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God told him to kill Iraqis, he should be in Ashworth Hospital, not anywhere near the Brexit debate. e: 1993 - The Conservative majority slims to a slither after a #libdemfightback in by-elections. Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 11:14
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awesome-express posted:External borders are necessary, tho. It's where you draw the line is kinda the sketchy part as you'll end up offending someone at some point. Why are external borders necessary?
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Feb 17, 2017 11:16
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It was the usual, flaccid centrist spiel of "Well we'll do bad thing, but just less bad, while also trying to desperately claw onto the staus quo and ignore the public discourse." Much like Blair himself it should be ignored as irrelevant.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:18
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I can't imagine many Leave voters would even bring themselves to listen to Blair, let alone allow themselves to be swayed by anything he says. Not any more, anyway.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:19
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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Kokoro Wish posted:It was the usual, flaccid centrist spiel of "Well we'll do bad thing, but just less bad, while also trying to desperately claw onto the staus quo and ignore the public discourse." Compared to the principled, resolute approach of 'doing the same thing as the Tory party'. I see.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:23
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Pissflaps posted:Compared to the principled, resolute approach of "Enacting the results of the referendum and vying during the two year process to push for a better set of deals". I see.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:26
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Tony Blair making the Tories renege on Brexit would probably be the funniest possible outcome.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:26
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You must have been busy during the article 50 bill's passage through the commons. Labour has given up on 'pushing' for anything.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:28
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forkboy84 posted:Why are external borders necessary? I've been trying to come up with an answer, retyping it 3 times now, but every iteration included something vaguely racist so maybe I need to rethink my reasoning. My initial thought was that ideally we shouldn't have any borders on our planet, provided everyone is content and financially secure. It would be awesome if everyone lived in their own home and had a stable job+family. However if you open up external borders right now you will see massive migrations of people from the least well-off countries to the most well-off blocs such as the US, Canada, Australia and the EU. This would create a lot of disruption. So I dunno, man.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:31
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forkboy84 posted:Why are external borders necessary? To control the movement of people and goods.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:33
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MikeCrotch posted:Also I love it when you get people like Farage saying that we need to control immigration while simultaneously saying we need to have closer ties with When people like him say that there's always an implicit, unsaid 'white' hovering in there, hth.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:36
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remember when blair had the self awareness to realise that any position he went for would negatively affect it but he'd do it anyway lol
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Feb 17, 2017 11:37
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Pissflaps posted:You must have been busy during the article 50 bill's passage through the commons. "Two year process"
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Feb 17, 2017 11:40
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Kokoro Wish posted:"Two year process" How many of those years will really count though? Like if it takes a year to get rid of corbyn then X number of months to get an adult in charge then thats a lot less than two years of process.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:41
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Kokoro Wish posted:"Two year process" What about it? What do you think is going to happen where Labour can exert some leverage on this process? Then next time Brexit is put to the Commons will be a rubber stamping exercise on the final deal.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:44
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Pissflaps posted:You must have been busy during the article 50 bill's passage through the commons. Labour has given up on 'pushing' for anything. Yes, they totally would have swung the whole electorate's opinions around by all magically voting against it, along with all those Tory rebels. Labour are hosed, yes, we all know. Guess what, they'd be hosed regardless of who is currently leading, and no matter what side they backed. The media and current bias by certain demographics after the constant demonising of certain groups of people has basically hosed it all for a few years yet. At least the next generation aren't quite as bad and don't want us to go back to the 1950s, so once most of the baby boomers are gone, we may even dare to hope that things go back to being a bit better. Hell, even the "fake news" bullshit may be an indicator of a slight drift back to reporting facts.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:44
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So it's not only the media that are biased against Corbyn it's now the demographics. Just got to wait for everyone that doesn't support labour to die. Labour is a farce and those that support Corbyn are increasingly ridiculous.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:46
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Kokoro Wish posted:"Two year process" *in extremely lib dem voice* Corbyn didn't magically transform into 325 people to force the Tories to adopt his sensible amendments, this means he isn't interested in getting a decent outcome
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Feb 17, 2017 11:47
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Tesseraction posted:*in extremely lib dem voice* Corbyn didn't magically transform into 325 people to force the Tories to adopt his sensible amendments, this means he isn't interested in getting a decent outcome Corbyn's 'decent outcome' is a Brexit of any flavour. That's why he doesn't oppose it.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:49
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He did oppose it. He just lost, like the rest of the Remain side. Mostly due to the hubris of a few. He performed admirably during the campaign drawing in over 60% of the Labour voters to Remain. But they still lost. So now it's time to respect democracy and enact the decision.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:51
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Guess what - Labour is a farce if it has to be like the Tories to win - I don't care if Corbyn is leading or not, and still waiting for a decent alternative. If you can't admit that those who still read papers are not influenced by constant "immigrants/poor/unemployed are the reason Britain is no longer great", then more power to you being one of that demographic as you literally can't see the bias. I would post that collection of the spiteful headlines by the usual suspects, but I'll put in the same effort that you did to my post.
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Feb 17, 2017 11:53
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Hot take: brexit could never have been stopped. the second the Tories won a majority government with the manifesto commitment to hold a referendum brexit was inevitable.
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Feb 17, 2017 12:04
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The thing that's really getting to me from the Moral Remainer side is both the complete lack of nuance or compromise from the position and the total absence of any kind of plan to get concessions from the Tories. Like the plan seems to be "shout loudly and constantly using the exact same arguments that failed to win the referendum and hope Britain wakes up from its collective stupor"? Is that really the best we can do? At least Corbyn's plan to tacitly agree with Brexit and try and soften it from within is a plan, which is more than i've heard from the Moral Remainers. Don't get me wrong, I would love to find a way to somehow remain, but someone's actually got to come up with a way to get there that isn't "continue to use the tactics that have already proved not to work".
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Feb 17, 2017 12:04
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Hot take 2: any chance of remaining after leave won was a hopeful dream because the Tories have a majority and seem very committed to pushing through the hardest brexit.
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Feb 17, 2017 12:06
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Kokoro Wish posted:He did oppose it. He just lost, like the rest of the Remain side. Mostly due to the hubris of a few. He performed admirably during the campaign drawing in over 60% of the Labour voters to Remain. I think the most persuasve argument on this I've heard came from my MP: Consider the inverse. Brexit vote was 52:48 remain. THe Tories plough ahead with leaving anyway. I don't think the outcome would have been quiet acceptance from the remain camp...
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Feb 17, 2017 12:15
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MikeCrotch posted:The thing that's really getting to me from the Moral Remainer side is both the complete lack of nuance or compromise from the position and the total absence of any kind of plan to get concessions from the Tories. What concessions have Labour won following their current strategy ??
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Feb 17, 2017 12:17
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thespaceinvader posted:I think the most persuasve argument on this I've heard came from my MP: You're right that UKIP would have been kicking up a fuss about that, maybe even louder than the SNP + Lib Dem hard remain side, but it still wouldn't have got them anywhere, other than agitating for a new referendum from now to eternity, plus maybe getting half a dozen MPs.
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Feb 17, 2017 12:23
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People angry that Blaire said Brexit bad. Even complete shitlords can say really obvious things. You don't have to object to them guys.
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Feb 17, 2017 12:32
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Guavanaut posted:Surely the inverse would be Brexit vote was 52:48 remain, Parliament says "okay, that's a done deal, remain forever" Precisely my point. Whether the refernedum was fought honestly and honourably (it wasn't), and whetherr it's the best thing for the UK or not (it's not), brexit is coming. Absent a crash election in the next month, we can't stop it, and wasting effort on trying to is just that.. We have to work our hardest to ameliorate it instead.
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Feb 17, 2017 12:35
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Tony Blair posted:we have moved in a few months from a debate about what sort of Brexit, involving a balanced consideration of all the different possibilities, to the primacy of one consideration – namely controlling immigration from the EU – without any real discussion as to why and when Brexit doesn’t affect the immigration people most care about. Blair is a racist gently caress whose argument is the loudest loving dog whistle I've ever heard. His whole approach is to try and get people to separate EU imagination (white) from the immigration they 'care about' stopping (non-white, Muslim, a threat to our security). gently caress him and anyone who thinks demonising immigrants to get what you want is STILL a good idea.
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Feb 17, 2017 12:37
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hakimashou posted:How many of those years will really count though? Corbyn may be a bad leader but he's the most adult person in the commons. Maybe it's why he's so bad. Politics is a child's game. The aim is to obtain/steal all the toys before mummy (an asteroid) puts them back in the box.
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Feb 17, 2017 12:42
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jabby posted:Blair is a racist gently caress whose argument is the loudest loving dog whistle I've ever heard. His whole approach is to try and get people to separate EU imagination (white) from the immigration they 'care about' stopping (non-white, Muslim, a threat to our security). gently caress him and anyone who thinks demonising immigrants to get what you want is STILL a good idea. Chuka Umunna should change his Wikipedia page from "The British Barack Obama" to "The Black Tony Blair"
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Feb 17, 2017 12:43
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I don't give a gently caress how racist Tony "mothafuka" Blair is if he can stop Brexit. He probably can't but if he does then good for him. The piece of poo poo.
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Feb 17, 2017 12:45
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Regarde Aduck posted:I don't give a gently caress how racist Tony "mothafuka" Blair is if he can stop Brexit. 
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Feb 17, 2017 12:46
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Regarde Aduck posted:Corbyn may be a bad leader but he's the most adult person in the commons.
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Feb 17, 2017 12:48
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Regarde Aduck posted:I don't give a gently caress how racist Tony "mothafuka" Blair is if he can stop Brexit. I care
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Feb 17, 2017 12:50
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jabby posted:Blair is a racist gently caress whose argument is the loudest loving dog whistle I've ever heard. His whole approach is to try and get people to separate EU imagination (white) from the immigration they 'care about' stopping (non-white, Muslim, a threat to our security). gently caress him and anyone who thinks demonising immigrants to get what you want is STILL a good idea. It's working for the Tories and the brexit though. Tony Blair knows how to win elections in Great Britain. If the working class is anti immigrant and the Labour Party is going to represent the working class, what other way can it be? People bond more quickly and more strongly over shared dislikes than over shared likes. Labour and the working class might both like the NHS but if someone else (like say, Ukip and the tories) comes along and says they don't like immigration either, then you've got a problem. Plus the right wing has never had a problem, in any time or place, with convincing people that some thing they already don't like is a threat to all the stuff they do like. "Immigrants are going to bankrupt the NHS, immigrants are why you can't get a good job, immigrants make you stub your toe and immigrants make the trains late." You guys might have to bite the bullet and make the best of a bad situation if things keep going like this and you do t want the tories to have their way with the country for an extended period. You might have to decide between being the party of the Workers of the World and the party of the British Working Class. If it's what the working class wants you aren't going to be able to make it go away.
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Feb 17, 2017 12:51
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All over the world, the people who voted for centrist, neo-liberal bullshit and were negatively effected by it (mostly the working classes and poorer communities), are now seeing how it has impacted them and it is badly. They watch the class divide grow, their jobs disappear and the economy that is apparently great leave them far behind while people in richer areas call them skivers and denounce them as racist colloquials and they feel like strangers in their own land. So they vote to give the middle finger to those people. That centrist politics is dead to them and you aren't getting their votes because they've lived with the results and they are poo poo. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 12:53
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Kokoro Wish posted:He did oppose it. He just lost, like the rest of the Remain side. Mostly due to the hubris of a few. He performed admirably during the campaign drawing in over 60% of the Labour voters to Remain. I am yet to be convinced whether this was a good tactical decision or not, but what it makes completely clear is that Labour still have absolutely no idea how to deal with the eternal contradiction of political parties being at the same time electoral vehicles and ideologues. IMO a lot of Corbyn's supporters tend towards the latter which is why a lot of people are so pissed off about this. I think it has finished him, not tomorrow but soon. Hopefully the ideologues get something out of it in the long run. Edit: When considering whether your argument is a good one, replace brexit with the death penalty. Don't know about you but I sure as hell would not want the political party I support voting for it, not matter how much the public wanted it. A lot of people feel the same way about this. hakimashou posted:If the working class is anti immigrant and the Labour Party is going to represent the working class, what other way can it be? It could say what it actually thinks. I know it's terrible at leading anything currently but it has to at least agree that it has some sort of political leadership role. The working class are pro screwing themselves over economically at the moment, should Labour support that too? Oh they already did.... Zalakwe fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 12:54
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Regarde Aduck posted:Corbyn may be a bad leader but he's the most adult person in the commons. Maybe it's why he's so bad. Politics is a child's game. The aim is to obtain/steal all the toys before mummy (an asteroid) puts them back in the box. I dunno. Maybe he's like a kid naively acting the way he thinks an adult should act while all the adults know they're supposed to boo and bang on their desks and whistle at each other and poo poo in parliament.
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Feb 17, 2017 12:54
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