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Count Bleck posted:Literally every control deck is running Reno Jackson. For the record, that's a 6 mana 4/6 with "if your deck has no duplicates, restore your health to full." Literally every control deck, spread through about 4-5 classes, is a Reno deck. To be fair, the current Hearthstone Standard metagame is that but it's at least diverse in archetypes. The metagame it replaced was just Midrange goodstuff decks butting heads with each other and trampling anyone caught in between.
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Feb 17, 2017 02:35
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I want to propose a prediction game for the ptq's going forward though I suppose it would be easier when they start the team based events? picking the deck would be stupid so maybe a pool of the top seeds and go from there?
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Feb 17, 2017 02:38
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mcmagic posted:It's not just modern. It's team split format and it's gonna be awesome. Oh yeah? Groovy. The only things I have seen on twitter about it are modern decklists but split format team stuff seems really good.
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Feb 17, 2017 02:52
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I saw Firebat (a HS streamer) did a rant on exactly why Hearthstone metagame is so loving awful, and it mirrors the complaints from that article on why diverse metagames aren't necessarily good. The format is in fact diverse. There are several good control decks, aggro deck, midrange decks, and a combo deck. Each of these decks has approximately a 50% winrate over the whole field. This alone doesn't make the format not awful though. The problem is the gameplay just isn't interesting at all. Firebat pointed to the fact that you can often determine who wins a game before you ever play out a single turn. The aggro pirate draw is absurdly strong. A control deck that sees Reno in its opening hand probably won't lose to any aggro deck, but a control deck that can't find Reno has a really hard time beating aggro. It's a random singleton in a 30 card deck that determines whether you have a chance at all in the game. The combo deck plays about 18 cards that effectively do nothing at all outside of the turn you go off (burn cards that go to the opponent's face, a 6 mana guy that makes all your spells cantrip, a card that makes your guys untargettable for 1 turn that is only meant to protect said 6 drop, a 0 mana card that makes your next spell cost 3 less, etc). Likewise, aggro decks from previous formats tended to play about 12 1 mana cards. Right now you really only play 5. They're extremely undercosted 1-drops, but this means that the chance of not curving out properly is high and if you don't curve out properly as an aggro deck you're going to lose. On the surface maybe every deck is balanced against the metagame and there's a bunch of different playstyles, but the winrates are all pulled towards 50% by the variance in what you draw being extremely big determinants of whether you win or lose. There's not really any kind of interesting plays, either, since you pretty much just curve out as aggro/midrange decks. The control decks either win or lose on the back of casting a few specific cards and you can play really awfully and still win just by casting them (the control deck gimmick is that you have to play a deck of all singletons because there are incredibly overpowered cards that require your deck to be all singletons to activate). Magic has been having a really bad case of this as well. You could look at the metagame before AER and think it was a good metagame, since it featured like 5 different decks of all the colors in several different archetypes. The problem was the gameplay was just miserable, like getting Emrakul'd on turn 4 repeatedly. It doesn't matter if BR aggro, WR vehicles, UG Marvel, UW flash, and BG delirium are all good competitive decks that all work differently and play a wide range of different cards if the gameplay isn't interesting. I personally value "diversity" as essentially worthless for competitive games. I think Caw-blade standard was the best standard of all time by far, and likewise don't have any real interest in modern.
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Feb 17, 2017 03:06
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Ultima66 posted:I personally value "diversity" as essentially worthless for competitive games. I think Caw-blade standard was the best standard of all time by far, and likewise don't have any real interest in modern. The problem is that MTG isn't strictly competitive. A large swath of the players in a Grand Prix are there to have fun playing Magic, same with FNMs and other local events, and Caw-Blade standard was not a good time for standard attendance since people really don't want to pay a large amount of money for The Best Deck just to fight other players with The Best Deck. Diversity isn't important for the health of a competitive metagame, it's important for the entire game. The actual problem for that Hearthstone metagame seems like it is the variance, which is closer to Yu-Gi-Oh's problem and is a power level disparity problem. When you've got some cards that are obscenely powerful when cast on time, naturally decks will gravitate around them, and the games when you draw your Toolcraft Exemplar into Heart of Kiran into Depala into Gideon your opponent just can't come back, but the games where you go Thraben Inspector into crack the clue into Depala into Scrapheap Scrounger and a tapped land you're probably dead. Same with Caw-Blade - if you go turn two Squadron Hawk and they go turn two Stoneforge, you're probably dead. So hey I guess this is relevant for Magic after all!
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Feb 17, 2017 03:27
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Count Bleck posted:Literally every control deck is running Reno Jackson. For the record, that's a 6 mana 4/6 with "if your deck has no duplicates, restore your health to full." Literally every control deck, spread through about 4-5 classes, is a Reno deck. This is the reason I stopped playing Hearthstone again.
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Feb 17, 2017 03:36
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Ultima66 posted:The control decks either win or lose on the back of casting a few specific cards and you can play really awfully and still win just by casting them So HS control is Miracles.
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Feb 17, 2017 03:37
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CCGs being draw dependent? Surely not!
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Feb 17, 2017 03:42
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gwrtheyrn posted:CCGs being draw dependent? Surely not! There's a difference between being "draw-dependent" (but skill still matters), and being a literal candyland where the game is decided when the decks are shuffled.
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Feb 17, 2017 03:52
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Ultima66 posted:I saw Firebat (a HS streamer) did a rant on exactly why Hearthstone metagame is so loving awful, and it mirrors the complaints from that article on why diverse metagames aren't necessarily good. For me, diversity is necessary but not sufficient for a good metagame. That article and your explanation are quite correct that pushing a button labeled "DIVERSITY" won't in and of itself make a metagame fun and enjoyable, but a lack of diversity can sure keep it from being enjoyable for someone like me. (I didn't like Caw-Blade Standard, for the record.)
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Feb 17, 2017 03:55
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Sickening posted:Oh yeah? Groovy. The only things I have seen on twitter about it are modern decklists but split format team stuff seems really good. Yup I'm playing Legacy.
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Feb 17, 2017 03:57
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Can you play any three decks, or is there some unified construction rule where if your Legacy player has a set of Scalding Tarns, you can't run any Scalding Tarns in your team's Modern deck?
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Feb 17, 2017 04:06
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Ultima66 posted:I saw Firebat (a HS streamer) did a rant on exactly why Hearthstone metagame is so loving awful, and it mirrors the complaints from that article on why diverse metagames aren't necessarily good. That's why the article doesn't make sense in the context of modern. Modern has interesting gameplay (opinion yeah, but it's really popular for a reason) and also a variety of decks in each type of strategy. Affinity and Bushwhacker Zoo are both aggro decks but they play very different cards.
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Feb 17, 2017 04:25
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BJPaskoff posted:Can you play any three decks, or is there some unified construction rule where if your Legacy player has a set of Scalding Tarns, you can't run any Scalding Tarns in your team's Modern deck? Nope any three.
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Feb 17, 2017 04:30
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BaronVonVaderham posted:This is the reason I stopped playing Hearthstone again. Reno was fine on it's own, Kazakus is extremely dumb though. I like hs but the last two standard seasons have been awful.
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Feb 17, 2017 04:41
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I cut the Esper out of my deck and am just running straight BW control again. Let's see how this goes.
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Feb 17, 2017 05:07
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Ultima66 posted:I saw Firebat (a HS streamer) did a rant on exactly why Hearthstone metagame is so loving awful, and it mirrors the complaints from that article on why diverse metagames aren't necessarily good. I might be mixing up some posts, but wasn't there some commentary earlier ITT about how a lot of popular CCGs (Hearthstone, Duelyst, etc) basically removed the "feel bad" aspects of MTG (counters, wraths, effective removal, complex spell interactions, etc) and are basically a rock-paper-scissors cycle of combo., midrange, or creatures running into each other? Which allowed for a good bit of growth because it was new and shiny and low barrier to entry for unfamiliar folks, but now at least one of those games is experiencing a stagnancy similar to what we're seeing in MTG Standard. Then WOTC, in an effort to duplicate that success, removed or neutered all the "feel bad" aspects and are now looking down the barrel of another year of poorly managed, low growth Standard, while also undermining Modern and other constructed formats in a last ditch effort to force people to play an (artificially) expensive, (mostly) unfun format. FWIW, I remember being a scrub and getting my Thorn Elemental pre-con deck blown out of the water by dudes running counters, burn, and board wipes, but part of the fun and fulfillment of becoming a better player was 1) learning how to play those other archetypes 2) learning how to beat them with my archetype of choice (fast creatures and burn) and 3) having a standard environment where there was at least some flexibility and a width of options so that no one deck was super dominant nor inordinately expensive. Hell, my favorite deck of all time is probably MM/Invasion era Skies, which was not even close to tier 1 but could put up some respectable results and could be built for <$100. The idea that "feel bad" cards are driving out new players seems faulty on it's face and if new players are being discouraged it probably has more to do with lovely environments, being priced out of product, or inaccessible, insular events that cater to the alpha sperglord at your LGS. Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 05:31
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gwrtheyrn posted:CCGs being draw dependent? Surely not! I thought one of the bigger problems with HS was that being on the play means a hell of a lot more than in Magic.
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Feb 17, 2017 05:38
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Rap Record Hoarder posted:I might be mixing up some posts, but wasn't there some commentary earlier ITT about how a lot of popular CCGs (Hearthstone, Duelyst, etc) basically removed the "feel bad" aspects of MTG (counters, wraths, effective removal, complex spell interactions, etc) and are basically a rock-paper-scissors cycle of combo., midrange, or creatures running into each other? Which allowed for a good bit of growth because it was new and shiny and low barrier to entry for unfamiliar folks, but now at least one of those games is experiencing a stagnancy similar to what we're seeing in MTG Standard. Then WOTC, in an effort to duplicate that success, removed or neutered all the "feel bad" aspects and are now looking down the barrel of another year of poorly managed, low growth Standard, while also undermining Modern and other constructed formats in a last ditch effort to force people to play an (artificially) expensive, (mostly) unfun format. That might have had something to do with WotC's decisions. A lot of those online (and paper!) TCGs are just the essence of Magic's combat phase distilled into a game. I actually felt a little embarrassed for some pro player recently who was all excited to spoil a card for Eternal. I looked at it. It was a creature with power, toughness, a casting cost, creature types, a keyword ability, and an ETB (sorry, "summon:" ) ability that gave opponent's creatures -1/-0. It's incredibly lazy game design and I feel sort of insulted that people want me to get excited over it. Yet it keeps working on others because it's a low barrier to entry, people can get in on the ground floor, and people can log onto a stable and flashy looking client and pay $1 or whatever per booster pack and $3 to draft. Meanwhile Wizards is over there stuck with set redemption leading their prices to be the same as paper Magic and things happening such as everyone being dropped from every sealed league at once and the company shrugging it off because they haven't yet lost enough customers over it to force them to change, and probably won't for a few years.
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Feb 17, 2017 05:46
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BJPaskoff posted:Meanwhile Wizards is over there stuck with set redemption leading their prices to be the same as paper Magic... On the other hand, I guess pricing them reasonably would further underline the high cost of "real" drafts.
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Feb 17, 2017 06:01
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Reminder: WotC still believes that MTGO is a competitor to its paper product.
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Feb 17, 2017 06:34
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Well, Magic Digital Next is going to be entering beta this summer and will probably be announced tomorrow. They've been spending on it since at least 2015 so perhaps it will be just what we're all looking for.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:43
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Errant Gin Monks posted:I cut the Esper out of my deck and am just running straight BW control again. Let's see how this goes. What made you switch?
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Feb 17, 2017 07:51
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DangerDongs posted:What made you switch? Just not liking the land base. Regardless of how I moved it around I had issues with getting double colors. Using 8 w/b lands plus aether hub makes it more consistent. I can also just jam it full of removal. 10 1-2 mana removal spells makes it easy to slow down Mardi vehicles and GB. I also like having 7 ways to remove planeswalkers. I also was able to jam 4 walking ballistic in for early game blockers/ removal and late game mana sinks. Right now the list is 2 sorin 2 ob 3 Lilly 2 Gideon 2 Kalitas 2 gonti 2 avacyn 2 noxious 4 walking ballista 4 grasps 4 fatal push 3 stasis snare 3 ruinous path 2 sacrifice delerium thingys 4 courtyard 4 shambling vents 4 aether hub 2 westvale 2 evolving wilds 4 swamps 3 Plains Sb is 3 Thalia 3 fragmentize 2 fumigate 2 cataclysmic gearhulk 3 -3/-3 cast a 3 card thingy 2 -1/-1 enchantment thingy Sorry it's late I can't remember all the names with this much bourbon in me. Errant Gin Monks fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 08:06
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I think the core reason HS and others have limited stuff like counters and spell interactions is to make the game run wihout having to consult the opponent. I reinstalled Magic Duels for a bit yesterday and sweet Jesus having to wait two seconds after every single click is awful. Lol if Wizards are actually cutting back on the good part of the game to make a paper product more online-friendly.
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Feb 17, 2017 10:38
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Errant Gin Monks posted:Just not liking the land base. Regardless of how I moved it around I had issues with getting double colors. Using 8 w/b lands plus aether hub makes it more consistent. We must have different metas. I feel like I need the blue, because I have one guy playing standard cheerios, and there are some Copycats. I am currently looking at this. 1 Sorin 1 Ob 1 Jace 2 Gideon 2 Lili 2 Avacyn 2 Kalitas 4 Spell Queller (I think it may be wise to make these Void shatters main board) 4 Fatal push 3 Immolating glare 2x Anguished unmaking 1x To the Slaughter 1x Quarantine Field 2x Glimmer of genius 2x Anticipate 2x Negate 2x Baraal's Expertise 4 Concealed courtyard 4 Shambling Vent 4 Evolving Wilds 3 Prarie Stream 3 Chocked estuary 2 Plains 2 Swamp 4 Island Sideboard 4 Transgress the mind 3 Dispel 1 Negate 2 Yahaani's expertise 1 Gideon (I really want this to be a Ghonti) 1 Linvala, the preserver 2 Fragmentize 1 Kambal (super iffy on this guy) I think the first thing I am going to realize about this deck is that main board Spell Quellers eating removal is going to bad, even with recurring Lili, and that I should -4 SQ -2 Baraal's Expertise and +4 Void shatter +2 Yahaani's expertise mainboard. I also really want a Ghonti in the side for control. I did my best to cut down on double costed cards for the early game, which meant things like immolating glare over grasp, and Anguished Unmaking over ruinous path. I originally had the two main deck negates as dispel, because I imagined sticking gideon safely on turn 5 against control was game breaking and being able to protect SQ more easily, but I didn't want dead cards versus all the aggro at my store. I'll let you guys know how it goes tonight. I do not expect to do nearly as well as I have been with Jeskai control (no combo)
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Feb 17, 2017 16:39
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Looks like EMA boxes are up on massdrop today for 160.
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Feb 17, 2017 16:48
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news from our dear leaders at wotc: An announcement about Magic Digital Next that says absolutely nothing A Kaladesh D&D setting
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Feb 17, 2017 17:11
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Hmm, sounds like it's really just "make modo less crashy, and introduce new game modes and stuff". It certainly doesn't sound like they're going to invest in a bottom-up replacement, at any rate.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:15
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Elyv posted:news from our dear leaders at wotc: I'm guessing its just V.5. The picture they used at the Toy Fair =  If it looks and plays like Duels, the game will die off digitally because Duels is terrible for competitive play. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 17:37
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DangerDongs posted:We must have different metas. I feel like I need the blue, because I have one guy playing standard cheerios, and there are some Copycats. After posting this last night I ripped out 1 stasis snare, 1 ruinous path and 1 sacrifice a creature thing and added 3 anguished unmakings. I'm not sure if bolting myself will be bad but the card is too useful to leave out.
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Feb 17, 2017 18:00
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Angry Grimace posted:I'm guessing its just V.5. I would've thought that was a hastily put together mock up, but apparently there was a video showing it in action (that they're not releasing to the public atm).
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Feb 17, 2017 18:28
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That looks like hot garbage. Look at that stupid red newgrounds flash game beam in the middle. Did it really have to be Dirk Manpunch vs. Bolt Vanderhuge?
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Feb 17, 2017 18:38
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this screenshot is so thrown together that they have garruk casting red spells and ajani casting green spells
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Feb 17, 2017 18:51
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Elyv posted:news from our dear leaders at wotc: quote:Dreams of delivering deep gameplay experiences in Magic worlds and fiction on diverse gaming platforms and genres. This sounds like a something from an email from a Nigerian prince.
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Feb 17, 2017 19:01
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Elyv posted:news from our dear leaders at wotc: I read this, closed the tab, and then thought, 'why did I close that? I didn't even read all of it.' I opened the link again and no, I read all of it, there just wasn't much of anything there.
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Feb 17, 2017 19:09
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Hellsau posted:I read this, closed the tab, and then thought, 'why did I close that? I didn't even read all of it.' I opened the link again and no, I read all of it, there just wasn't much of anything there. Thank you kindly for your reading of magic digital next. We hope our ambitions will soar to the newest heights.
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Feb 17, 2017 19:10
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Eh, that screenshot looks a million times better than modo.
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Feb 17, 2017 19:25
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Sickening posted:Eh, that screenshot looks a million times better than modo. It looks like duels which is worse than modo believe it or not.
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Feb 17, 2017 19:28
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If they keep everything that's bad about Magic Online unchanged but give it the Duels interface I am going to be over the moon. At how bad that is.
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Feb 17, 2017 19:32
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