812 | D:4 | Paralysed by Grinder for 3 turns
1821 | D:4 | Killed Grinder
1821 | D:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
1821 | D:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
1821 | D:4 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 10/48 MP: 4/4
1821 | D:4 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 11/56 MP: 5/5
2195 | D:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
2270 | D:4 | Noticed Dragboath's ghost (amateur DsFi)
2280 | D:4 | HP: 2/57 [Dragboath's ghost (9)]
2281 | D:4 | Slain by Dragboath's ghost

Skill XL: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 |
---------------+-------------------+-----
Fighting | 4 5 | 5.7
Armour | 4 5 | 5.6
Axes | 3 4 | 4.8
Shields | 4 5 | 5.1

Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: War axe | 84 | 58 || 142
Headbutt | 9 | 11 || 20
Eat: Fruit | 1 | || 1
Meat ration | | 1 || 1
Armor: Scale mail | 28 | 19 || 47
Dodge: Dodged | 18 | 11 || 29
Block: Shield | 40 | 33 || 73

I hadn't even hit temple yet. I'll run three more if you want.

e: Since apparently you didn't understand my post, 8+ Identify+Remove Curse is what I said.

fool of sound fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Feb 16, 2017

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:24

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

"You can add code to your RC file automate the process" isn't a defense of the mechanic.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:26

Cerepol: Dec 2, 2011

https://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/morgue/cerepol/morgue-cerepol-20170216-035855.txt

code:

3560 cerepol the Cleaver (level 10, 0/93 HPs)
             Began as a Hill Orc Monk on Feb 16, 2017.
             Was a High Priest of Ru.
             Slain by a red ugly thing (6 damage)
             ... on level 8 of the Dungeon.
             The game lasted 00:17:01 (8030 turns).

cerepol the Cleaver (Hill Orc Monk)                 Turns: 8030, Time: 00:17:01

Health: 0/93       AC: 12    Str: 20    XL:     10   Next: 9%
Magic:  6/10       EV: 11    Int: 11    God:    Ru [*****.]
Gold:   561        SH:  7    Dex: 13    Spells: 9/9 levels left

You were on level 8 of the Dungeon.
You worshipped Ru.
Ru was extremely pleased with you.
You were not hungry.

You visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and saw 8 of its levels.

Inventory:

Scrolls
 f - 3 scrolls of immolation
 h - 3 scrolls of amnesia
 i - 4 scrolls of enchant weapon
 m - 2 scrolls of blinking
 q - 4 scrolls of remove curse
 w - 2 scrolls of magic mapping
 C - 2 scrolls of enchant armour

I guess my anecdote was just super below average?

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:28

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

fool_of_sound posted:

You're a dumbass.

I hadn't even hit temple yet. I'll run three more if you want.

Oh, you're counting them together? Most players don't use ?id on equippables, they save them for potions and use-ID everything (except perhaps weapons to avoid disto). Also, this is still definitely an above-average crop.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:29

Cerepol: Dec 2, 2011

Fitzy Fitz posted:

"You can add code to your RC file automate the process" isn't a defense of the mechanic.

I don't think it was a defense of the mechanic at all I just want the dude to have a way to deal with it instead of just being annoyed until it may be addressed.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:29

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

Cerepol posted:

Heh! thats for scrubs true players use

code:

##### 3-h Command Enhancements ##################
#
# auto_list = false auto_switch = true easy_open = false easy_unequip = false equip_unequip = true easy_confirm = (none | safe | all) allow_self_target = (yes | no | prompt) confirm_butcher 
# = (auto | always | never) easy_eat_chunks = true auto_eat_chunks = true auto_drop_chunks = (never | rotten | yes) prompt_for_swap = false easy_quit_item_prompts = false easy_exit_menu = 
# true sort_menus = pickup: true : art, ego, basename, qualname, curse, qty sort_menus = inv: true : equipped, freshness, charged autofight_stop = 30
easy_unequip = true
auto_drop_chunks = rotten
auto_butcher = true

also they are adding a new option for not even bothering to auto butcher until under a certain level of hunger.

Here's what I use.

confirm_butcher = never
easy_eat_chunks = true
auto_eat_chunks = true

What's auto_butcher do?

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:37

FulsomFrank: Sep 11, 2005; Hard on for love

The food mechanic got significantly better QoL-wise with the auto-eat when you're hungry and have chunks.

Wonder if any of you guys remember the days of starting the game and having to grab the first bladed weapon you found for (c)hopping purposes only to wield it and lol it's cursed, time to restart.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:43

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

Thug Lessons posted:

Oh, you're counting them together? Most players don't use ?id on equippables, they save them for potions and use-ID everything (except perhaps weapons to avoid disto). Also, this is still definitely an above-average crop.

Yeah, but again, I hadn't even hit temple yet, and my point remains: the ID game is almost over by temple if you're willing to waste a few resources, or by lair if you aren't.

Also just did another test in which I didn't even hit temple:

quote:

Scrolls
g - 2 scrolls of amnesia {unknown}
l - 6 scrolls of identify {unknown}
m - 2 scrolls of fog {unknown}
o - a scroll of enchant weapon {unknown}
p - 2 scrolls of magic mapping {unknown}
q - a scroll of teleportation {unknown}
t - a scroll of summoning {unknown}
w - 4 scrolls of remove curse {unknown}
B - a scroll of noise {unknown}
C - a scroll of blinking {unknown}

Now this was an above average haul. I've literally never had less than 6 ID+Remov Curse by temple tho.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:44

WeedlordGoku69: Feb 12, 2015; by Cyrano4747

man, playing Spriggans is almost an entirely different game from playing minotaurs/ants/orcs

most of my deaths are to, like, jackals and geckos on D:1 because, while I can take one in a fight ~75% of the time, if they get a couple lucky hits I'm dead and jackals are too fast/numerous to run away from unless I'm lucky enough to be near a killhole

e: running a SpEn right now. managed to get past the D:1 hump. went to D:2, found a cursed ring of tele, read-ID'd curing, heal wounds and haste as my first three potions, stabbed Ijyb, nearly got my rear end handed to me by her because the stab didn't oneshot her, and then the tele-ring decided to bring me to safety. found Sigmund, kited him and Ijyb towards the staircase, got the gently caress upstairs and healed, then proceeded to confuse-stab both of them to death.

this is why I love playing Spriggans despite their absurd squishiness and how swingy that makes the early game

WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Feb 16, 2017

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:46

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

LORD OF BOOTY posted:

man, playing Spriggans is almost an entirely different game from playing minotaurs/ants/orcs

most of my deaths are to, like, jackals and geckos on D:1 because, while I can take one in a fight ~75% of the time, if they get a couple lucky hits I'm dead and jackals are too fast/numerous to run away from unless I'm lucky enough to be near a killhole

I believe you'll find jackals are not too fast for a spriggan to run away from.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:47

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

FulsomFrank posted:

The food mechanic got significantly better QoL-wise with the auto-eat when you're hungry and have chunks.

Wonder if any of you guys remember the days of starting the game and having to grab the first bladed weapon you found for (c)hopping purposes only to wield it and lol it's cursed, time to restart.

Even better, you find a blunt weapon first and it's cursed

Got 'em

# ? Feb 16, 2017 20:48

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

apple posted:

Even better, you find a blunt weapon first and it's cursed

Got 'em

There was an old Ashenzari tiny-vault that came with a spellbook containing Animate Skeleton just so that you could harvest chunks from corpses. :3:

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:01

WeedlordGoku69: Feb 12, 2015; by Cyrano4747

addendum to my SpEn story: got to D:3, pack of gnolls right outside the staircase one of whom had a flail of venom. killed them all with Ensorcelled and a little kiting, then got dropped down a shaft for 3 floors.

generally when the game tries this hard to kill me, it's because it gave me something really really rad, so I'm keeping an eye out for some randarts now.

e: holy loving poo poo the shaft dropped me right next to Blork :chanpop:

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:02

WeedlordGoku69: Feb 12, 2015; by Cyrano4747

this run has been an endless procession of pants-browning experiences that I am somehow miraculously surviving

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:06

vOv: Feb 8, 2014

Nothing like going down stairs to escape a player ghost only to wind up next to another ghost.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:11

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

People call for removing food, identify, and remove curse because the current systems have no teeth. They feel like legacy systems more than interesting mechanics in their current implementations.

If food is supposed to limit your total time in the dungeon (like Rogue), then why do chunks exist and trivialize the time limit? If it is supposed to limit high level spell/powerful ability use, why give them an elongated punishment of instant death thousands of turns down the road instead of punishing immediately? If it is supposed to limit your time per floor, then why use OOD spawns that provide more food via chunks? It needs to pick a task and focus on it, or not exist.

Curses in their could be interesting if remove curse was rarer or less powerful (maybe one scroll per piece of equipment). However, it only really exists for non-Ash worshippers in the desperate beginnings of the game where you wield/wear anything for an advantage because you can't spare identifying it. Likewise, identify is less meaningful due to auto-identify, leaving the scrolls only useful for early game consumables, rare wands, and late game artifacts. However, it is often plentiful enough to not make trial and error a necessity.

My approaches would be:
Food- Cut it entirely or have it permafood only as a 'stamina' system for spamming powerful abilities/spells in combat, with the punishment of passing out for overexhaustion. Rework gourmand/mummies to innate energy (no stamina loss) and remove the amulets, ghouls get innate health gain and restore rot on kill, vampires just choose between alive and dead (with dead having health regeneration, so give alive some other benefits). Adjust the OOD system to be a better floor timer (like spawning nasty permanent summons for no xp after a set time per floor, likely at a value that implies heavy scumming), and leave piety decay as the overall pace encouragement system.

Identify- Remove identify scrolls, but leave everything unidentified until used/equipped as it currently works (Ash gets monopoly on identifying objects without using them). Combine this with the curse changes below.

Remove Curse/Curses- Change negative properties on artifacts to be referred to as curses (if an effect is on-hit, give it a similar on-remove effect in addition , ex. *Confuse gives you confuse for 50-100 turns on removal). Turn the current armor/weapon cursing system into a negative property/curse (*Sticky) that leaves you unable to unequip the item normally. Give magic items (as in blue items, including all jewelery) a chance to generate with a single curse, regardless if the item is negatively or positively enchanted; mundane equipment should never generate with a curse. Amulets/rings with negative unequip effects/generate sticky cursed are given that effect as a curse (maybe mark Faith's as *Holy and add that to the pool that can generate on other items/artifacts without the piety rate bonus). Change Remove Curse to either:
-temporarily grant the 'Blessed' status, which allows you to remove items with curses without suffering the curse effects
-immediately unequip all cursed equipment without suffering the curse effects
Make remove curse rarer (probably blinking level of rare). Change Ash to accept any item with a curse as 'cursed', and give the ability to add a single curse (of any type) to any equipped item for zero piety.

Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Feb 16, 2017

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:18

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

MP already exists as a (much better designed)limiter on magic and food doesn't hold back berserk in any meaningful way. Food needs no replacement, just remove it.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:20

ChickenWing: Jul 22, 2010

IronicDongz posted:

Food needs no replacement, just remove it.

Alternatively, give it teeth again. Re-introduce contam/poison/degen chunks, hand out less permafood.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:22

Sage Grimm: Feb 18, 2013; Let's go explorin' little dude!

MaxHP loss because your diet isn't a balanced diet. Omnivores need both vegan and meat options regularly! Kobolds are unaffected because they'll eat any old garbage. Halflings are doubly affected because of intrinsic second breakfast need.

Gain scurvy when you go without fruit for too long.

COOKING AS A SKILL. (Ha, take that learndb "bad ideas"!)

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:32

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

Please don't suggest fixes for curse that boil down to "make it loving awful". Curse is not fun. It's pretty easy to play around even if you are assuming RC is blink-level rare, but it is extremely uninteresting.

Here's a fun challenge, try to play the game except you are only allowed to use remove curse once for every rune you have collected. Delight in the excitement of never trying any glowing weapons for brands, marvel as you ignore enchanted aux armour you are locked out of, gaze in wonder at all the jewellery you won't be wearing until you find more ?ID.

Thug Lessons posted:

It's relevant up until you reach a critical mass of ?rc, which usually occurs somewhere between early Dungeon and the end of Lair. I don't see what benefit is gained by removing any limits on use-IDing for early-game characters just because mid to late-game characters effectively don't have one either.

The critical mass of RC is three though. You can find three RC in the first level. Almost every character can use-ID as much as they like (assuming they are at least somewhat smart about it) as soon as they like, and it's only the exceptions at the far tail of the RNG that really get screwed by bad curses and no scroll spawns.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:33

Carcer: Aug 7, 2010

ChickenWing posted:

Alternatively, give it teeth again. Re-introduce contam/poison/degen chunks, hand out less permafood.

There was a lot of arguing about those chunks when they got removed and how terrible it was for innately poison resisting races to lose out on food sources in spider/where ever else lots of poisonous things are. I don't think anyone wants to revisit that particular fight.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:35

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Darox posted:

Please don't suggest fixes for curse that boil down to "make it loving awful". Curse is not fun. It's pretty easy to play around even if you are assuming RC is blink-level rare, but it is extremely uninteresting.

Here's a fun challenge, try to play the game except you are only allowed to use remove curse once for every rune you have collected. Delight in the excitement of never trying any glowing weapons for brands, marvel as you ignore enchanted aux armour you are locked out of, gaze in wonder at all the jewellery you won't be wearing until you find more ?ID.

The critical mass of RC is three though. You can find three RC in the first level. Almost every character can use-ID as much as they like (assuming they are at least somewhat smart about it) as soon as they like, and it's only the exceptions at the far tail of the RNG that really get screwed by bad curses and no scroll spawns.

That's why I recommended combining that system change with removing ?ID, to force interaction regardless.

Anyway, it's a brainstormed proposal as an alternative to the dreaded "removal" option. The point is that the current system fails to do anything for non-Ash users, so it either needs revision or removal.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:39

Dr. Fraiser Chain: May 18, 2004; Redlining my shit posting machine

You could partially remove them for some races. Only keep those mechanics if you play high elf for instance! Problem solved!

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:41

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

redneck nazgul posted:

There was an old Ashenzari tiny-vault that came with a spellbook containing Animate Skeleton just so that you could harvest chunks from corpses.

Not gonna lie, the food factor may be a contributor to me falling in love with Necromancer hybrid starts.

Edit: also I remember where your username came from :v:

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:44

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

Darox posted:

The critical mass of RC is three though. You can find three RC in the first level. Almost every character can use-ID as much as they like (assuming they are at least somewhat smart about it) as soon as they like, and it's only the exceptions at the far tail of the RNG that really get screwed by bad curses and no scroll spawns.

I definitely hold off on use-IDing certain items in the early game until I can get a decent supply of ?rc. There's certainly characters where that happens extremely quickly, but it's definitely not all of them.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:46

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

Roses are red
Violets are blue
I hate chunks
Remove food

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:48

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

Floodkiller posted:

That's why I recommended combining that system change with removing ?ID, to force interaction regardless.

Anyway, it's a brainstormed proposal as an alternative to the dreaded "removal" option. The point is that the current system fails to do anything for non-Ash users, so it either needs revision or removal.

It doesn't force interaction regardless. Removing ID from the equation just means you play even more conservatively with your important slots. Right now if you find a glowing longbow you might try it out as a potential ranged sidearm, with 'relevant' curses you ignore it because if it is cursed it would screw your character or burn an extremely limited resource. You would simply stockpile all of your un-IDed jewellery and test it all in bursts to optimise RC uses.

Just remove curses, they're not a good mechanic. Ash is the only thing keeping them relevant.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:50

Buane: Nov 28, 2005; When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll

Hi I am a very new player. About ~100 games under my belt. Have never progressed past XL15. Here is my experience with food: it has felt proper and balanced and slightly meaningful the way small mechanics in roguelikes sometimes feel. Occasionally I'd run out or/low on food and would need to make decisions. More often than not it wouldn't be a problem. Some species had food mechanics of their own but because I am unbelievably bad at the game I've avoided them thus far.

Here's the rub though: until reading the last page of this thread, I had no idea you could butcher corpses and get food/meat that way. So I guess that's a thing? Maybe it...shouldn't be a thing. I kind of liked how food worked in my own little world of ignorance. I could see how it would seem dumb and unnecessary if I were getting food from butchering corpses all the time.

Anyway you probably shouldn't give my words and weight because I'm still super terrible at this game.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 21:57

Cerepol: Dec 2, 2011

Darox posted:

It doesn't force interaction regardless. Removing ID from the equation just means you play even more conservatively with your important slots. Right now if you find a glowing longbow you might try it out as a potential ranged sidearm, with 'relevant' curses you ignore it because if it is cursed it would screw your character or burn an extremely limited resource. You would simply stockpile all of your un-IDed jewellery and test it all in bursts to optimise RC uses.

Just remove curses, they're not a good mechanic. Ash is the only thing keeping them relevant.

Basically cursed gear only matters if the game wants to gently caress you, at some point Crawl devs decided that wasn't the direction and nerfed it to the point where outside the odd early wield-ID, it rarely matters instead of going whole hog and removing it. I'm honestly fine with casual curse being gone and that entirely being Ash's wheelhouse.

In my mind the point of cursing is meant to ensure you can't easily switch between all your available options, the issues with that being in crawl atm, the only spots that get changed frequently are rings, occasional changes would include Weapon (mostly for hydras?), and cloaks/scarves.

How about Ashenzanri's curse requirement changes to scrolls of ID, still creates a restraint early game as you need to balance IDing items vs cursing items to gain that sweet sweet piety, and it would charge a piety cost to uncurse an item based on how long ago you uncursed a slot (lowering as the time since last uncurse increases). It would force slow, thoughtful item exchanges as you can't change a few slots at once without a piety spike as well as make the amulet of faith more attractive to Ashenzari users.

Maybe a piety cost of 30 (at 0 turns since last uncurse) down to say 10 (after say 2000 turns?) Would 10 be a good piety cost for the ability to switch a ring/weapon etc?

It would help enforce the idea of equipment permanence.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 22:07

Carcer: Aug 7, 2010

Buane posted:

Hi I am a very new player. About ~100 games under my belt. Have never progressed past XL15. Here is my experience with food: it has felt proper and balanced and slightly meaningful the way small mechanics in roguelikes sometimes feel. Occasionally I'd run out or/low on food and would need to make decisions. More often than not it wouldn't be a problem. Some species had food mechanics of their own but because I am unbelievably bad at the game I've avoided them thus far.

Here's the rub though: until reading the last page of this thread, I had no idea you could butcher corpses and get food/meat that way. So I guess that's a thing? Maybe it...shouldn't be a thing. I kind of liked how food worked in my own little world of ignorance. I could see how it would seem dumb and unnecessary if I were getting food from butchering corpses all the time.

Anyway you probably shouldn't give my words and weight because I'm still super terrible at this game.

No, what you say is important because its showing that something fundamental to the game isn't/wasn't getting communicated properly. I wonder how many other players that play offline and never go anywhere near wikis or forums don't know about stuff like butchering.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 22:30

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

Carcer posted:

There was a lot of arguing about those chunks when they got removed and how terrible it was for innately poison resisting races to lose out on food sources in spider/where ever else lots of poisonous things are. I don't think anyone wants to revisit that particular fight.

The problem wasn't that poison chunks got removed, it's that they got replaced with inedible chunks. Even then it didn't affect game balance, it just made Spider more annoying because you had to manually interact with the [e]at command more often.

Buane posted:

Hi I am a very new player. About ~100 games under my belt. Have never progressed past XL15. Here is my experience with food: it has felt proper and balanced and slightly meaningful the way small mechanics in roguelikes sometimes feel. Occasionally I'd run out or/low on food and would need to make decisions. More often than not it wouldn't be a problem. Some species had food mechanics of their own but because I am unbelievably bad at the game I've avoided them thus far.

Here's the rub though: until reading the last page of this thread, I had no idea you could butcher corpses and get food/meat that way. So I guess that's a thing? Maybe it...shouldn't be a thing. I kind of liked how food worked in my own little world of ignorance. I could see how it would seem dumb and unnecessary if I were getting food from butchering corpses all the time.

Anyway you probably shouldn't give my words and weight because I'm still super terrible at this game.

Even with just permafood, it doesn't take long to hit the 'welp, food is trivial forever' point. It's only in the early game where your permafood supply is scarce enough to be a concern.

Stay alive long enough to hit the guaranteed mid-dungeon food vault, or a food shop, or the various Lair fruit vaults, and you'll never go hungry again.

I'm not knocking you or anything, but worrying too much about The Hunger Cost is a newbie trap in general.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 22:32

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Darox posted:

It doesn't force interaction regardless. Removing ID from the equation just means you play even more conservatively with your important slots. Right now if you find a glowing longbow you might try it out as a potential ranged sidearm, with 'relevant' curses you ignore it because if it is cursed it would screw your character or burn an extremely limited resource. You would simply stockpile all of your un-IDed jewellery and test it all in bursts to optimise RC uses.

Just remove curses, they're not a good mechanic. Ash is the only thing keeping them relevant.

From the position I'm advocating, the argument about the weapon is exactly the sort of teeth a curse system needs to be relevant. The hoarding argument would be more valid in terms of criticism that would need to be fixed for such a proposal.

I am also fine with just removing curses outside of Ash if a system with teeth is not desirable.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 22:34

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

I just don't see how "the best strategy is to ignore floor loot" is a desirable outcome.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 22:39

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Darox posted:

I just don't see how "the best strategy is to ignore floor loot" is a desirable outcome.

It might be that we're talking past one another. I'm arguing for the design of a curse system that has function and purpose, not desirability. The entire point of the design of curse systems is to create a risk/reward scenario for swapping out gear for something unidentified in the hopes that it is better. It works hand in hand with identification systems as well, which is why I say it is important that ?ID is removed (or at the very least, made rare) for it to work. The reason why remove curse and identify are plentiful in current Crawl is that I don't think the numbers have been properly brought down after all the auto-identify patches. Curses used to be relevant in Crawl because being cursed and being a good or bad item was not mutually exclusive; you had to go through a Nethack-esque identification process or burn a scroll of identify to find out (and optimal play was and still is to use ?ID on consumables first). As equipment, weapons, wands, and jewelery were all adjusted to auto-ID, identification and curses lost their teeth. If you don't want to revert back to Nethack style identification, you have to add the teeth a different way to make the systems relevant again; my proposal is to do that by severely reducing or eliminating identification sources (while leaving in auto-ID on equip/use) and making players weigh risk/reward when equipping gear, with a semi-rare scroll to bail them out every now and then (but not enough to completely forget about the system).

In the end, however, desirability is what the dev team decides upon, through group consultation and comparison to design philosophy. It's fine if a hostile curse system is no longer desirable, but then there shouldn't be a vestigial curse system left behind to annoy without actually affecting gameplay past a couple unlucky dungeon floors in the beginning of the game.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 23:22

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Interesting discussions. We once had a more serious attempt at food removal. Ultimately, nothing happened because everyone agreed that something should be done but we never agreed on hard vs soft solution. Soft solution: just remove all food. Hard: only have permafood (this is an attempt to make food an actual clock). Since then, all food changes have been about convenience. I recently suggested (and there's even a pull request by Doesn't) that killing monsters should have a chance to leave a corpse (as now) or else have a chance to produce chunks. This way necromancy use would be unchanged, and the 'c'hop command could be removed. The proposal didn't get traction -- I think there's another food change in the making.

Floodkiller posted:

People call for removing food, identify, and remove curse because the current systems have no teeth. They feel like legacy systems more than interesting mechanics in their current implementations.

Curses in their could be interesting if remove curse was rarer or less powerful (maybe one scroll per piece of equipment). However, it only really exists for non-Ash worshippers in the desperate beginnings of the game where you wield/wear anything for an advantage because you can't spare identifying it.

Remove Curse/Curses- Change negative properties on artifacts to be referred to as curses (if an effect is on-hit, give it a similar on-remove effect in addition , ex. *Confuse gives you confuse for 50-100 turns on removal). Turn the current armor/weapon cursing system into a negative property/curse (*Sticky) that leaves you unable to unequip the item normally. Give magic items (as in blue items, including all jewelery) a chance to generate with a single curse, regardless if the item is negatively or positively enchanted; mundane equipment should never generate with a curse. Amulets/rings with negative unequip effects/generate sticky cursed are given that effect as a curse (maybe mark Faith's as *Holy and add that to the pool that can generate on other items/artifacts without the piety rate bonus).

I agree. Like some others, I believe that (a) currently, the curse minigame is very boring outside of Ashenzari (the most interesting aspect are cursing artefacts) and (b) that there is potential for a much better mechanic. For the latter, I think it's crucial to extend the notion of "curse" beyond sticky, i.e. cannot unwield. Floodkiller's ideas are interesting, I've been toying with cursed items being innately double-edged.

A few words about the id-minigame: I am against removing it because it does provide choices in the very early game when you have not so many other decisions, such as what to use. The basic tension is between use-id and scroll-id (there's also monster-id, shop-id and emergency use). I am absolutely interested in hearing more ideas about how to add such decisions. My modest contributions were the ability to use id-scrolls on decks (that's moot now, I think) and the wand charges thing (I believe that was a good change).
It's clear that the id-minigame peters out at some point. This is natural because more and more items will be identified. Unless somebody comes up with a really cool idea for how to keep it alive, I like the idea that picking up your first rune identifies stuff.

# ? Feb 16, 2017 23:33

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# ? May 14, 2024 02:58

Scaramouche: Mar 26, 2001; SPACE FACE! SPACE FACE!

Carcer posted:

No, what you say is important because its showing that something fundamental to the game isn't/wasn't getting communicated properly. I wonder how many other players that play offline and never go anywhere near wikis or forums don't know about stuff like butchering.

I didn't "get" butchering for food chunks until .16 and had been playing since the graphic tiles were introduced

# ? Feb 16, 2017 23:34

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